SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

Re: CC build plan

Option 1
T178 3N, CF, GM, PM
T179 3N, CF, GM, PM, scientist
T180 3N, CF, GM, PM, scientist
T181 3N, CF, GM, PM, scientist
T182 3N, CF (4 pop whip of National Epic)
T183 3N, CF
T184 3N, CF, coast
T185 3N, CF, 2 scientists
T186 3N, CF, 2 scientists
T187 3N, CF, 2 scientists,
T188 3N, CF, 2 scientists, coast
T189 3N, CF, 2 scientists, coast (Great Person born) 66% GS, 22% GM, 7% GE, 5% GA

Option 2
T178 3N, CF, GM, PM
T179 3N, CF, GM, PM, coast
T180 3N, CF, GM, PM, coast
T181 3N, CF, GM, PM, coast
T182 3N, CF, GM, PM, coast
T183 3N, CF, PM, 3 coast
T184 3N, CF, GM, PM, engineer, 2 coast (Settler) might have 1
T185 3N, CF, GM, PM, whip
T186 3N, CF, GM, PM
T187 3N, CF, GM, PM
T188 3N, CF, GM, PM, engineer? (not necessary probably if we don't have 1 on T184)
T189 3N, CF, GM, PM, scientist
T190 3N, CF, GM, PM, scientist (NE finishes)
1st great person born T194 (2% GA, 67% GS, 22% GM, 9% GE)

I perfer option 1 even though we whip a wonder. Getting the NE early allows us to run scientists and reduce the odds of an engineer. It gets us a great person 5 turns earlier lets FH take the PM. Yes we don't get a settler, but what is limiting our game right now I think is tech rate. An extra settler is nice but getting our great person pump going faster is more important I think.

CC is left with a similar population with either option

Variations on both options are possible. We could grow CC on coast tiles instead of running scientists in CC which would delay the great person, but grow CC faster. This would enable 1 or 2 more specialists to be run when we do switch to caste system and pacifism. We might run into happiness limits (but probably not with upcoming religion, fur backup, spices and other happiness coming soonish.)

While this delay does make some sense to me, getting the great person early allows us to decide what to do with it. For example if we get the low odds Great Artist we might run a Golden Age in time for the switch to caste and pacifism and a religion. Or an academy earlier helps more obviously.

edit upon further reflection it is silly to run the scientists before the NE is built for sure
Option 3
T178 3N, CF, GM, PM
T179 3N, CF, GM, PM, coast
T180 3N, CF, GM, PM, coast
T181 3N, CF, GM, PM, coast
T182 3N, CF (4 pop whip of National Epic)
T183 3N, CF scientist
T184 3N, CF, scientist
T185 3N, CF, scientist, coast
T186 3N, CF, scientist, GM
T187 3N, CF, 2 scientists, coast
T188 3N, CF, 2 scientists, engineer
T189 3N, CF, 2 scientists, coast (Great Person born) 65% GS, 23% GM, 8% GE, 4% GA

This post is now finished, and I believe does everything that bc's (edited) post #1619 does, plus some minor improvements, and covers the discussion up to #1630, too. There's a spreadsheet and PDF for tile usage, too.

bcool said:

Okay using mabraham's test game I was able to improve my reported results a bit

here are screenshots laying out the war/galley plan I'm proposing. Each screenshot is at the end of the listed turn. And I've copied the plan over into spoilers below.

Click to expand...

Looks good - I have some minor improvements and clarifications. I have added notes about what the rest of the empire should be doing. I like bc's option three for CC. Vicky's workers building the iron fort will have finished long before we DOW, who knows where they'll be...

T178



T179



T180


T181



T182



T183



T184



T185
Pre-DOW image



T186

bcool said:

Edit: also I realized that in my new test game I didn't put in the iron for vicky so mabraham's update lacks Vicky's 2nd iron in the east (I worldbuilt it in while making the screenshots). She has the iron to the NE in his test game.

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Yeah I saw the missing iron, but didn't know what you meant by it, and didn't comment either, sorry.

mabraham said:

T178 Trireme should be SE+2S of Argo to fog bust. PC needs to remember to switch Pmine to coast to grow faster. BF switch copper to citizen to enable 2-whip next turn to build cat+axe over next two turns. GH switch to prepare to whip trireme. Trireme near CC should start to move east.

Click to expand...

I'll let ron merge these recommendations. I was focusing on the galley movements. switching the copper to a citizen this turn is better than how I was doing it though.

T179 Argo should be defended with a trireme S+SE of it (also doing fog busting). The two swords on the tip should move separately to the forest and the gold to get better fog busting. We don't want barb galleys spawning. This means that one of these swords can't load on a galley T181, but we have other swords further north that can be loaded. The sword that went to the gold still has time to get to the rally point. Not sure what this does to the 3XP-sword position, will test. That messed with the sword position. Instead, the 0XP axe should back-track to the gold, while the 0XP swords move together along the coast to their pick-up point. Second trireme in the east move to PC2, to accompany Argo next turn.

Click to expand...

I was just moving the units on the land directly towards the DOW point except on turns when they had to load onto galleys of course. I didn't notice any unusual movements were necessary to make sure they could load the galleys.

T180 A trireme should still be SE+2S of PC2. Other trireme supports Argo. When SM builds wealth for a turn, switch to coast, not Gmine. Chop in PC will finish sword for next turn.

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Sure a wealth build while we wait for code of laws to finish makes sense. And working coast makes sense. I editted out my comment about whipping the sword, the chop does finish the sword in PC in plenty of time.

T181 Trireme should be 2S of BF5. bc had a bunch of contortions here to get the two 0XP cats to the front line. Life is simpler if New Galley just picks up one 0XP cat from the galley chain and the other from where it was dumped in PC. Also, he had Argo and Nautilus swapping places for no reason I could see. The forward element can keep moving forward to scout. SM gets its fish back. We should give away our iron in preparation for some warrior building.

Click to expand...

Okay so as New Galley moves through PC it can offload the axe from the galley chain, and pick up the catapult. Then the sword and axe can be brought on Kon-Tiki the next turn and fed into the galley chain. I edited the galley plan to reflect this.

The benefit of bringing Argo back and dropping off its catapults is that it allows me to deliver the sword and axe to the land rally point (the marble)
If you have Argo just continue on then you can't get those last units there ready to move by T185. My plan I have 3 swords 2 axe & 2 catapults ready to walk into Vicky's land on T185. If Argo goes forward to scout, you can't do this. This is the biggest and most important result of my galley plan.

bcool said:

Okay so as New Galley moves through PC it can offload the axe from the galley chain, and pick up the catapult. Then the sword and axe can be brought on Kon-Tiki the next turn and fed into the galley chain. I edited the galley plan to reflect this.

The benefit of bringing Argo back and dropping off its catapults is that it allows me to deliver the sword and axe to the land rally point (the marble)
If you have Argo just continue on then you can't get those last units there ready to move by T185. My plan I have 3 swords 2 axe & 2 catapults ready to walk into Vicky's land on T185. If Argo goes forward to scout, you can't do this. This is the biggest and most important result of my galley plan.

Click to expand...

Argo continues on with the swords it picked up that turn. I still deliver the last units on T184 in time for a single stack to walk. You had Argo going back and Nautilus going forward across the same tiles on one turn. I've harnessed that time to move the front element of the beach-head force forward.

See updated post above.

bcool said:

I was just moving the units on the land directly towards the DOW point except on turns when they had to load onto galleys of course. I didn't notice any unusual movements were necessary to make sure they could load the galleys.

Click to expand...

Correct, but I want an unusual movement of an axeman onto the gold hill on T179 (I think) to fog-bust for a turn before he heads to the T184 rally point.

There are improvements but the post still needs editing.

for clarity's sake you may want to fix the links for integrated T179 and T181 screenshots. It is also confusing that you mislabeled? or skipped T180 with the screenshots in this post that you have now indicated is finished.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10472696&postcount=1622

Also your screenshots show the axe not in position on T185 near the eastern Iron, you can get both axes in position by T184, if they go north towards the road between Nottingham and London. I think you show the southern axe in Vicky's cultural borders on T178 go east which is a longer path than taking the roads thru London. That southern axe is destined for the iron to the SE, the northern axe in Vicky's borders can make it to the eastern iron by T184. Edit: I guess this doesn't matter since the axe teleports into position on T185 with DoW, I thought there was some risk it would teleport diagonally, but it doesn't in the test game.

bcool said:

There are improvements but the post still needs editing.

for clarity's sake you may want to fix the links for integrated T179 and T181 screenshots. It is also confusing that you mislabeled? or skipped T180 with the screenshots in this post that you have now indicated is finished.

Click to expand...

Agreed. The BBcode was right when I wrote it, but it seems sometimes the image indices in the database get rearranged... the links all work for me now.

bcool said:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10472696&postcount=1622

Also your screenshots show the axe not in position on T185 near the eastern Iron, you can get both axes in position by T184, if they go north towards the road between Nottingham and London. I think you show the southern axe in Vicky's cultural borders on T178 go east which is a longer path than taking the roads thru London. That southern axe is destined for the iron to the SE, the northern axe in Vicky's borders can make it to the eastern iron by T184. Edit: I guess this doesn't matter since the axe teleports into position on T185 with DoW, I thought there was some risk it would teleport diagonally, but it doesn't in the test game.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately I made an error back on T175 in splitting the pair of axes onto two desert tiles back on the western tip of Vicky's land, thinking it didn't matter. The two 1-tile lakes near Hastings prevent them rejoining at any point. So the southern axe may as well take this longer route and gather intelligence - its extra turn "off-road" is equivalent to the time wasted walking back north to get to the Nottingham-London road.

inconsistency here in T181 still

T181
GH trireme to near CC.
Start courthouses in PC and BF.
SM gets its fish back.
We should give away our iron in preparation for some warrior building.
Ferry BF2 (after it picks up axe and catapult from BF)
Kon-Tiki BF3 (after picking up catapult from Ferry and catapult from PC)
Sword from PC can load onto Kon-Tiki this turn
New Galley BF4 (with two catapults from Kon-Tiki)
Argo drops off 2 cats and picks up 2 swords and moves to PC4 with trireme
Other trireme should be 2S of BF5.
Nautilus to BF5

Click to expand...

Kon-Tiki is picking up axe and catapult from Ferry so the axe can not offload from Kon-Tiki this turn. It must drop off the axe and pick up the catapult in PC as it passes thru the city on T182.

something is wrong here not exactly sure what yet.
I believe this is what actually has to happen...
Okay so Kon-Tiki picks up the axe and catapult from Ferry
New Galley picks up the axe and catapult from Kon-Tiki, then moves to PC. It offloads the axe and picks up the catapult in PC while in the city. Then it moves to BF4.

bcool said:

inconsistency here in T181 still



Kon-Tiki is picking up axe and catapult from Ferry so the axe can not offload from Kon-Tiki this turn. It must drop off the axe and pick up the catapult in PC as it passes thru the city on T182.

something is wrong here not exactly sure what yet.
I believe this is what actually has to happen...
Okay so Kon-Tiki picks up the axe and catapult from Ferry
New Galley picks up the axe and catapult from Kon-Tiki, then moves to PC. It offloads the axe and picks up the catapult in PC while in the city. Then it moves to BF4.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's equivalent to what I was struggling to suggest in the T181 text (which is now edited) - the image for end T181 is right.

Either the axe can stay on K-T and the sword can board that turn, or the axe can get dropped in PC by NG (before it loads the second cat) and K-T picks up axe and sword next turn. Because K-T is transporting the sword and axe next, it doesn't matter what turn they load - but getting them on board ASAP gives us the option of off-loading on the horse at the end of next turn, should circumstances demand it.

mabraham said:

Yes, that's equivalent to what I was struggling to suggest in the T181 text (which is now edited) - the image for end T181 is right.

Either the axe can stay on K-T and the sword can board that turn, or the axe can get dropped in PC by NG (before it loads the second cat) and K-T picks up axe and sword next turn. Because K-T is transporting the sword and axe next, it doesn't matter what turn they load - but getting them on board ASAP gives us the option of off-loading on the horse at the end of next turn, should circumstances demand it.

Click to expand...

Ok sure, the original text wasn't clear, it works now.

bc and I were looking at the number of hammers generated by the whip of the NE and the result per head whipped was inconsistent with the result bc recalled for the Colossus. This turned out to be true when we looked at it.

It turns out that the penalty for hurrying wonders (by the various mechanisms) is not a uniform 50% penalty. It's specified by iHurryCostModifier in Assets/XML/Buildings/CIV4BuildingInfos.xml. That number is used as

modified_hurry_cost = cost / (1+iHurryCostModifier/100)

Most wonders have value 100 (i.e. half value from whipping), but some national wonders have value 50 - specifically HE, NE, GT, NP, Hermitage and OU. That works out as two-thirds value from whipping - and this agrees with what occurs in the test game. FYI, some late-game great wonders have value 200. AP, UN and Space Elevator have value 300.

What is your total troop count on the tiles at London on T187 EoT?

My plan can get 12 units there. See Screenie please

I think this gives us a reasonable chance to take York also, and Nottingham is possible with another 2-3 reinforcement units. With 4-5 more total units added to the continent we should be able to wipe her out easily.

Ronnie1 said:

What is your total troop count on the tiles at London on T187 EoT?

Click to expand...

Not enough. We can do twelve on T188. Two 0XP cats and two 0xp swords on the forest. Axe from the iron on whichever tile looks right. Two 3XP cats, three 3-5XP swords and two 0XP axes walking from Hastings area.

Ronnie1 said:

My plan can get 12 units there. See Screenie please

Click to expand...

Why are you able to DOW T184? Are you using the tundra staging point NW of London?

Each of bc and I has found various improvements on ideas the other has thought of, so we can probably do the same for your plan when we know what it is.

Ronnie1 said:

I think this gives us a reasonable chance to take York also, and Nottingham is possible with another 2-3 reinforcement units. With 4-5 more total units added to the continent we should be able to wipe her out easily.

Click to expand...

From the plan I posted above, on the current test game, Vicky was whipping triremes and cats and I took London and York with plenty to spare for the rest. I think the real game will likely permit us to take York, but I do not think there is anywhere from which is reasonable for us to get more units. I am concerned she might get Feudalism while we're walking to London or York...

Each of bc and I has found various improvements on ideas the other has thought of, so we can probably do the same for your plan when we know what it is.

Click to expand...

I just kept everything moving forward ASAP including the Archer in PC. I whipped the Cat in PC on T180 and pushed him forward. At the start of T184 I have 2 galleys with full movement in the north sea and the 3rd in Nottingham. I move the Axe in York at the start of the turn 1 NE so he ports next to the Iron, I move the Galley in Nott 2 NE so it ports out with the other 2 galleys when I DoW. I then move the the 2 galleys that have all their movement to drop the 4 units on the forest. The last 2 cats drop the next turn. Everyone marches in or does the pillaging and by start of T188 I can attack at very good odds.

I played it without taking exact notes, more a proof of concept run through. But I can recreate it surely. I assume the test game I downloaded and used has accurate tile counts so I didn't cheat without knowing....it looks right to me at first glance.

Interesting - you made more use of DOW teleports. The games are equivalent except that on T184 the our two units were in a galley on BF6 and dumped on the stack. Yours started on BF7. I wonder if I can eke that out of our plan - then we can re-use some part of the existing documentation. Will try it.

We think the #1618 test game is right, apart from Vicky's eastern iron.

After much thought, I found a way to achieve the equivalent of R1's DOW position. I didn't like having three galleys committed NW of London, such that one would be sure to be undefended, lest a stray trireme from Vicky (or barb galley) ruin our whole day. Also, I couldn't see any way to get units from BF on T181 and land them on the marble T183 without using three galleys - and thus there could only be two galleys further forward at the end of T183.

The key point of this plan is that the last units out of BF don't get galley-chained straight away. Instead, they walk onto New Galley T181 and it moves. It moves T182 and they move to PC, where Ferry waits for them to chain to Nautilus. On T183 Nautilus arrives next to the marble and dumps them off.

There's no way to avoid one of the 3XP cats being on the "bombarding" force (because the other 0XP cat was only built in BF on T180...), but we can live with that for a 1-turn earlier DOW. Both the covering swords are 0XP, which I think we want.

My trireme positions in the screenshots below are a bit random, and would get more thought in a real game. The important thing is that they stay inside the movement envelope to reach the end-of-T183 position.

I tried to vary the RNG a bit by changing the number of tiles on which barbs could spawn IBT T183->4, but each time my DOW teleports went to the same spots. Weirdly, the eastern axe teleports to the hill next to the iron, but that does the job for us...

The option does exist on T179 to swap K-T's cats onto Nautilus (which still has movement points) and then to Argo, who links up with a trireme. This surges the first boat units forward, for no real cost. It even simplifies the appearance east of PC.

The cost for all this is that New Galley cannot get back in time to stop Stevenson wasting some worker turns. I don't think this will delay the Moai. I think we still want GH to whip a trireme T179 so the CC trireme can move east. Maybe FH can put a turn on galley T181, switch back to WB to finish T182 (now that it has the Pmine), and 2-whip the galley on T183.

Very nice I think we have successfully combined ideas from all 3 of us to get a better plan. With props to mabraham for putting it all together in cohesive whole.

This is what I understand mabraham's latest proposal with the option to send Nautilus ahead is for DOW T184

T178
Ferry moves to BF2 with a catapult
New Galley moves to Stone Mountain
Kon-Tiki remains at BF3 (can't move) but a catapult is loaded onto it from PC
Nautilus moves to BF4
Argo moves to PC2

necessary city build actions for the war plan
switch PMine to coast in PC
switch Copper mine to citizen in BF
switch Golden Hills to build Trireme

T179
Ferry moves to BF3 gives catapult to Kon-Tiki
New Galley moves to BF1
Kon-Tiki moves to BF4 and gives 2 catapults to Nautilus
Nautilus moves to BF5 with 2 catapults from Kon-Tiki
Argo remains at PC2

Necessary city builds for war plan
whip catapult in PC, finish chop of northern forest near PC
whip trireme in Golden Hills
whip catapult in BF

T180
Ferry moves to PC1 with catapult
New Galley remains at BF1
Kon-Tiki remains at BF4
Nautilus moves to BF6 with 2 catapults
Argo remains at PC2

T181 (the complicated turn)
New Galley moves to BF2 (with catapult and axe from BF)
Ferry gets a sword from PC, moves to give sword and catapult to Kon-Tiki, then moves back to go inside of PC
Kon-Tiki gets sword and catapult from Ferry, moves to PC2 and gives Argo the cat and sword, then moves back to 3East of PC
Nautilus moves to BF7 with 2 catapults
Argo gets catapult and sword from Kon-Tiki and moves to PC3

T182
New Galley moves to BF3 and unloads the catapult and axe to PC
Ferry loads catapult and axe from PC and moves 3E of PC to give catapult and axe to Kon-Tiki
Kon-Tiki gets catapult and axe from Ferry moves to 6E of PC
Nautilus moves to position northwest of London with 2 catapults
Argo drops off a catapult, picks up a sword from Vicky's island then moves to PC4

recommended
switch to galley build before workboat finishes in FH

T183
New Galley moves to BF2 (western most position) empty going back to help with workers and MP
Ferry moves back to PC1 (to pick up worker and archer next turn)
Kon-Tiki moves to 9E of PC (1W of Marble) and unloads the catapult and axe to the stack
Nautilus remains in position northwest of London
Argo moves to position 3W and 2N of London (and will relay on teleport to get into position with DoW on T184)

T184 DoW
stack on marble (2 catapults, 2 axe, 3 swords) moves to hill NW of Hastings towards London
Argo and Nautilus teleport 4N 4W of London and moves 3 to drop 2 catapults and 2 swords to forest north of London.
axe in the NE is ready to move onto NE iron and pillage next turn
axe in the East is teleported next to the Eastern Iron and possibly catches the workers on the Eastern Iron fort.

Here is a test game save from the turn before I want to assault London.

This is how I want to play it.

This way gets 2 more Cats to London and allows culture to be 0 the turn of the attack. I lead my assault with a CD1 Promoted Cat and follow with either an CR1 Cat or my CR2 Sword depending on odds.

Obviously Vicky's units are not accurate because of RNG and other facors, but what I did with our boats after they dropped troops is more or less what I will do if Vicky reacts in a similar way.

This test game is accurate with 1 exception, Fh is behind by 1 on its current build and it is also -10 on a WB.

Research, I didn't really pay attention to anything past CoL as that is easily changed. In the save I have been working Compass at 0%, I was also able in the test game to trade CoL+ some gold for Calendar. If I get that opportunity in the real game I will probably take it also. My thinking was if we get a GS as our next GPers we can bulb Philo. I would understand if we didn't want to take that risk though.

There are also test game saves for every turn leading to this point.

Here are the first couple turns, FH is wrong here as I was making adjustments to get it closer to the real game.