[NEWCIV] - Ydil (a hive mind civ)

They can't recon, no heroes, no RELIGIOUS heroes, huge GP reduction, can't gain XP and must devote production to unit upgrades that seem dramatically unlikely to keep up with actual upgraded units - a stack of four level 10s is generally more than a match for ten level 4s, let alone what happens when a group with heroes hits a group with no heroes - and their unique civ benefit is that provided you build roads to every new city, which risks your workers from going insane, they have no unhappiness without any unique growth options?

I mean maybe there's something crazy you're holding in the wings but it sounds like these guys would get creamed on even middling difficulty, let alone against an actual person.

As an unrelated note, could you use foreign ambassadors to troll the Clan into starting a war with barbarians by constantly sacrificing them to the rampant leashed minotaurs or whatever?

That's a hefty list of weaknesses you've pointed out. Maybe, I need to revisit some aspects. At the moment, here's how I see it.

Regarding Confused/Crazed topping recon, the intention isn't to stop recon, just slow down the Ydil offensive. Perhaps I'll remove the Crazed part of the Disconnected scheme and just have them occasionally Confused. Confused will only make them Held for a couple of turns, so they'll still be able to explore.
I was also planning on making higher level Recon units immune to being Confused.
Confused was to slow down parts of an attacking Ydil army. I was considering that some units might culture bomb by building a short duration improvement, which would temporarily claim surrounding tiles as Ydil, so that an army can stay Connected while launching an offensive. Perhaps some sort of synapse units, similar to tyranids.
Esprit de Corps (until I think of a better name)
Spoiler :
This is the Great Commander equivalent for the Ydil so the AI should know to attach it to units it's sending off to war.
"Those who show most promise when being cultivated to form part of a Locus are sent with Ydil armies. Channelling the power in the minds of the army, they provide a continuous link to the hive mind, wherever the army goes. No longer cloaked by anonymity, they are always surrounded by a force of bodyguards. Even so, if threatened, the whole army will mobilise to defend them."
Give a 10% conversion chance to all Ydil units on the same tile.
Block gaining Confused for all Ydil units on the tile.
Can cast spell to attempt to culturally claim the nine surrounding tiles for one turn when in unowned/enemy territory.
The units base defence is 4 but it is boosted by 1 up to a max of 7, if there is a unit on the tile with Combat1/Combat3/Combat5.


I could give a similar Confused promo to enemy units in Ydil territory as their minds are attacked by the Hive Mind. This could slow down attempts to conquer them. The chance to convert enemy units in Ydil territory could also be pushed up from 5%.

I'm going to stick with the no national heroes. I think the political power given by the ambassadors is enough to make up for it.

Religious heroes might be something I should look at again. They do have a few religious advantages; instant spreading of religion and keeping their high priests.

They have the potential to gain a lot more traits than any other civ. Again, this is something where they are weak at the start but could become a powerhouse later. I might give them Insane from the beginning.

A 101 xp equates to 10^2+1, which is 10 levels of promotions. If the Ydil can survive long enough, their late game units will have more promotions than this as soon as they are built. Even their late game tier 1 units will be starting out as effective level 6 or more.

Getting the balance right on those promo buildings' costs will probably be the big challenge.

The roads are fairly vital to them unless they go for a harbor approach. Maybe, they need their own worker unit. Essentially the same as the standard worker but who can build roads faster to reflect the emphasis that the hive mind will put in establishing the route connections.

At feudalism (probably) I'd allow a Wonder to provide a second Hive Mind Connected bonus.

A late game wonder, probably around the same tech as the Nexus would mean that all Ydil cities could never have their link to the hive mind broken.

--
Sacrificing ambassadors is an interesting idea but not one I'll use. There is potential to give them abilities to stir up trouble among other nations or other powers akin to the old espionage.

---
I don't think I'll get much time to mod this week so it'll be at least the week after that before I can run some AI test games/issue rev 0.1. Please keep giving any critiques, comments or suggestions in the mean time.
 
Another idea that I'm considering;
Given that it is likely that some barbarian units are going to be converted after dying on Ydil territory, I could assign Hidden Nationality to Ydil units of the Orc/Goblin/Giantkin/centaur races.
For such units, I could reintroduce the chance of going barbarian if outside Ydil territory.
I might need to play with the displayed promotions (probably hide the connected/disconnected using the racial promotion), so it's not immediately obvious that they are controlled by the hive mind.
 
this is a neat idea.

you could add that all "converted" units keep the "converted" promotion that allow them to become barb instead of confused when outside territory.

regarding the balance point cited above, I'm not really worried about them being too weak.
IMO you should make them as is, let us/you test them, and if necessary balance them.

maybe they could have GC UU that serve as "relays" for the hive mind they have more "minions" than normal GC, they have no / few boosting promotions, but their minions have no risk of being confused / becoming barb.

Re-buildings:
if you have few buildings, why not have the wonders give you a trait, the trait giving the free promotion (limited to "on-unit-creation" though) thus, with a wonder/project and a trait, you make the economy of 1 building. and with "project" and "trait", you could even have the economy of 2 buildings. (and traits would not cluster the tech tree)
 
@Calavente,
Your GC suggestion is along the same lines as the "Esprit de Corps" (better name suggestions welcomed) GC unit that I had edited into the post above. They protect all units on the same tile from becoming Confused. Promos the GC provides will be applied to all units on the tile, not just "minions". I'm not bothering to change their number of minions as I'm seeing that more as a tool so the AI moves the unit with its army.

Before scribbling anything on this civ I had started off thinking about a Trait approach. Using the buildings will allow existing units to get the promos and allow for easy addition/removal on a city by city basis. I'll still be using traits for "emergent" traits and traits given when a Great Person joins the dominant hive mind. The way I'm looking at it; traits reflect the development of the hive mind's personality, whereas the promotion wonders/buildings reflect development of its knowledge. So, I'll probably stick with the building approach, using the wonders as civ buildings and all the actual promotion buildings as unbuildable, not bUnique (i.e. Available to all civs), not bGrapical (i.e. Not displayed in civilopedia).
I'm warming to the Converted unit promotion. I was moving away from allowing all of the Ydil units to get Crazed, so didn't want to bring that back for all of the Converted units. However, distinguishing Converted drones from the drones who have always lived in Ydil could link into the "Friendly" defence. This would make it available earlier to the Ydil when they need something to stop/slow an attacker. By the time they can send tier 4 units, they wouldn't need the "Friendly" defence. "Friendly" defence is where units don't want to attack because the enemy is perceived by them to be a "friend".
 
@Calavente,
Your GC suggestion is along the same lines as the "Esprit de Corps" (better name suggestions welcomed) GC unit that I had edited into the post above. They protect all units on the same tile from becoming Confused. Promos the GC provides will be applied to all units on the tile, not just "minions". I'm not bothering to change their number of minions as I'm seeing that more as a tool so the AI moves the unit with its army.
you know, having a limited number of minions is an important balance point.
if Ydil only need 1 GC per stack they can be quickly annoying and their limitation becomes more of a "thing-to-do" than a limitation. as soon as there is a GC, a huge stack of warriors arrive.
however, with "minions" : you can only get (at first) 4 per GC, then 5 , then 6 then, maybe 10

so endgame, with 5 GC, you can lead 50 units.. which is not bad.
 
Ydil GC only provide very limited promotions to the army;
Block Confusion
Boost conversion chance

They won't be getting all of the usual commander/minion promotions.

The Ydil are limited in their ability to attack outside their territory without GC, due to Confusion. The GC unit simply facilitates the type of offensive army movement that every other civ can take for granted. Other civs can confidently send huge stacks of warriors without waiting for a GC.

Ydil get fewer GC than other civs due to the civ trait and may want to use some GC to gain Traits. They are not going to have as many GC to lead their armies as the other civs will.
 
well, you are right.
but you stated that "not-going-outside-easily" is a limitation to Ydil in order to compensate for some other bonus.
if they only need 1 GC to be able to mount a huge attack, the limitation loses most of its meaning. (IMO)
 
I'll use minion promotions. I can always amend the number of units the GC can command (link to the hive mind). This also opens up the possibility of extending a GC's command range by granting them the relevant promo at some stage.
 
While I see your point cav, how many people mount an attack with only one stack? I generally have four stacks at the ready for my wars. The decreased rate of GC would hurt an offensive because it is rarely recommendable only to attack with one SoD.
 
you do ?
I often attack with 1 stack.. that separates later. reinforcement come then.
however, Ydil are supposed to have a hard time going out of their territory.

and anyway, GC allowing infinity of units instead of my "proposition" of only 8 at first and 15 (20?) end game still limit it to 1 stack per GC...

I have to make it known that when focusing on GC you can easily have 4-5 by mid game.
(with only defending, I'm not sure). however, maybe Ydil could get a free GC early ?

further, a question: I seem to remember tha GC spawn based on a counter raised by xp gained... is that true ? and if yes, as Ydil do not get xp, how will it work ?
 
Just my 1 cents: I really like this idea, a really unique civ. I think they could be overpowered, esp. at high levels. Not having a happiness cap in the early game would allow much more rapid growth of cities, and the extra size will allow easier settler building. I would much preffer if GC's did NOT need to use the minion mechanic, I find this to require too much micromanagement for me to find fun. I would imagine having to limit your army to as many stacks as you have GC's would be quite a handycap.
 
When the Ydil change state religion, it reflects a change in the belief of the core Consciousness, which is then the belief of all the subservient drones.
All cities receive the state religion and other religions are removed, unless it's a founding city. A memory of all known religions is maintained in the capital.
All owned religious units are converted into the equivalent (disciple/priest/high priest) of the new state religion. The Ydil version of high priests do not automatically desert when the religion is changed to allow for this conversion. As Esus doesn't really use disciple/priest/high priest units, when Esus is adopted as the state religion, the old religious units are retained.
I think Esus suits the Consciousness thematically, as it is trying to conceal its existence from those who would oppose it.
Does allowing the Ydil to have the high priests of one other religion, when Esus is the state religion, seem like too much of an advantage?
 
You could always block them from being able to cast unless you switch religions again.
 
Module is actually still progressing.

I've decided against my plans for the Hidden Nationality converted orcs. The unique Ydil promotions would make it obvious to a human player that it was a Ydil unit. If someone wants to use Hidden Nationality against the AI, then there's the Pact of the Nilhorn and Esus religious options. (It also felt like I was stealing an idea from the Jotnar Hill Giants).

This module requires very little new art. I've done a few simple buttons but the standard unit graphics meet most of my requirements. I'm using GarretSidzaki's Chuck Norris for the unarmed immortal.

A few bits of art I could use suggestions for are;
The Consciousness leader head art. This could be
  • the "token figurehead" that other leaders would deal with,
  • a medieval crowd within all of whom the Consciousness flows,
  • something more ephemeral to represent the intangible nature of the Consciousness.
A similar image (not the token figurehead) could be used for the civilization banner art in the Civilopedia.
Unit Graphic for the Ambassador unit. I'm using Chalid as the placeholder but would switch it if someone has a better suggestion.

---

Does anyone know if the AI will tend to build Wonders more if the leader has the Industrious trait?

I can counteract the benefits of this trait within the Ydil civ trait but I want to be sure that the Ydil will try to build the Wonders.

Is it just a question of adjusting the
iAIWeight, iAsset and iPower values in the BuildingInfos?
 
Version 0.1 is issued.
This is a fairly complete first draft.

Cities are Happy when Connected and Unhappy when not connected. Settlers can build roads at a fast rate to facilitate maintaining links. The palace, a couple of Wonders and the Obsidian Gates also provide the Connection bonus.
There are lots of promotion wonder buildings. Each of these creates the associated promotion buildings in Connected cities.
Civic promotion buildings are also enabled for Apprenticeship and Conquest as the Ydil do not benefit from the free xp from these civics.
The Ydil are not denied the religious heroes. The theory is that their faith shields them from The Consciousness direct control but they are still indirectly influenced through all of the Ydil drone citizens that they deal with. They can not get the Ydil Drone, Connected or Disconnected promotions and are the only Ydil units that can progress through xp.
The xp for all other Ydil units is zeroed each turn. Sudden gifts of xp can be converted into research. Ydil units gain beakers towards research when they defeat an opponent. (They also gain the xp to facilitate GC spawning but this will be zeroed on the subsequent turn).
The Ydil Disconnected chance to become Confused (Held) when Ydil units are outside of their territory is balanced by the fact that foreign units may become similarly Confused when in Ydil territory.
World spell uses the 2 level gain suggested by Calavente.
The Consciousness can gain new traits through Great People/Links and does not gain them through the Emergent methods.
Instant religious spread and religious unit conversion on changing state religion is in the module.
Ambassadors and the associated Reports are in, as are all of the described unique units.
 
Version 0.2 issued.
Few minor changes outlined in the first post. See second post for missing pedia entries.
 
@Lark, Whenever additions/deletions are made to xml in a version, it's guaranteed to break saves.

How far had you got with version 0.1? What did you think of the cost of the promotion Wonders and did you have any other issues?
 
How far had you got with version 0.1? What did you think of the cost of the promotion Wonders and did you have any other issues?

Not very, not hardly, and the only real one was not having a clue.


I am Confused, sir. Which way is Aipotu?


In game 2, I am roughly halfway through the third column of techs.
Aside from not understanding still, some minor stuff:
I haven't figured out how to get Subdue Animal on Scouts or Skilled on Workers.
-Working Knowledge (from your post) isn't available.
-Sensory Knowledge (not in your post) is.
-The only PW I've built is Combat Knowledge; it was cheap, available at the start, and a Worker would have had nothing to do since I went for God King first.

The Dagda & Blazing Sword events give +2 and -2 relations, not +/-1. Is that you?
The spy event could stand to have an Ydil option added.

I found Sailing faster than roads for connecting cities, since the Workers are slow and they and their protectors go crazy outside my territory.

My first two cities were Erewhon and Colud, so I did an Internet search for 'Idyl, "nowhere could"':
"nowhere could be more peaceful than Sarn-y-Plas" (looks like relevant fantasy but was actually a minor Welsh PC political squabble) and
"But midday came, and nowhere could I see One footprint of the beast or hear his roar." (which is really fantasy but not really germane).

Then I founded my fourth city (#3 was Kalocly) and enlightenment dawned. Though I still had to look up Duloc and Airstrip One :o.

....Fumbling onward.


Edit: one less-minor problem: I researched OO - I figured it was appropriate - but now I can't figure out how to adopt it. "Cannot Convert to Octopus Overlords."
 
Spoiler :
Not very, not hardly, and the only real one was not having a clue.


I am Confused, sir. Which way is Aipotu?


In game 2, I am roughly halfway through the third column of techs.
Aside from not understanding still, some minor stuff:
I haven't figured out how to get Subdue Animal on Scouts or Skilled on Workers.
-Working Knowledge (from your post) isn't available.
-Sensory Knowledge (not in your post) is.
-The only PW I've built is Combat Knowledge; it was cheap, available at the start, and a Worker would have had nothing to do since I went for God King first.

The Dagda & Blazing Sword events give +2 and -2 relations, not +/-1. Is that you?
The spy event could stand to have an Ydil option added.

I found Sailing faster than roads for connecting cities, since the Workers are slow and they and their protectors go crazy outside my territory.

My first two cities were Erewhon and Colud, so I did an Internet search for 'Idyl, "nowhere could"':
"nowhere could be more peaceful than Sarn-y-Plas" (looks like relevant fantasy but was actually a minor Welsh PC political squabble) and
"But midday came, and nowhere could I see One footprint of the beast or hear his roar." (which is really fantasy but not really germane).

Then I founded my fourth city (#3 was Kalocly) and enlightenment dawned. Though I still had to look up Duloc and Airstrip One .

....Fumbling onward.

I should be issuing 0.3 tomorrow/this week-end.
This has all the text included, so should be (relatively) understandable.
Subdue Animals and Subdue Beasts were overlooked. I'll add in wonder to deal with them. These might not be in 0.3 (or might delay it slightly). If there's any other major gaps in the Ydil promos (see Wonder descriptions in post 2), let me know and I'll stick them in.
Working Knowledge wonder was omitted from the civilization infos. This is fixed in 0.3.
Dagda and Blazing Sword aren't module related. I have not included any Ydil specific events or event options. I may look at this after version 0.3.
I'm removing the going Crazed part of Disconnected. It's gone in 0.3.
Sailing is a smart move for the Ydil. I've switched to running my test games with low sea level to see if they still cope well.

Congrats on working out the city names. Naming cities can be a pain, so once I got the idea, I just ran with it and when I found Erewhon that put a different spin on it. There 's an extra clue/veiled reference to Colud in the civ quote - part of the text being added in 0.3.
 
Top Bottom