MAP development

Thanks a lot for that Kai, it's really cleared up everything for someone like myself who hasn't seen the map(s).

Having played GEM quite a bit I'd back Kai in terms of not creating artificial unions where possible, especially in the Middle East. It seems that where you've got to so far is fantastic though.

My only other suggestions would be that if we have Georgia then why no Belarus? I notice that in Europe we seem to have loaded with anti Russian nations (Georgia, Ukraine) but no Belarus. Belarus would be a useful illustration of local Russian influence in that area.

South Africa is really quite distinct from the rest of Africa and is probably a nuclear power, but there is a legitimate union there.

I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but isn't a representation of Afghanistan and Iraq as permanent American territory a little unreaslistic? Why not vassals, with not overly good relations and distinct civics?

Anyway, good work guys, I won't labour my points as i realise i've come in late in the day!

Here's another compromise proposal on Africa:

- Basically keeping the Unions and the structure proposed by Genghis Kai
- To further fragment the Unions we can dissociate the second most important state from each union and assign it to Minor States. IMO this would be Ghana from Western Africans/Nigeria, Gabon from Central Africans/Angola, Botswana from Southern Africans/South Africa and Kenya from Eastern Africans/Tanzania.

It would then look like this:



Then we could either add Libya as its own civ or leave it as a Minor State.

What do you think, Genghis Kai?

I do like having neutral states, yes. You shouldn't just be able to invade Switzerland and Costa Rica the same way you could invade say, Yemen.

I like it, the more fractured, the more realistic it is

Adhesive86 said:

I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but isn't a representation of Afghanistan and Iraq as permanent American territory a little unreaslistic? Why not vassals, with not overly good relations and distinct civics?

Click to expand...

Good point - especially with independent elections this year in Iraq.

Another topic that has been done to death in other threads.

...because the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan wouldn't exist without the American occupation. What would be unrealistic, would be allowing the USA to move troops out, but keep them as vassals with their current governments in place.

OK, let me propose again, based on the my original suggestion on post #159 and #160. In summary, we will add 4 more civs (total 52 civs). These are: Neutral States, Belarus, Nigeria and Angola. Let me explain them one by one.

On Neutral States: Since DVS, our of this mod want this back, lets add it back, and it will consist of only 3 cities, one for each - Switzerland, Costa Rica and Turkmenistan (forget about Liechtenstein, is not going to fit).

On Belarus: Seems like there are so many of you like to have Belarus back. Well, if we are not too fuss about have another civ, I will add it back and try to make it to have at least 2 cities (other than just Minsk).

On Africa: I think the main concern about Africa is that it doesn't fragment Africa enough. Follow on from the idea of ianinsane's on post #183, here is what I will propose again for Africa, trying to balance the goal for not creating Artificial unions and trying to fragment Africa further.



For West Africa, it is further broken up into the two trade unions that have integrated their currency, the CFA franc and Eco. The former is already in use, the later is said to be implemented in 2009. See here. For simplicity, these two unions will be called West African States and Nigeria respectively.

Similarly for Central Africa, the Central African States which are using CFA franc are grouped together as Central African States, while Angola and DR Congo are grouped to called Angola. This is realistic I think because DR Congo's government is heavily influenced by Angola.

For South Africa, I will just take out Mozambique as a minor nation, then call the remaining simply as South Africa - Botswana and Namibia are heavily influenced by South Africa in reality.

And no change for East African States.

Then the list of African civs is as follow:

Nation (number of cities):
Morocco(4)
Algeria(5)
Egypt(4)
Sudan(4)
Ethiopia(5)
West African States (5)
Nigeria (6)
Central African States(4)
Angola (4)
South Africa (6)
East African States (6)

I think this is quite well balanced now. But feel free to further comment on.

I love it. Great work, Ganghis Kai!

The updated list (52 civs):

Nation (includes)

European Union (EU excluding UK)
United Kingdom (Jamaica, Belize, Bahamas, Trinidad)
Norway
Russia
Belarus
Ukraine
Turkey
Georgia

Morocco
Algeria (Tunisia)
Egypt
Sudan
Ethiopia
West African States (Burkina Faso, Mali, Niger, Senegal, and Togo.)
Nigeria (Ghana, Liberia and Sierra Leone)
Central African States (Cameroon, São Tomé, Equatorial Guinea and Gabon)
Angola (DR Congo)
South Africa (Botswana and Namibia)
East African States (Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi)

Saudi Arabia
Israel
Palestine
Syria
Iran
Pakistan
Bangladesh
India

Kazakhstan
Mongolia
China
Taiwan
North Korea
South Korea
Japan

Myanmar
Thailand
Vietnam
Philippines
Indonesia
Australia (Papul New Guinea and some pacific islands)
New Zealand (some pacific islands)

Canada
United States (Iraq, Afghanistan)
Mexico
Colombia
Bolivarian Americas (Venezuela, Cuba, Bolivia, Nicaragua)
Peru
Brazil
Argentina
Chile

Neutral States (Switzerland, Turkmenistan and Costa Rica)

Minor States (Iceland, Croatia, Albania, Serbia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Libya, Cape Verde, Mozambique, Madagascar, Seychelles, Lebanon, Jordon, Oman, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Yemen, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, Haiti, Guyana, Suriname, Ecuador, Paraguay, Uruguay)

Failed States (Mauritania, Guinea, Côte d'Ivoire, part of Mali, part of Niger, Central African Republic, Chad, part of DR Congo, Eritrea, Somalia, Darfur, Malawi, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Uzbekistan, East Timor)

Perfect, looks good. Let's try it that way. I will update the civs tomorrow. Great work Genghis.

im loving Africa in post #188 Kai, nice Job

One thing though, are we going to represent these ingame:
For the UK:
British Overseas Territories

For the EU Civ:
French overseas departments and territories Overseas Collectivities
Netherlands Antilles

Many of these islands\territories are important military bases (Falklands, British Sovereign Bases, Gibraltar, Ascension Island & Diego Garcia for the UK alone) and also provide flash points for possible conflicts with local neighbors (i.e The Falklands War) and diplomatic stumbling blocks (Gibraltar for Spain & the UK).

sheep21 said:

im loving Africa in post #188 Kai, nice Job

One thing though, are we going to represent these ingame:
For the UK:
British Overseas Territories

For the EU Civ:
French overseas departments and territories Overseas Collectivities
Netherlands Antilles

Many of these islands\territories are important military bases (Falklands, British Sovereign Bases, Gibraltar, Ascension Island & Diego Garcia for the UK alone) and also provide flash points for possible conflicts with local neighbors (i.e The Falklands War) and diplomatic stumbling blocks (Gibraltar for Spain & the UK).

Click to expand...

Some of them are already covered while some aren't:

Falklands - included under UK
Cyprus's British Sovereign Base - too close to Nicosia, which is at the moment under EU. Should I make Nicosia own by UK?
Gibraltar - included under UK
Ascension Island - not included yet. I can add it to the map
Diego Garcia - not included yet. I can add it to the map
Curacao - included under EU

But there are lots of islands I haven't covered and I am not familiar with modern military bases. So please pin point more specific islands that are strategic military bases and I can include them, if possible.

Just a heads up, Iceland's economy collapsed and they want to join the EU and Brussels said they'll be able to join sometime around 2011-12. You might as well just include them in the EU.

well Bermuda for the UK, a very profitable territory


the thing with France is unlike the UK she doesnt have afew big deployments she has many smaller ones instead around the world. Fort-de-France in Martinique springs to mind.

hers a list i made in the final civ thread:

sheep21 said:

looks good here
may I make afew small suggestions:
NATO\UK should control:
-Gibraltar - important choke point for med and source of friction with spain\EU
-Falkands Islands - source of friction with Argentina
-Indian Ocean Territory (Diego Garcia) - important joint UK\US Air and Naval Base
See Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian_Ocean_Territory

-Accension Island - important air base
-British Virgin Islands
-Cayman Islands
-Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia - important Land, Sea and Air base

The EU should control
-French overseas territories
--French Guiana
--French Polynesia
--Guadeloupe
--Martinique
--Réunion
--Mayotte
--Saint Pierre and Miquelon
--Wallis and Futuna
--New Caledonia
-Spain
--Ceuta
--Melilla
--Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera
--Peñón de Alhucemas
--Islas Chafarinas
-Dutch
--Netherlands Antilles
--Aruba
-Denmark
--Greenland
--Faroe Islands


not all of these island possessions need to be included, but some do. Also, Diego Garcia is a British possessions and base, not American, surely the two having open boarders would be fine and allow the US to use the island?

Click to expand...

Not all of those have to be included particularly if very minor and they clash with current independent civs already nearby. They will just give the player alot of flexibility as to where to deploy units\influence local affairs. (aswell as fill up the HUUUUUUUUUGE and empty pacific!).

Regarding Cyprus, I leave it down to you, there are seven to eight thousand British personnel permanently deployed on the island and it makes a great staging post for the Middle East. For playability I say give it to the UK, the EU have Crete, Malta & Sardinia anyway.

Hope that list helps

I wonder whether we should use Forts to represent most of these military bases as I think it is a better resemble than a city. But I am not familiar with the functions of Fort in CIV. I only know that it allows to base units, including ships and aircrafts, and increase their defense bonus. But I am not sure whether it will have some special effect on culture. These are my questions if anyone could answer:

1) If a fort is located on an island in the middle of no where, does that mean everyone can use it? Even if say US has got some units on it, and then Russia, which hasn't got an open border agreement with US and neither at war with US, can still use the fort?

2) If a fort is located within someone's culture sphere, does it mean it will kick out all the units located on the fort if the owner has not got an open border with the culture?

Preferably, the answer would be NO to both 1 & 2.

1) Forts in neutral territory are neutral; so it depends on the unit(s) present first.

2) Forts within a culture belomg to that culture.

In general: there's a separate modcomp Forts w/culture borders available!

JEELEN said:

1) Forts in neutral territory are neutral; so it depends on the unit(s) present first.

2) Forts within a culture belomg to that culture.

In general: there's a separate modcomp Forts w/culture borders available!

Click to expand...

Thanks.

DVS, can we have the mod included?

Which mod is that?

sheep21 said:

Regarding Cyprus, I leave it down to you, there are seven to eight thousand British personnel permanently deployed on the island and it makes a great staging post for the Middle East. For playability I say give it to the UK, the EU have Crete, Malta & Sardinia anyway.

Click to expand...

I say leave it to the EU. UK and EU will have a Defensive Pact and open borders so we can perfectly garrison the needed British units in Nicosia. Since it is a military base and no British production site that can actually produce military units this should be the most realistic solution.