Babylon overrated?

johnny_rudeboy · Sep 17, 2014

I am not 100% sure on this but when you bulb a GS you get the science worth of your last 8 turns. If you get 100 beakers per turn and bulb your GS you should get a science boost of 800 beakers. That is 100 turns worth of an academy. So as Babylon it is wise to plant your first 2-3 GS for academies (since they both cost to have around and you need to have a good base for science) then save the rest for when you have your research labs. I have planted more then that but that are in games when I have managed to get the Hanging gardens (free garden) and some way of getting a lot of faith (so that I can buy GS in the industrial era).

Esperr · Sep 17, 2014

Yes that is correct, a bulb is your last eight turns if science, however mathematically unless your game is going 350 plus, you should only plant that first gs and wait to bulb the rest.

Acken · Sep 17, 2014

johnny_rudeboy said:
I am not 100% sure on this but when you bulb a GS you get the science worth of your last 8 turns. If you get 100 beakers per turn and bulb your GS you should get a science boost of 800 beakers. That is 100 turns worth of an academy. So as Babylon it is wise to plant your first 2-3 GS for academies (since they both cost to have around and you need to have a good base for science) then save the rest for when you have your research labs. I have planted more then that but that are in games when I have managed to get the Hanging gardens (free garden) and some way of getting a lot of faith (so that I can buy GS in the industrial era).

It's your 8 last turns, at the moment of the bulb. So you don't compare the bulb value now vs the cumulated value of the academy. You compare the bulb value THEN (which goes up in the 10K after labs) to the cumulated value of the academy.

The complete maths analysis is more complex than that since you have to take modifiers into account for the academy, turns won on science techs, and the value of other GS increases when you bulb. I have done a basic analysis in one of my lets play thread, it remains incomplete though. It's not that hard to put down but it would require a bit of time.

phillipwyllie · Sep 17, 2014

The most that an academy can produce with multipliers and social policies is 52.8 :c5science:

which equates to an extra 422.4 :c5science:

in a bulb. If you are planning to win within 100 turns of researching Atomic Theory that is an extra 5280 :c5science:

.Highly unlikely I think as you would build your SS much earlier than that.

Consider this: you reach Scientific Theory on t150 and plan to win by t300. Somehow you mange to unlock 'New Deal' (impossible I know but bear with me)on the same turn making your academy produce 46.2 :c5science:

,that will generate 6930 :c5science:

over those 150 turns. Once labs are up you will most definitely be bulbing more.

In my experience the lions share of :c5science:

comes from :c5citizen:

, multipliers, and bulbs not terrain.

Illianor123 · Sep 17, 2014

phillipwyllie said:
The most that an academy can produce with multipliers and social policies is 52.8 which equates to an extra 422.4 in a bulb. If you are planning to win within 100 turns of researching Atomic Theory that is an extra 5280 .Highly unlikely I think as you would build your SS much earlier than that.

Consider this: you reach Scientific Theory on t150 and plan to win by t300. Somehow you mange to unlock 'New Deal' (impossible I know but bear with me)on the same turn making your academy produce 46.2 ,that will generate 6930 over those 150 turns. Once labs are up you will most definitely be bulbing more.

In my experience the lions share of comes from , multipliers, and bulbs not terrain.

Though the point of planting the first 1-2 is to help you get to the science buildings earlier, as well to be compete on science with the AIs throughout the game rather than always being so far behind and so you can pass them in tech and get the first ideology.
Turn 300 seems slow for a pure science victory.

Acken · Sep 17, 2014

You can include the science value of those earlier science buildings in a mathematical analysis. I have not the time right now.

But as a starting framework you can go from this napkin start of an analysis:

Acken said:
I've never been sure about academies (unless the free one from babylon). Let's say you get one at T115, assuming ST at turn 150. Before modifiers, it gives you 8 for 35 turns, then 10 for 25 (before New Deal in Freedom), then 14 for around 25 turns. And finally 16 for the last 20ish turns with atomic theory.

With modifiers, assuming Free thought at 150 and labs at 175 it means you get total (let's also add a observatory and NC of course):
(8*35*2.33 + 10*25*2.5 + 14*25*3 + 16*20*3)*1.1 = 3615.7

So in theory I'd say an academy is at least better than bulbing for ST (or other stuff in that time period) in pure science. Since at this time you usually have only 2800 from a bulb. But that is not the whole picture.

If you don't plan to bulb ST anyway, it's highly questionable. Bulbing at plastic is around 6000 science, bulbing at the end is between 9000 and 11000 depending on your bpt.

The question would be then how much they accelerate the acquisition of plastics and scientific theory.

Using same numbers, you get a total of 717.64 before ST. That means you'd get ST only around 2 turns faster. Bulbing ST instead will give it around 6-7 turns earlier.
Between ST and plastics (25 turns) we are looking at a produced science of 687.5 from the academy. Which is probably not even a turn of extra science. After Plastics we're making 2211 science so it's worth around 2 turns. Overall we have won 5 turns plus whatever extra science getting ST and plastics a couple turns faster is worth.

Finally academies add another source of science, they make bulbs bigger. If we bulb 10 scientists the end game amount would be at best 16*3*8*10*1.1 = 4224. That amount is worth 3-4 turns of science so I'm getting back half of a bulb. But it's likely lower since you often bulb before atomic theory and sometimes you'll use one for plastics.

And I think I've used a base case scenario for academies: New deal, Observatory.

As a conclusion I'd say, make one if you want but don't bulb ST in that case. And no more than 1.

There is no doubt to me that making academies with every GS before ST is certainly a fallacy I've seen repeated on these forums.

From http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=532263

phillipwyllie · Sep 18, 2014

Illianor123 said:
....Turn 300 seems slow for a pure science victory...

Indeed, I was being kind to academies giving them more time to be useful.

Illianor123 said:
Though the point of planting the first 1-2 is to help you get to the science buildings earlier....

As Babylon we always bulb our Writing GS as that gives significant reduction in tech time for those early tech which results in being many turns ahead in tech(or catching up on Deity). Pre ST academies give a maximum of 20 :c5science:

which is ~2% of a Renaissance tech, and ~1% of an Industrial tech. From Education to ST it takes 6240(base cost) :c5science:

.Usually I'm generating around 250 :c5science:

when I unlock 'Secularism' and all specialists are worked so that equates to 3.12 bulbs, or 312 academies.

tinculin · Sep 18, 2014

If you are debating the most efficient use of GS you need to debate it in a competitive timeframe if turns. Winning a SV in 250+ turns is not hugely competitive when there are recorded games sub 200.

Your bpt does not reach a peak until ~10 turns after lab are complete and if it's taking you much after 180 to get there then you won't get a sub 200 SV.

How much faster does planting GS get you to philosophy/education/scientific theory etc? That is what needs balancing out vs the bulbing of a GS

Acken · Sep 18, 2014

Sub200 is over ambitious, this hasn't been down above prince since the last patch (that I know of). And even though it's possible in theory it requires a perfect start with a perfect civ which is like almost never unless you're rerolling for a HoF record. If you want to talk about competitive times, sub 220/230 is a more realistic benchmark for 95% of the games out there.

Also the time for the first GS is already start/civ dependant. What matters is only the interval of time between your first non-free GS (10ish turn after first univ if no GL) and the end. So it is perfectly okay to value Academy on a 220 turns game for me if you consider education univ to be created in the 100-110 area. A 110 to 120 turns interval of time is competitive enough to make the analysis valid.

And babylon free GS isn't even up for debate, plant it.

Rathelm · Sep 19, 2014

If you play any start that's given to you a sub 300 win is pretty damn tough. Almost anything will push you back 50 turns, like starting next to Atilla. A really good food start with mountains and peaceful neighbors. Sure, but you can still mess it up.

CivHeretic · Sep 20, 2014

phillipwyllie said:
I know but I'm probably not using Nebby right, perhaps someone could do a Lp

Babylon is easy, and depending on your difficulty setting can easily be OP.
There are a few wonders you should try for just for the GS points.

#1) Great Library - This might be the ONLY one that is optional, depending on your start (2 mines and 1 forest at least is needed in Emp+)

#2 Oracle - This one is a must grab for two reasons, 1) the AI almost never goes for it, 2) Free SP is worth it.

#3 Red Fort - 2 GS points, after you stack bonuses you can get 10 GS points per turn from it. Pretty damn good IMO

johnny_rudeboy · Sep 20, 2014

CivHeretic said:
Babylon is easy, and depending on your difficulty setting can easily be OP.
There are a few wonders you should try for just for the GS points.

#1) Great Library - This might be the ONLY one that is optional, depending on your start (2 mines and 1 forest at least is needed in Emp+)

#2 Oracle - This one is a must grab for two reasons, 1) the AI almost never goes for it, 2) Free SP is worth it.

#3 Red Fort - 2 GS points, after you stack bonuses you can get 10 GS points per turn from it. Pretty damn good IMO

Porcelain Tower also give 2 GS points. Brandebburg gate to in the industrial era but it is on the low end of the tech tree.

Acken · Sep 20, 2014

I've got to see how you transform 2GS points per turn into 10.

AlyfoxLP · Sep 25, 2014

I like Babylon quite a bit, my only complaint is that their awesome Bowmen get replaced with composite bowmen rather quickly, even on epic games, at least that I've found. I kinda wish I could get a game speed slower than epic b ut not as slow as marathon, so that I can make more use of certain units.

johnny_rudeboy · Sep 25, 2014

AlyfoxLP said:
I like Babylon quite a bit, my only complaint is that their awesome Bowmen get replaced with composite bowmen rather quickly, even on epic games, at least that I've found. I kinda wish I could get a game speed slower than epic b ut not as slow as marathon, so that I can make more use of certain units.

I usually build a bunch of them but dont upgrade them to CB but wait until my economy is better with some trade routs up and running then double upgrade them to x-bows once I reach machinery. Save some much needed early game cash that be used to buy libraries and what not. They have the same strength and only 2 less in range strength compared to the cb so the upgrade is imo not worth it.

Babylon overrated?

johnny_rudeboy

Warlord

Esperr

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Acken

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phillipwyllie

Wannabe Deity

Illianor123

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Acken

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phillipwyllie

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tinculin

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Acken

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Rathelm

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johnny_rudeboy

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