The West Tower

It isn't totally uncottage-able. And we don't have to irrigate the corns. I don't see what's wrong with irrigating only one at a cost of one farm. Or none for that matter. Pop 6 can run 5 cottages (wine) and gems for commerce, if it arises that we lend its food. 2nd worker at pop 3 looks interesting, but tied to BW for chopped settler. Hunting and a chop gets us a Holkan.

I've played a MP as pacal (through differing circumstance; oyzar only other demogame caliber player and cap was 20 tiles land with 1 lake, irr wheat and pig and maybe 16 tiles forest. I had 3 workers before one Settler - though I wouldn't call this situation the same. Somewhat overlapping but not too similar. Much, much less forest here.

ash88 said:

Buddhism Start v1.0 [CurrentTurn]Details(TimeItTakes)
Research:[1]Meditation(10) > [10]Agri(9) > [19]Hunting(3) > [25]Archery(5) > [31]BronzeW(9)
Build:[1]Worker(10) > [10]Warrior(8) > [18]Barracks(17) > [32]Archer(?) > [?]Settler
Worker:__________> [10]Travel(2) > [12]BuildGemMine(3) > [15]Travel(2) > [17]Wait(2) > [19]BuildWheatFarmSW(5)
Culture:_____> [5]CulturalBorderPop
TileWorked:[1]North(10) > [10]WheatSW(8) > [18](+1)WheatSW&Gems

Click to expand...

An excellent analysis Sir, and sound conclusions. I would suggest changing order of Archery and Bronze Working though. Since our kick-ass unique unit does not require any metals to build, we could start building them as early as turn 35. And they can well hold their own against anything early but axemen, which we could also recieve quite early if we go for the Bronze Working.

For people that want to have a go at the different options I have recreated our start point on the following save game file.

StartingSave-AlternateReality1

THIS IS NOT THE REAL GAME SAVE FILE

This is simply our starting point recreated using the Build Editor. You can load it up and try out the different starting build orders, but inevitably anything that is revealed in the tiles beyond what has been shown previously in this thread has nothing to do with the game. I just generated a random map and edited one of the coasts so it was the same as the picture above. So if you find Horses 3 tiles into the Fog of war don't think that there are Horses 3 tiles into the Fog of war...

It is a standard map with the standard number of AI civs on Monarch difficulty - so if you want to go ahead and play it through go nuts. Just don't get confused!

Cheers.

slaze said:

It isn't totally uncottage-able. And we don't have to irrigate the corns. I don't see what's wrong with irrigating only one at a cost of one farm. Or none for that matter. Pop 6 can run 5 cottages (wine) and gems for commerce, if it arises that we lend its food. 2nd worker at pop 3 looks interesting, but tied to BW for chopped settler. Hunting and a chop gets us a Holkan.

.

Click to expand...

No it is not tottaly uncottagable but it is painfull to be financal without river tiles as we lose ALOT of commerce. Imagine that a non financial civ with river tiles in capital will tech faster than us....so we chose financial and are losing a big percentage of its value from the start!

slaze said:

I've played a MP as pacal (through differing circumstance; oyzar only other demogame caliber player and cap was 20 tiles land with 1 lake, irr wheat and pig and maybe 16 tiles forest. I had 3 workers before one Settler - though I wouldn't call this situation the same. Somewhat overlapping but not too similar. Much, much less forest here.

Click to expand...

What you describe here sounds like the perfect cottage capital, nothing to do with our situation.

Going for a religion first will severely delay our growth and expansion. We are already at disadvantage by not having a 6 food tile and by our resources being awkwardly placed requiring alot of worker turns from one to the other...going for a religion first will leave us too much behind.

The question is whether we go worker first and agriculture/BW or warrior first and BW/agriculture.

First can I ask my noble lords, with regard to proposed movement of units, to agree a common scheme.

Some use NSEW as eg 1W or 1E or N, or NE or NNE. Some use ( based on the num keypad) 6 meaning due east or 8 meaning due north. (9 would mean north east). For units with 2 movement points, I find the num keyboard system easier.

I am content with moving 6 or 9.

Re build and research options: I will be guided by the nobles experiences. I would favour a second warrior for exploration and BW to faciltate chopping, axes and UU Holkan.

Indiansmoke said:

The question is whether we go worker first and agriculture/BW or warrior first and BW/agriculture.

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Agriculture First
If that is the only question I would do Worker with Agriculture first - followed by BW, farm the SW Wheat, then the Mine, then the North Wheat. Agriculture first really is the only other viable option after Meditation imho, and if we weren't playing a civ with mysticism it would be the only option imho.

Bronze Working First
The alternative, Warrior with BW then Agriculture, puts us way behind in terms of both food growth and research. What is that - 20 turns until our Worker is ready I think? And 23 turns until Agricuture is done? (off the top of my head numbers - too lazy to do more math ) Population of I think barely 2 in the city - - Who cares if we have BW before Agriculture if we get it before it is useful. I admit I don't see the advantage here. We don't need to chop anything to get the resources so why do this? I'm honestly asking - I don't see an advantage. Go with Meditation way before this option. You end up way further ahead.

Meditation First
The Meditation first model puts us a few turns behind in terms of population in the city but has a greater output in research and production. Since the early game citys will cap their population max at 5 because of happiness (6 with Religion) we may want to get this after then on the rare case that no one else picks it up. I respect the Kings choice not to want to muddy the waters with Religion for his own reasons though. Inevitably if we missed it for whatever reason we would be waaaaaaay behind, so it is a gamble in that sense.

Alternate reality Play weirdness
So I am playing through the Alternate Reality map 1 and the AI is getting Hinduism before me. Montezuma. He doesn't have any more commerce then I do, but he consistently gets it before I do. It's weird. Does anyone know what I am missing?

(This is fun)

Cheers.

Aivoturso said:

An excellent analysis Sir, and sound conclusions. I would suggest changing order of Archery and Bronze Working though. Since our kick-ass unique unit does not require any metals to build, we could start building them as early as turn 35. And they can well hold their own against anything early but axemen, which we could also recieve quite early if we go for the Bronze Working.

Click to expand...

That's a really good point. I forgot about the UU.

There is a problem with some of the numbers; they may be off by 1 point here or there because I mistook the 2F1H square North of the initial city that I wanted to work for the first 5 turns for a 1F2H square. This will skew the numbers a little on production, but not enough that I want to figure it out again (you can though! )

Overall you are right. My unbound advice would be:

1. Meditation/Polythesim
2. Agriculture
3. Bronze Working

Trying it on the alternate reality save 1 map I uploaded we do end up 1 population point behind on turn 25, but only by a couple of turns. We are a full warrior of production ahead, have a religion, and an extra tech.

Indiansmoke said:

Going for a religion first will severely delay our growth and expansion. We are already at disadvantage by not having a 6 food tile and by our resources being awkwardly placed requiring alot of worker turns from one to the other...going for a religion first will leave us too much behind.

The question is whether we go worker first and agriculture/BW or warrior first and BW/agriculture.

Click to expand...

OK, here's a thought:

Unfortunately it looks like we will have to forgo the religion quest. But take heart! As we should be in a position to be competitive for it later. Also, the mere fact that we have Mysticism may dissuade the unenlightened to even pursue this path.

Now, for our Worker/Warrior scenario, starting with Fishing would pay for itself by the time we finished resarching BW. Here's how the turn of events could unfold (and Aivoturso, please be ready to check my math! )

Turns 1-5:
Work either forest, build Warrior. (10/20 growth) (45/44 toward Fishing)

Turns 6-17:
Borders expand!
Send Warrior SE
Work Lake, begin Worker (60/60) (10/20 growth) (145/179 BW...complete at Turn 20)

Turns 18-21:
Work Lake for 2 turns, Food for 2turns (Size 2 on T22;BW on T21)

Turns 22-27:
Work lake and Coast (15shields - Agri in 6 turns)
Chop forests for another worker and mine the Gems.

Before I continue, can anyone check my numbers up to this point? I am basing these stats on Ash's numbers and I can access the alternate reality game due to lack of a BUG mod (which I don't have time to mess with right now...)

City is 2food-2hammer-1trade, right?

Donovan Zoi said:

Before I continue, can anyone check my numbers up to this point? I am basing these stats on Ash's numbers and I can access the alternate reality game due to lack of a BUG mod (which I don't have time to mess with right now...

Click to expand...

Ahh crap... I forgot to turn that off. Sorry. Most people use BUG though right? If you don't then really it isn't so much a MOD as an essential for making the game interface better. It doesnt change anything to do with the game - it just puts info on your interface so you can see it at-a-glance instead of digging for it and getting out a calculator. You can get it here:

BUG Mod

If there is enough demand I will make an alternate reality for BTS without BUG mod. But really, try out BUG. We use it religously in my weekly multiplayer game now - have for a long time. So much so that I forget what the non-BUG interface looks like.

Donovan Zoi said:

Also, the mere fact that we have Mysticism may dissuade the unenlightened to even pursue this path.

Click to expand...

Are the leaders for the different teams known before hand? If so - well - that changes things. I haven't read that though. I don't think anyone will know we are playing a mystical civilization until they find us, and by then the initial race will be over. As I said though, its the Kings choice to take, and I can't blame him for not taking it. It's his Kingdom, so I humbly bow to his choice not to go all religous

Cheers.

Worker/Agriculture Scenario

Turns 1-10:
Work either forest, build Worker. Worker (50/60) (0/20 growth) (90/89 toward Agriculture)
Borders expand at Turn 5.

Turns 11-12:
Complete Worker, Begin BW (0/20 growth) (18/179 BW)

Turns 13-18:
Begin Warrior, Work unfarmed Corn, usable on Turn 18 (20/20 growth [3-3-3-3-3-5]) (72/179 BW)

Turn 19:
Capital is Size 2!
Work farmed Corn and Forest, Warrior completes. (25/20 growth ) (81/179 BW)


Going straight Agri/BW gets us both techs at turn 30, perhaps quicker if we forgo growth. This really makes the Fishing start look pretty good, where we get 3 techs by T27.

Up next: Starting with BW.

Warrior/Bronze Working Scenario

Turns 1-5:
Work either forest, build Warrior. (10/20 growth) (45/179 toward Bronze Working )
Borders expand at Turn 5.

Turns 6-17:
Complete Worker, Begin BW (10/20 growth) (153/179 BW)

Turns 18-22:
Work unfarmed Corn and Forest. City grows on T21.
Build Warrior, Start on Agriculture (45/89)

Two turns to get to gems for mine. Mine complete on T23.

How are you getting these numbers? For the first 5 turns you have us getting 9/turn. That's commerce intake, but did you consider normal beaker multipliers?

Summary

In my first official action as Imperial Strategist of Merlot, I would like to formally submit our opening plan for discussion before I send it on for His Majesty's approval.

There has been much lament about our location in regards to our Financial trait. I have also heard rumblings among the nobles regarding the prospect of having their serfs sent off in three different directions for what appears to be less than immediate results.

For this reason, I am proposing something a bit unconventional for our opening move, one which may seem senseless at first glance. For you see, I intend to convince our Imperial Majesty that we would be best served casting our lines into the water, even when there is no evidence of dilectable seafood to be had.

I have heard tell that serfs of the area have been sustaining themselves on a large bony fish which would garner less than a shilling in trade. Yet we seem to have an abundance of said fish that, if properly processed, could allow us to reap huge rewards on sheer volume alone.

I have named this untoward proposal after this scrappy little swimmer, and hope that His Magnificence will appreciate its merits. Good Nobles of Merlot, I give you:

slaze said:

How are you getting these numbers? For the first 5 turns you have us getting 9/turn. That's commerce intake, but did you consider normal beaker multipliers?

Click to expand...

What multipliers do we have at this stage? Please let me know what they are, and I will adjust my findings. I usually go by what I see on the screen, and wasnt aware that there was a science multiplier. Regardless, it is still hard to argue against Fishing as a starting tech, though I encourage you all to do so.

Let's work out all of the bugs now, as this is my first foray into heavy math like this. I am traditionally more of an "instinct" player.

EDIT: I have also sent a PM to our Imperial Mathematician, Aivoturso, for his assistance. Perhaps I was a bit hasty in presenting my final plan, but we will get this resolved quickly. Feel free to discuss the merits of all three scenarios in the meantime --- this ain't over until our King wills it so!

Donovan Zoi said:

What multipliers do we have at this stage? ... Regardless, it is still hard to argue against Fishing as a starting tech, though I encourage you all to do so.

Click to expand...

It's intriguing, I'll give you that, but before i commit to anything I want to run some tests - this method, my instinctual Ag BW start and maybe others. But I don't have bug mod and its getting late to set it up myself.

As far as multipliers, for fishing you would at very least get the free beaker and for BW you would also get the +20% multiplier for knowing mining .

Sir Donovan I must say this is an inteliggent alternative plan indeed.

BUT...there are a few problems with this plan, biggest being that we do not need fishing in the first place since we don't have any seafood! Second beeing that working a 2food 3 commerce tile for so many turns in the start is very bad for developement. Third being that we delay improving our food and thus growth alot.

If you compare his with the normal opening of agriculture/worker BW, we have 2 workers, 3 warriors improved resources size 3 capital and a settler at turn 34. We have teched Agr/BW/Wheel and are 1 turn from pottery

In fishing first scenario on turn 34 we are nowhere near this situation, even our tech is not better!

P.S your numbers seem abit off as well... Fishing is 6 turns not 5.

For the glory of the King, I have taken the time to play and meticulously document the first 35 turns for both the Agriculture/Farm start and the Meditation/Mine start. My hope is to give the King all the available information on which he can base his good decision. If his Highness sees merit in both this and the Fishing first plan I will run that plan through the same process.

The Excel Spreadsheet which gives all of the meticulous details of every single turn is here: Plan Comparison v1.0

It should be somewhat self explanatory after some examination. Feel free to download the Alternative reality start save file I provided above and play through it all yourself.

To summarize:

Agriculture/Farm First - classic opening
By turn 38 we have the following techs researched: Agriculture, Bronze Working, Hunting, The Wheel, Meditiation (for comparison - could be anything).
We have produced: A worker, A warrior, a barracks, A warrior, and begun a settler (at our current city happiness population capacity of 5).
We hit our city growth cap on turn 30 and had to stagnate our growth to avoid angry citizens at that point.

Meditation/Mine First - Religous opening
We found Buddhism, increasing our immediate Maximum population cap to 6 (8 with the mine and a temple, and other religous benefits).
We have the same techs as above but we manage them by turn 36.
We have produced the same units/buildings, although we are 1 turn behind by turn 33. Although we lead in production through most of the opening game on turn 26 the Agri/Farm ties it up and on turn 31 they pull a point ahead (the higher population catching up).
On turn 33 That Farm/Agri strategy is 1 population point ahead, however, they have reached their cap of 5 (6 when the road to the gems is complete) which will take longer to construct. We can grow unrestricted to size 6 (7 when the road is complete) because of religion - and even higher - to size 8 - with a temple.

The biggest question is whether we stagnate our growth at 4 to build a Settler, or wait 4 turns to grow to size 5 (the cap that the Agriculture/Farm start strategy is at) before we build the Settler and then continue on with our growth as we don't have the same size cap.

Extrapolation
Yes - quickly gaining population is important. And the Agriculture/Farm strategy does pull ahead early with this. But it's sort of like a jump start to know where - the Meditation/Mine strategy gets the same food resources hooked up a few turns later, but with a growth cap of +2 (with a temple) in the cities we can grow to 8 instead of 6. This gives us a massive advantage across the board until we discover Hereditary Rule.

All that said, I'm just giving my point and ideas. I will completely support the King and his initiatives

ash88 said:

The biggest question is whether we stagnate our growth at 4 to build a Settler, or wait 4 turns to grow to size 5 (the cap that the Agriculture/Farm start strategy is at) before we build the Settler and then continue on with our growth as we don't have the same size cap.

Click to expand...

We stop at size 3 working the 2 corn and the gems and use 2 chops for the settler. That is the point of Agri/BW. Growing without working premium resource tiles is not worth it this early.

Let me first announce that Imperial Mathematical Seminar has just gotten its second member. Sir Zorag has graciously let me know that he is also both capable and willing to do the complex calculations needed. I hereby officially appoint him as a member of the Seminar. If you have requests for difficult calculations, I would ask you to direct them to me so I can try to divide the work approprietly. However, for time critical mathematical requests, please send them to all standing members of the Seminar so first one to visit the court can answer. Of course you can post the questions for all the people to see and perhaps to answer.

Next on my agenda, unfortunately Sir Donovan, there are some mistakes in your calculations:

First, properly set up worker will actually take only 11 turns instead of 12 if we change our peasants to work the hill with a forest in turn 5. This comes from the fact that we are an expansionist and we get +25 % bonus to hammers for a worker. This however does not apply to surplus food, which is converted to hammers in one-to-one ratio. As far as I know pretty much all fractions in the game are rounded down with the exception of some decimal numbers included in the game. For those I am not aware of the precision the math is done in the system. So we get one extra hammer when we have 4 to begin with and none for 3.

Second, as Your Majesty pointed out, the price of the boats is not right. It would take 59 beakers and henceforth 6 turns to get the fish out of the sea.

I'll try and do the correct numbers as soon as possible.

For research purposes there is this excellent article about how beakers work. Basically the gist of it is that on top of the commercial yield of the beakers we get 1 just for trying and after adding that the number of recieved beakers is dependent of number of prerequisites for the tech we already have and number of the known civilizations who have the tech. With the number of civilizations (counting us 6 right?) we get 5 percent unit bonus for each we know that has the technology. So even though there are no huts to rush to, it is of utmost importance to get to know our neibourghs as soon as possible. I would also suggest for all nobles to read "Repercussions" chapter of the said article even if the maths isn't your forte. Especially for Sir Tegvtec I would like to remind of the repercussion 5 and 6. It would serve us well, if you would include in your intelligence analysis required turns to each tech our opponents can feasibly have.

By the way, thanks for Sir Ash again for running some simulations and providing us all a save file to do the same. For comparing plans I would recommend using a start with no AIs (or all tucked safely behind an ocean). Otherwise we may misjudge the research speed due to known civilization having the tech bonus.