Civ5 Invades US High Schools

The original CIV was far truer to history and reality than this thing ever is. Sure, there are parts that are nicely done, but to use this as an historic tool, no. If I was Sid meier i`d be saying, `No.` I`d even say use Civ 4 instead.

But then again, schools these days are not very good places of education at all. They are more places of indoctrinate than educate.
 
I can't disagree with a single thing you said. Again, I cringe.

Cool thing is I was just introducing my 15-year-old nephew to Civ 5 so he'll have a head start.
 
I'm a sophomore in high school and I've always been top of all my history classes for one reason, and it's that I've played Civ half my life.

That's not to say using it as an educational tool will work on a mass scale, today's education reforms are all about standardization and I don't think it's right for the most part. Civ works as a learning tool for me but I have no idea if it'll work for anybody else.
 
I think that I'd be in favor of inflicting Civ V upon any economics class in high school ; if there ANY being taught in schools today . The Game teaches economic planning, food, production, trade and commerce; allowing folks to look ahead to see how things come together that makes a profit .

NO thanks to the D. of Education (WHAT A LAUGH !!), the NEA, and standardized 'tests' ; we are getting people who might NOT be able to figure compounding interest, being unable to out think a 'smart phone' , make small change without a computer; or think for themselves.

Nuts and bolts skills are not being used in this 'PC world' , but BOY HOWDY do we have LOADS of Liberal Arts collages !

We here at the Jack Benny School of Economic Conservitism and Cheap, preach that,"IF the accruing interest on your credit card ain't coming to you, you ain't interested in it .", also, "If you don't know how to effectivly plan finances, there's ALWAYS too much month at the end of the money ."

BTW, I'm class of 1970; during the really dark ages of Before Sid (21BS) !
 
I'm a sophomore in high school and I've always been top of all my history classes for one reason, and it's that I've played Civ half my life.

That's not to say using it as an educational tool will work on a mass scale, today's education reforms are all about standardization and I don't think it's right for the most part. Civ works as a learning tool for me but I have no idea if it'll work for anybody else.

Allow me to suggest that the benefit you've seen from Civ is because you have intellectual curiosity and the initiative to think for yourself. I hesitate to attribute those qualities to most of your peers.

Causality is a debate for another time/place.

PS. Good on you.
 
I think that I'd be in favor of inflicting Civ V upon any economics class in high school ; if there ANY being taught in schools today . The Game teaches economic planning, food, production, trade and commerce; allowing folks to look ahead to see how things come together that makes a profit .

NO thanks to the D. of Education (WHAT A LAUGH !!), the NEA, and standardized 'tests' ; we are getting people who might NOT be able to figure compounding interest, being unable to out think a 'smart phone' , make small change without a computer; or think for themselves.

Nuts and bolts skills are not being used in this 'PC world' , but BOY HOWDY do we have LOADS of Liberal Arts collages !

We here at the Jack Benny School of Economic Conservitism and Cheap, preach that,"IF the accruing interest on your credit card ain't coming to you, you ain't interested in it .", also, "If you don't know how to effectivly plan finances, there's ALWAYS too much month at the end of the money ."

BTW, I'm class of 1970; during the really dark ages of Before Sid (21BS) !

Another reply that I have a tough time disagreeing with at all. Perhaps we should "give" away all higher education for free to everyone. That ought to increase the value and quality of higher education. (sarcasm.....and I despise having to point that out).

OK, I'm done pontificating on the subject, as I don't want to risk the ire of our beloved moderators for going off topic.
 
I think that I'd be in favor of inflicting Civ V upon any economics class in high school ; if there ANY being taught in schools today . The Game teaches economic planning, food, production, trade and commerce; allowing folks to look ahead to see how things come together that makes a profit .

Sadly economics is not a required course in highschool or college these days in America (unless you are taking a major that requires it as a prerequisite). I think some highschools don't even teach it which has often been a major pet peeve of mine. I have no idea why the department of education decided that every student needed to take biology but not economics, the latter would be FAR more useful and teach things they could actually apply to succeed after graduation. Nothing against biology, I loved the course, but THAT seems like it should be a curiosity class instead of many other subjects.

I feel strongly about this and I'm gonna talk about it lol. ;)

It'd be nice if the average citizen understood these basic concepts, then they wouldn't get into as much debt or vote for ridiculous politicians that promise things that don't work.

Case in point: taxing businesses directly is silly. A business is not a person, it's what supports the economy by buying/selling and hiring people. it does NOT help employees or buyers but just raises prices as businesses just amortize any costs they get. You can tax individuals when make money from their business but don't tax the business for existing and don't tax a business for investing its profits into growing as this creates jobs. I see taxing businesses heavily as just directly hurting the economy as it raises entry barriers to starting new companies and entrepreneurship and makes everything cost more. It also serves to keep established businesses in control ironically because its harder for new companies to get started and compete with all the red tape.

The same goes for setting a MINIMUM wage at AVERAGE living level. That's silly as well, it erases entry-level jobs and makes it harder to get a new job. Why do you think unemployment for the young generation is so high in places like California and jobs are good in places like Tennessee that didn't set minimum wage too high? I can remember over the past 15 years fast-food like MacDonalds going from having 15 people working in the back to 4-5 today. Why? Minimum wages. MacDonalds doesn't want to make their food expensive because their whole selling point is cheap&fast! So they instead make their existing employees work harder and hire less of them. Oh, and your food also takes 2-3x as long to make because of it. And we wonder why young people have a hard time getting jobs...if these places were allowed to hire new people for less they'd immediately do it, but they can't because these places have to make money to survive. So we've erased millions of jobs to make those with jobs already more comfortable. I liked the old way where you started at a low wage that was below average living level but quickly got raises if you worked hard. Places like MacDonald's actually used to work this way to encourage employees to work hard and stay since getting new low-paying jobs was pretty easy. Good luck getting a raise there today.

I don't approve of wealth redistribution or over 50% inheritance taxes either, but at least it isn't directly doing the opposite of what they say and actually HURTING the economy. But anything where you cost businesses money goes directly into making them have to spend less (hire less with minimum wage) or charge more. Very few businesses operate with the large profit margins these people claim. Doing this stuff doesn't make them make less money, it makes less jobs and makes you have to spend more. This has always been the way the economy works. If the average american took basic economics I they would recognize this stuff and not elect politicians who do these things.

In my opinion most of the policies over the past decade have done nothing but artificially raise the cost of living, cause inflation, and cause unemployment, and the ironic thing is they claim these things are doing the opposite. They get away with this because the average person has a short memory span and doesn't realize the bad side effects of these policies are DELAYED. They occur over the next year or so. But by that time the politician is elected or out the door so what do they care eh? It's all about manufacturing issues to argue about and it doesn't matter if they are real or not as long as they can get people to take about it and care. I'm pretty jaded even at 26 after seeing the stupid things that are said during elections and the way the economy keeps getting worse as we move farther from free markets. The reason it hasn't been far worse is the government keeps borrowing way more money then it makes to pump into the economy. This can't last forever. Keynesianism is NOT an sound economic theory. It basically just says you can create the semblance of prosperity and affect the economy in the short term by borrowing money and subsidizing/paying into different sectors of it. I'm sure it looked attractive back in the 70's when there were still decades before we'd be so far in debt before we could get out of it, but the repercussions are coming. Ironically, whoever is in office when things get bad will probably get blamed, instead of the real perpetrators over the past few decades. A president only gets blamed for what happens in his 4 years after all, which is why this cycle will continue and no one will fix the problems. Because stopping now will immediately cause a depression. Many sectors of the economy now depend on the government dumping cash into it every year. :/

I know this forum is multicultural and everyone loves to bash America, but this critique goes for most of the Western world and we're hardly unique in these problems. The best economies, in my opinion, are all in Asia at this point. It doesn't matter how much GDP they are putting out, but how healthy the economies are and not running a massive debt means they will recover far quicker and take our business away if we get a global market crash from all these slow problems. China, Japan, and Korea are already starting to take over global markets in many sectors now, how easy do you think it will be if we keep hurting our businesses competitiveness through all these taxes and regulations? I get the idea behind these things, and some of them like the FDC and pollution regulation are healthy, but many of them are unnecessary or could be accomplished more simply.

To bring it back on topic: teaching students gold management and time management in a game like civ5 is a good start, but since there are no delayed loans it still doesn't warn against the use of credit cards ;). I guess the closest thing is borrowing money for gpt during a golden age lol. :p Just out of curiosity, how many other civ5 fans/nerds are free market advocates?
 
I don't approve of wealth redistribution or over 50% inheritance taxes either, but at least it isn't directly doing the opposite of what they say and actually HURTING the economy.

Dana, I agree with a lot of your essay, but can make a lot of arguments for some sort of inheritance tax. The massive amount of power inter-generational wealth accumulation accrues is NOT something that is remotely free market. I am not a fan of the Gates Foundation making decisions for me. Of course, if we actually enforced anti-trust laws this would be less of an issue. Also, lower tax rates would reduce the amount of power bought-and-paid for politicians could wield, and this would lessen the effect.

As someone who has done quite a bit of estate planning professionally, and is also very much a proponent of the Austrian Economic Theory, I am still torn on this issue.

Regarding tax rates, what most don't understand is that the US has had a wide range of tax rates over the past century. The percent of income collected in taxes has barely changed at all, no matter the rate, but it has changed which portion of the population foots more of the tax bill. Higher rates, even in progressive tax schemes, favor the wealthy. They have the resources to take advantage of tax loopholes. You'll note on my profile that there is some mention of the Caymans......there's a reason for that and it's not just the diving.

One last note on the subject of taxation and cross-border investment: since the 2012 US election, it has become a populist notion that moving assets offshore is a bad thing. I would make the counter-argument that tax competition is one of the most democratic structures one could ask for. If I can take my capital elsewhere, it has the tendency to keep a domestic government from overtaxing and overspending. The problems lie when these avenues are only available to the wealthy.

This circles back to your point regarding the taxation of corporations. I'm about 98% of the way in agreement with you. The 2% is that we can't trust/force companies to actually reinvest the tax savings into productive endeavors. The reasons for that are probably a bit too complex for this forum.

Edit: If any of the above seemed to imply that I'm one of the above-mentioned wealthy, such is not the case. I'm trying, but probably prefer leisure activities like diving and playing Civ too much.
 
Well just take a look at my signature and you ought to have a pretty good idea of where I stand on the matter :)
 
First post as a long time reader, who finally feels some urge to post [emoji4]

As an educator in Holland, I'd say it's good to teach kids that actions have consequences. A game like civ is perfect for this.

Wouldn't recommend it for history lessons, though..


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Points taken.

My comment on inheritance tax was I don't think it should be over "50%" as Bernie Sanders is advocating. It's currently about 40% and I'm fine with that. I agree there is too much power in families otherwise if you can "gift" massive funds to relatives and it can reduce competition in the case of family businesses. It's easy to keep control and power when you start with a lot of money. There's a reason we have inheritance taxes and it's to prevent classism where certain families continue to be rich forever. However, in the case of non-rich families it seems a bit extreme. If there isn't already a minimum below which you have no 40% tax then there should be.

I assume in the case of taxing businesses, it originally started because individuals were keeping the funds in the business as a tax shelter instead of reinvesting it. I'm not a business major but I don't see the problem as long as they still get taxed whenever they withdraw it as income. But if it is too complex to discuss oh well. I'm sure there are lots of clever things businesses do to avoid taxes. However it seems a double standard to me to tax a business and raise its costs, and then tax the individuals when they make money from the business again.
 
There are a number of lessons to be learned here. Critical thinking, micromanagement, how not to be an impulsive jerk and steal another player's workers, how to be an impulsive jerk and steal weaker player's workers, economics, etc.

It's also comparatively challenging to invade in this game, especially if you are behind in tech. No stack of doom means it's very easy to lose your seige, or all of your melee or whatever.

This game you need to manage a bunch of variables, some of which can easily go into the negative and cause sadness.

The original civ was more historically accurate? Uh, no? Did you ever see chariots being the army choice from between 3980 BC and 1915 AD? Remember how chivalry was a waste of time because knights were only barely better than a guy in a rickedy horse cart?
 
Moderator Action: Discussions of economic policy are off-topic for this thread. Please take such discussions to the Off-Topic forum.
 
Moderator Action: Discussions of economic policy are off-topic for this thread. Please take such discussions to the Off-Topic forum.

Certainly, and I do apologize as I my original post was just to bring attention to Civ's apparently upcoming prominence in the US education system. I normally post in Strategy section, and thought this was the appropriate place for something off-topic. Guess I was wrong?

Is this thread moved and/or should I stop responding? I'm a bit naive on message board etiquette, so will adhere to direction.
 
Fair enough, and I did try to limit myself to Civ related comments. I'm just a bit passionate about some of the good (IMHO) points that others brought up and am quite guilty of adding to this discussion going down that road.

The next time I discuss economics on this website, it will be regarding the tech Economics. Does that work?

I happen to agree that Civfanatics should stick to Civ topics. There does not appear to be a shortage of other websites available where economic/political topics may be discussed. My apologies to anyone here who found earlier comments offensive or disagreeable. We don't have to share the same views to love this freakin game.
 
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