What gives better science, order or freedom

tetley said:

I don't see how Spain is clearly an order civ.

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I was a bit confused when I read that as well. Spain is just a generic civ with the potential for a massive early gold/tile snowball. With certain rolls Spain is totally incomparable, but I don't see how that has anything to do with ideology.

Let me give you an example of a wide science-game with liberty/rationalism/freedom. Egypt, deity, pangea. Peaceful 8 cities. SV turn 229. I'm not that good of a player. With better micro it could have been 220- 225, but I goofed the tech order, failed to get cultural city states, flunked the espionage and suboptimised the endgame. Also notice that I missed a lot of wonders as Egypt. I got Oracle, Porcelain Tower, Statue of Liberty, Hubble and Broadway; I missed out on Petra (went turn 60) which would have snowballed into a huge wonder-capital with Egypt Pyramids, Borobodur and Tower of Pisa.

My cities are at 25, 17, 17, 16, 16, 14 and 12 but I still make 1750 science/turn and generate a lot of great scientists. This would not be possible without the 72 happiness, 144 hammers and 144 food I get from SoL, Civil Society and Universal suffrage. Neither would I be able to produce the parts in reasonable time; getting great engineers is hard, getting gold is easy. In my opinion, freedom is the superior choice if you build or conquer a lot of smaller cities, whereas order relies upon larger cities. There are civs more suite for freedom than Egypt. Korea, Persia, Rome and Indonesia come to mind.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tdtrn51krs651ex/2014-09-23_00006.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnnnu0khyymght6/2014-09-23_00001.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu04f0amnr3wb6f/2014-09-23_00002.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4kz9ifvxhf00t38/2014-09-23_00003.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9w6ynjipdw2j01g/Egypt. .Civ5Save?dl=0

Memoryjar said:

Exception is OCC : Tommy said it, Liberty is better in long time after ideologies. And in an OCC you'll have around 100turns after ideologies. So Liberty is a no-brainer in OCC. I don't remember what I chose on Deity OCC, so I can speak if you can resist against ideologies pressure with Liberty.

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No it's not tradition is much better than liberty in OCC. How to you reason liberty being betterin OCC?

He meant freedom instead of liberty.

I'll contribute to the thread for real since it lacked results for the last 5 pages:
This is a "What if no coal scenario" which was naturally underlined as an Order weakness earlier in the thread. You're of course free to also play the game available there:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13466363&postcount=80
Order attempt by Ironfighter:
Me replaying his map from T145 save using freedom (and making sure to make the comparison fair):

Acken said:

He meant freedom instead of liberty.

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Yes, I did. My bad, french translate for freedom is «liberté», and in french version of Civ V freedom is translated as «égalité» (equality).

For Spain, in my opinion, with NW, Order fits more this civ. You can have 3 to 4 cities very early and be in run like a settler games.

Like Acken I tried Order vs Freedom, and my tests show me a little advantage for Order (5 to 10 turns). Maybe, he manage a better end game than me, I always have difficulties to have enough money to buy all parts. On high level, Immortal or Deity, you can sell one or two cities to AI, but I never used that.

Acken said:

I'll contribute to the thread for real since it lacked results for the last 5 pages:
This is a "What if no coal scenario" which was naturally underlined as an Order weakness earlier in the thread.

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This forum is full of experts in theory (empty talk) at last someone show something in practice

I will try a strategy later going 3 city tall and focus early on growth and economy. The plan will be to use saved up cash to buy factories and then right after public schools. The cash cost will be 5000 gold but perhaps 6000 is needed if I dont have the coal and need to ally a CS and improve their coal (200 gold). But I have improved resources that way before but still not gotten it until much later for some strange reason. So it is a gamble.

But after Education and Civil service if I beeline to Architecture (passing through Acoustics to get a spy so that I can hopefully steal a tech like Chivalry) and in the mean time prebuild Oxford but quit with one turn remaining. Once Architecture is unlocked I start building the Porcelain Tower and start researching Economics. With one turn left on Economics I switch back to Oxford then use the free tech to unlock Industrialization. Find out where the coal is and start to improve it. And while the workers dig up the coal and tech Scientific Theory and should then be able to buy factories and public schools while also being able to pick Freedom for the half food for specialist. That should really put Freedom a head of any other ideology in terms of a quick science win.

The obvious problem will of course be if there is no coal around (but that goes for most strategies) and then saving up at least 5000 gold can be tough. And it would mean no internal trade routes with food until after this project is completed. But with a small sized army (with 3 units garrisoned), 3 trade routes and selling every horse and iron and spare luxury to the other civs it can be achieved.

At least I hope so and something I will try once I am off work.

Babylon or Korea will be the candidates.


Edit: Tried it as Babylon. The strategy is ok...ish. Did not get that much cash since I needed to upgrade soldiers since my close neighbors was Shaka, Assyria and the Celts and buy a library and a university for my jungle city (3rd city) since the production was really poor. Spy was killed before he got to steal any techs. Then used him to ally a mercantile CS since happiness was an because of exploding growth (ToH and HG). Had plenty of coal but had to hard build all factories and actually finished building the 3rd one at the same turn as I was finished with radio so did not get ideology any sooner. But with cash I would have gotten it 7-10 turns earlier.
Decided to bulb my way to Dynamite and just go on a short rampage then quit the game with out finishing it.

This is a chat board, no more no less. If you don't want people to talk, then don't open the thread.

IronfighterXXX said:

This forum is full of experts in theory (empty talk) at last someone show something in practice

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Indeed. +1 to Acken for the demonstration. Strong performance.

@memoryjar it was with no coal and was a 5 turn difference.

I think it is safe to say that with coal it would have been close or in favor of Order.

I use both and typically go with Freedom because StoL is cooler and I like the flexibility of GP, but if I really want to win I go Order because if all else fails the hammers it provides to my wide empire won't.

There is never a shortage of people who discount or scorn theory, but in the end if it wasn't for wave theory you wouldn't be reading this on the internet, without newton's theory we never would have sent a man to space, and if it wasn't for sending a man to space OR atomic theory, you wouldn't have a flippin' computer running on polysilicon transistors 9 angstroms thick and 22 nanometers long to play Civ V on.

Iberian said:

@memoryjar it was with no coal and was a 5 turn difference.

I think it is safe to say that with coal it would have been close or in favor of Order.

I use both and typically go with Freedom because StoL is cooler and I like the flexibility of GP, but if I really want to win I go Order because if all else fails the hammers it provides to my wide empire won't.

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Yes like I said it was a no coal scenario which was one of the order weakness underlined early in the thread.
Now people are free to post other game with coal. If it's a good science game I'll probably play it too (sorry I have limited time so I'll only play strong games :/).
My purpose isn't to prove one is better than the other at all times. I just want to see what the difference usually comes down to.

By the way one of the weakness of my freedom strategy is that I need a lot of AI gold which is hard on difficulties below emperor.

@Tetley: These theories had to be backed up with evidence at some point. The physicist didn't just slap his fist on the table until people agree with him. And at least these theories had maths behind them to begin with.
Nobody is scorning theories here by the way (mostly I guess). People are scorning proof-less affirmations and denial that the other way can be good.

The math is theory. Sorry, Orville and Wilbur Wright didn't just say, "screw the theory, let's just try something". If they did they'd be dead first. They started with a chalkboard. And if it takes 5 pages of discourse to come up with the math, then so be it.

tetley said:

This is a chat board, no more no less.

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Indeed. However it's nice when people who say 'x is better than y' have some evidences of it.

@Tetley: Lol I did not deny that math are theory. Where are you reading that ?

There is no maths in this thread. Affirming something and denying other views without neither experimental proof nor theory is what is criticized here. In our context here it's pretty hard to use an accurate mathematical model. Or if you can, please go ahead. Therefore the closest we're going to get to a proof is by experimentation (or simulations).

How often it actually is that you dont have coal and none of the AI's will trade it? Usually some of the AI's will have coal but of course not same time as you research industrialization.
Do we assume here that order goes industrialization before pupblic schools or do both take ideology by oxford radio?

It happens fairly often. Especially if you're really fast and/or don't play at Deity.

I usually grab industrialization while I'm finishing oxford for Radio. Indu shouldn't take more than 4-5 turns after schools. This delays ideology by 4 or so turns but at least I know where the coal is.

Acken said:

@Tetley: Lol I did not deny that math are theory. Where are you reading that ?

There is no maths in this thread. Affirming something and denying other views without neither experimental proof nor theory is what is criticized here. In our context here it's pretty hard to use an accurate mathematical model. Or if you can, please go ahead. Therefore the closest we're going to get to a proof is by experimentation (or simulations).

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This. Given that I do a lot of consulting for a living, there are few things that aggravate me more in an intellectual setting then people declaring they've run "the math" when in reality they've only run some math and most of it unsubstantial.

No intelligent person, and certainly none on this thread, are claiming that trying to mathematically analyze something is a fool's errand or some stupid nerd behavior. Fair from it.

The point, however, is that those citing math in this thread are drastically under representing the complexity of the math needed to actually illustrate the problem. There are 12+ variables in play here, with all kinds of food/hammer/gold/beaker scenarios depending on which policies you choose, how fast you can acquire them, other multipliers not considered (golden ages, religious bonuses, et al.)

It is immensely frustrating to read someone do a one or two variable mathematical demonstration and declare: "Problem Solved!"

To use a real-world demonstration of this area of complexity and physical experimentation, read up on the Challenger Explosion and the aftermath. The fact that real-life scientific geniuses were testifying before Congress that the math they ran justified the all-weather guarantee they made regarding the expandable O-rings, when in fact a few simple physical experiments would have illustrated otherwise... well, it's breathtaking that so many ridiculously smart people (far smarter than me anyway) held firm to such a myopic thesis.

No coal happens a lot if you are running a 3 city tradition game. Especially frustrating is when you ally a city state that has coal but doesn't have the tech to give it to you.

Typically I go industrialization first so I can get coal and factories up asap, particularly if I am going order. Sucks to have that 3rd sp come in and have no coal ready to go.


Probably the best way to test this is to get 3-5 games with saves right before the ST/Indus and run two games on two machines side by side and try to replicate each move as closely as possible.

IronfighterXXX said:

Indeed. However it's nice when people who say 'x is better than y' have some evidences of it.

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I did it a couple of months ago. It was on Prince.
Order give me 10 turns less than Freedom. But I restart from the beginning not from ideology choice (Iwonder how I didn't think about this).

IMHO, more important is what do you do after plastics with Order or Freedom, same path or some detour to Biology and Penicilin.

And when did you reach Fertilizer or Chemistry ? Also, Atomic theory before Rocketry with Order ? Only 1 tenets 3 with order or Iron curtain first.

@Iberian : Yes no coal and few alu. I can't make a good finish with less than 8 alus with Order. I need hammers so Hydro Plant and Spaceship factories. Or those one are not needed, so I waste a couple of turn building them.