Armenian Genocide

Mouthwash,

Regarding Jews in Israel. Some time ago there was a video about Julian Tuwim (a pre-war Polish-Jewish poet and writer) on You Tube, and a large number of views of that video were from Israel. When I commented, asking why there are so many views from Israel, one of those Israeli guys responded (in Polish) that there are still a lot of people in Israel who can speak Polish, especially among the older generation.

Do you confirm that there are many descendants of Polish Jews in Israel?

I could never find any reliable statistics on that.

But the role of Polish Jews in the foundation of the state of Israel was important.

Including also Polish-Jewish soldiers from the Anders' Army, who stayed in Israel or emigrated there after the war.

They later served in the Israeli Army.

Domen said:

Mouthwash,

Regarding Jews in Israel. Some time ago there was a video about Julian Tuwim (a pre-war Polish-Jewish poet and writer) on You Tube, and a large number of views of that video were from Israel. When I commented, asking why there are so many views from Israel, one of those Israeli guys responded (in Polish) that there are still a lot of people in Israel who can speak Polish, especially among the older generation.

Do you confirm that there are many descendants of Polish Jews in Israel?

I could never find any reliable statistics on that.

But the role of Polish Jews in the foundation of the state of Israel was important.

Including also Polish-Jewish soldiers from the Anders' Army, who stayed in Israel or emigrated there after the war.

They later served in the Israeli Army.

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I have no idea. My grandfather was Polish, but I couldn't identify Israelis of Polish descent myself. In general, the division is between Ashkenazim and Sephardim, and which individual country we came from is just a bit of trivia.

"Watch out, Ustase and Turks, Ustase and Turks!"

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ı regularly irritate the Bosnians and not only those in CFC with a somehow "distorted" view of the 1990s and even before . So the point here , is it that all evil commies are enemies of even Turks , a previous version of Godlessness so one should stop bothering ? Or is it just a truth like we always learn in primary school that in Italy wayward children were at risk of getting given to Turks if they didn't eat their sprouts ?

opposing the Turks is what makes a man . It was and it is ; otherwise no explaining the 20th and 21st Centuries .

well , the New Turkey is on the path to ''accept'' the Genocide but the world seems to have "missed" it ... On the yearly struggle for April 24th where the only goal is getting the US President not to use the G-word , a first-ever declaration took place and the PM's office offered condolonces to the descendants of Armenians suffering and all in the 1915 deportations . Apart from regular diplomatic responses that call the event "Historic" and a breakthrough -in addition to A-K-P supporters who call anything of world shattering importance , nothing has "happened" . The US State Department wellcomes the development only as a prelude for calls to recognize it fully .

as for the US Presidential message , Barack Hussein produced his regular ; he said it and seemed like he didn't ... As if the Turkish Military was an independent entity instead of a puppet and wouldn't fight America's wars if affronted with such malicious , heinous (and a whole bag of words ending with the -ous) remarks . With a pointed reference that reminded the audience , as it were , that he had called it a genocide in his first election campaign and he had not changed his view pertaining to the events of 1915 . He uses the Armenian phrase "The Great Disaster" to refer to what happened with actually mentioning a great numbers of Armenians died in one of most cruelest events of the 20th Century . And every TV report in Turkey says "No, he didn't say it this year." Must be 6 years in a row ... Hussein goes on to encourage a frank discussion between the sides ; even Americans themselves are working to find out more about the dark spots in their own American history . Fully meant to discourage the "demand" on them to mind their own business ...

confident they will be flying their flags over what's currently Turkey after 2015 , the Armenians call it merely propaganda meant to avoid their coming rape of Turkey by all means possible ...


for the Armenians living in Turkey all reported reactions are positive ... Not a surprise in that only 5 Armenians are known by this poster by their repute on the Turkish media ; apart from the fan leader of Beşiktaş all of them are A-K-P supporters . (Although one is with the Congregation now .) Leads to a foregone conclusion that Hrant wouldn't have been happy . One of the guys , possibly the oldest one , was flying high on the night of PM's declaration . From him we learned Turkey is the source of tides on the world ; though it's also possible that he actually doesn't mean Turkey is the Moon up in the sky , some piece of rock orbiting Earth ... All about the new Cold War , according to him . By saying "Sorry for your losses." this mighty new Turkey is supposed to yank Armenia out of Russian hold and gain the whole freaking Caucaus from 'em evil Commie , the very pesky Russky . He naturally doesn't say they burn Turkish flags in Erivan on every 24th of April , the flag of their "new" masters . Hope this doesn't turn out to be Syria II . With the new Turkey shooting down Azeri planes after they foolishly refuse to see our newly found greatness ...

he of course says the compensations issue must be taken care of . And he ain't no alone . This Hakan Albayrak dude (who calls the PM "Reisim" -meaning My Captain- and from him we heard all about the Kemalists who called Inönü "Chief" and hence they were all Nazis) took a longer step . Not only the descendants of the Armenians , but the Greeks driven out during the Cyprus troubles -naturally by Kemalist conspiracy- and the seperatists killed in "combat"must be imbursed . To pass that , anybody who got hurt on "this" side will get the same ... The older Armenian dude , in an interview on the Voice of Russia , modified the proposal . It's now a 20 years programme . And here comes the clinch , the Foreigners love this new Turkey so much that they will be discreetly funding the compensations . 'Cause the Newly Rich love all the buzz words like Multi Cultural Democracy as long as somebody else pays -might accidentally show what they actually are if their wealth is to be dangered ... And sure enough on the same radio programme , some 10 minutes later , we also learn the A-K-P businessmen can not find the easy credit on the International markets on the scale they were accustomed to ; the State is now supposed to guarantee the lenders so that the glorified rape of the North Marmara area can go on , in the sacred trinity of the Autobahn , Flughafen und Kanal . Considering Qatar is not that rich and is" in" only to faciliate the creation of El Kaide havens in Turkey and Syria ... Supposedly can add to 50 billions of US dollars to the taxpayers' burden . Do not ever allow this to be interpreted as a copy-cat action with regards to Weimar Germany which supposedly didn't pay a single Pfenning in Versailles obligations with wholesale stealing of Wall Street loans by late 1920s .

and just of course , the favourite TV show of Wednesday nights ... The former Advisor to the PM / now the dean of an university , the Voice of the Counter-revolution , Prof.Dr. who-always-needs-to-be-reminded-that-Turkey-can-not-support-El-Kaide and Prof.Dr. who-hasn't-made-an-impact-yet holding court and actually laughing that they will all be termed as traitors with their beaming approval of the declaration that didn't made a single dent in Armenian positions . 'Cause you know the new Turkey -they did so much to create- is deemed capable of using chemical weapons to frame unruly neighbours so that they can be invaded by dearest of dears , America . The paper is brilliant , turns out the negative perception of the country around and all those racists and losers will be crying that it serves the interests of anybody apart from Turks . The 4 Proffessors see this as a pointless exercise and a negative view of potential of the country ; so much hurt by the cowardice and the inactivity of the losers so far ... The new Turkey can do , right ? As if the Prof.Dr. who-always-needs-to-be-reminded-that-Turkey-can-not-support-El-Kaide didn't immediately mention that the paper was certainly prepared with strict co-operation with the US State Department and think tanks . All four then went on to lament that the Turks are so racist and cowards that the Academia was never allowed to work with the dirty details and offer a counter-part to the long established Armenian thesis . The Voice of Counter-revolution actually hinting it didn't matter if it was real or not , perception was all that mattered . Tell it to this idiotic poster ; with 1701 happily zipping around , Zheng He fitting out and 1703 in the construction bay in Planetia Utopia off Mars . Actually , all the resistance from the Turkish Academia to the Armenian thesis stem from possible descendants of whom had some land grab back in the day , if not loss of family members . Looking on the TV screen , one can only surmise the Armenian death toll would surely been exposed as one million and a half minus one ; with minus one being the sole resistance ...

it will surely pass unnoticed that anybody who wants to pay can pay . From own wallet . Not even American war reperations will be available .

Masada said:

Not, really. The iffy parts represented only a fraction of the total area awarded (e.g. Trabzon which was awarded for other reasons i.e. to provide a port on the black sea).

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I always thought that the ethics of such decisions were questionable. If we accept that national self-determination is the only right by which a state can exist, it follows that it's profoundly wrong to draw national boundaries by any other criteria - say, the theory that Yugoslavia would ensure stability in the Balkans by acting as a regional power.

Flying Pig said:

I always thought that the ethics of such decisions were questionable. If we accept that national self-determination is the only right by which a state can exist, it follows that it's profoundly wrong to draw national boundaries by any other criteria - say, the theory that Yugoslavia would ensure stability in the Balkans by acting as a regional power.

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I agree. But the cat was out of the bag in this case. The Armenians had achieved their own independence which the Turks were unlikely to unwind. In any case, giving the Armenians Western Armenian was premised on rather more than just giving them the largest possible state with the most possible Armenians and the fewest possible Turks. (Although that was certainly one of the goals). Other aims included punishing the Turks for participation in the war, genocide of the Armenians and the means for the Armenian state to be viable. Viability in this case was tied to access to the seas and having sufficient power to protect themselves against and act as a balance against the Turks.

Oh, I understand that, my question is whether you can consider building states in that way to be moral. It rather destroys any pretence that the one doing it is acting dispassionately in the interests of the greater good, after all, if they nakedly create countries in ways that suit them.

It probably helps that "national self-determination" was only ever something intended for white people, and neither Turks nor Armenians quite cut the mustard in that respect.

Traitorfish said:

It probably helps that "national self-determination" was only ever something intended for white people, and neither Turks nor Armenians quite cut the mustard in that respect.

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But only certain white people. Certainly not Austrians.

Or Ashkenazi Jews?

(Everyone, name your favorite disenfranchised white ethnic group.)

Since when Turks and Armenians do not count as white people?

It probably helps that "national self-determination" was only ever something intended for white people

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Actually de-colonization in Africa is considered as one of successful implementations of self-determination.

But in fact we know that Africa is full of borders artificially drawn on maps by former colonizers.

Africa also has some of the most multi-ethnic countries on Earth, for example:

Kamerun - over 200 ethnic groups, of whom most numerous are Fang (20%), Bamileke (19%), Kirdi (15%), Fulani (8%), Duala (7%)
Kenya - 41 tribes belonging to several ethnic groups, including Kikuyu (21%), Luhya (19%)
Benin - 9 main ethnic groups (between 25% and 4%) comprising 92% of population
Burkina Faso - 8 main ethnic groups (between 48% and 3%) comprising 90% of population
Gabon - 4 main ethnic groups (between 36% and 12%) comprising 77% of population
Gambia - 5 main ethnic groups (between 40% and 8%) comprising 92% of population
Ghana - 6 main ethnic groups (between 52% and 1%) comprising 92% of population
Guinea - 5 main ethnic groups (between 40% and 5%) comprising 88% of population
Guinea Bissau - 5 main ethnic groups (between 27% and 10%) comprising 84% of population
Kongo - 7 main ethnic groups (between 51,5% and 1,5%) comprising 92,3% of population

Etc., etc.

On the other hand, examples of relatively mono-ethnic countries in Africa are:

Botswana - Tswana ethnic group = 75%
Burundi - Hutu ethnic group = 83%
Equatorial Guinea - Fang ethnic group = 73%

Etc., etc.


Link to video.

Haven't read all the posts, so, sorry if anyone shared this before me. But you guys should check this.

Turkey's Erdogan offers condolences for 1915 Armenia killings

(Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan offered what the government said were unprecedented condolences on Wednesday to the grandchildren of Armenians killed in World War One by Ottoman soldiers.

In a statement issued on the eve of the 99th anniversary of the deeply contested deaths, Erdogan unexpectedly described the events of 1915 as "inhumane", using more conciliatory language than has often been the case for Turkish leaders.

Turkish government officials said it was the first time a Turkish prime minister had offered such explicit condolences and described the statement as a historic step, but Erdogan's words were dismissed as "cold-hearted and cynical" by an influential U.S.-based Armenian advocacy group.

The exact nature and scale of what happened during fighting that started in 1915 is highly contentious and continues to sour relations between Turkey and Armenia, a former Soviet republic.

Turkey accepts that many Armenians died in clashes, but denies that up to 1.5 million were killed and that this constituted an act of genocide - a term used by many Western historians and foreign parliaments.

Earlier in April, for example, a U.S. Senate committee resolution branded the massacre of Armenians as genocide.

Erdogan's statement - unusually released in nine different languages including Armenian - repeated previous calls for dialogue between the two countries, and the setting up of a historical commission to probe events surrounding the killings.

"It is with this hope and belief that we wish that the Armenians who lost their lives in the context of the early 20th century rest in peace, and we convey our condolences to their grandchildren," he said.

"Having experienced events which had inhumane consequences - such as relocation - during the First World War, should not prevent Turks and Armenians from establishing compassion and mutually humane attitudes among towards one another."

Reuters

Mouthwash said:

Or Ashkenazi Jews?

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Ashkenazi got special treatment.

Domen said:

Actually de-colonization in Africa is considered as one of successful implementations of self-determination.

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I don't think decolonization can be called a success for self-determination seeing as how opposed the new states were to self-determination.

Domen said:

Since when Turks and Armenians do not count as white people?

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Both were considered foreign Asiatics in Australia from 1901 to 1973 or thereabouts.

there is nothing unexpected in the declaration . A-K-P apparently lost 2.3 million votes , economy is dependent on foreign input -the month long rally in the stockmarkets originating just before the elections was due a "tiny" input of 1,65 or so billion US dollars that came in . Congregation , hurt badly , still awaits America changing sides , supporting them this time . As such Ankara simply needs Washington's nod of approval . Weirdly or naturally enough , America wants it "accepted" here ...

trust Congregation and the like also trying to get this into "action" :



the head of the Supreme Court and everybody actually remembers he is not even a judge but brought in to faciliate the Counter-revolution . Him talking tough about the PM makes him a hero now ? Oh dear Turkey , one is to be alarmed by everything !

crosspost , was supposed to comment on the declaration .

Both were considered foreign Asiatics in Australia from 1901 to 1973 or thereabouts

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Well, but Australia is Australia, so it doesn't count as something normal, Non-Australian.

Race is entirely a subjective measure - it's reasonably self-evident that you could, if you wanted, group people based on physical similarity, but what you decide those groups to be is entirely arbitrary. Historically, only those of Christian European descent (often excluding Slavs) were considered 'white', or more accurately to inhabit the same privileged ethnic group for discrimination purposes

Domen said:

Well, but Australia is Australia, so it doesn't count as something normal, Non-Australian.

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We got our racial categorizations from the British.

No, historically West and East Slavs were considered 'white' - unlike French, Spanish, Italian, Welsh, Scottish, Greek and Irish people:

Check for example this map - based on "Races" according to Huxley (1870):

To me, the signs in landlords' windows saying 'no dogs, no blacks, no Irish' trump the 'scientific' 'understanding' of race. What matters is who considered whom to be their equal, and groups that we would today call 'white' were definitely not treated as the same as 'white' people. Even today, Gypsies are heavily discriminated against across Europe.

Gypsies originally came from India and India is very specific because it has historically been a huge melting pot of all peoples.

Pretty much like Balkans in European context, but to an even larger scale.

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BTW - the fact that modern French people are "not so white", might be the result of the Roman conquest.

Because Ancient Gauls prior to the Roman conquest - and thus prior to influx of Mediterranean settlers - were described as:

"(...) Gauls are tall of body, with rippling muscles, and white of skin, and their hair is blond. (...)"

- Diodorus Siculus, Book V. 28. 1.

On the other hand, Tacitus noticed a large number of red-haired people among Germanic tribes:

"(...) For my own part, I agree with those who think that the tribes of Germany are free from all taint of intermarriages with foreign nations, and that they appear as a distinct, unmixed race, like none but themselves. Hence, too, the same physical peculiarities throughout so vast a population. All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion. They are less able to bear laborious work. Heat and thirst they cannot in the least endure; to cold and hunger their climate and their soil inure them. (...)"

- Tacitus, "Germania": http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus-germania-excerp.asp

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When it comes to Irish people being counted as "not really white" in that English map from 1870.

This is obvious prejudice or manipulation, because Irish - at least today - are among the lightest-skinned and lightest-eyed people in Europe.

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Medieval English historian - Ralph of Coggeshall - wrote the following about Germans:

"(...) German nation breeds men of incredibly large height but dull-witted minds, leading in stature but deprived of honour. (...)"