Why did NATO adopt the 5.56 when it's hitting power was worse than the 7.62 ?

I don't think it is. And I don't know why you would want it to be. (Correction, there's a blocker that disables the feature, but can be manually disengaged).

Because in 5.56 mm weapon, that is one of the few advantages, controllable automatic fire (and lightness of ammo to sustain it).

I'm sure a 5.56 has the ability to hit a target at 500m, but I still think the testimony of many soldiers calls for something with improved long range ballistics, penetration and hitting power. Even at engagement ranges less than 400m; light cover, crosswinds, and foliage can render the weapon ineffective, where a 7.62 mm will be unimpaired.

As I understand it AR 10s and other 7.62mm assault rifles are reentering the front lines of many armed forces at the section level, and that is without the platoon level sniper. And development of 6.5mm weapons (or something close) continues.
 
Even at engagement ranges less than 400m; light cover, crosswinds, and foliage can render the weapon ineffective, where a 7.62 mm will be unimpaired.

Where did you hear that? You can still punch through a fair amount of near-target protection with the 5.56, including any foliage short of a yew tree, and as for windage well on the range yes but in combat not unless they're really giving it some; and that's the same for 7.62. 5.56 is a very accurate round and has far more prenetration than people give it credit for, mostly because old squaddies complained at losing their elephant rounds and almost subconsciously made up a placebo-effect myth of the round being ineffective.
 
I don't have battlefield experience on human opponents with either round (gratefully), but in my training days there were demonstrable differences. My opinion has been reinforced by the experience of soldiers recently returning from Afghanistan, including my son.

There are long lines of sight in many engagements there which snipers have taken full advantage of. But even at ranges <300m, many Taliban fighters have been able to run wounded with multiple 5.56 shots. They may not know they are already dying but what good is that if they have time to trigger an IED or communicate/warn their fellows ? (Its also not very humane, if that should be a consideration). Wind is also a major factor in Afghanistan, in Vietnam I would think it would have been foliage. I guarantee I can put 7.62mm rounds through trees (and they are not yew) that a 5.56mm will not. My perception is that 5.56 is also more subject to deflection.

Although I'm pointing out some weaknesses with the 5.56 - I acknowledge it is still powerful enough for most situations, especially those at which full auto capability in a handy rifle at initial contact is a necessity, followed by controlled bursts. I'm convinced, the 5.56 assault rifles are still extremely effective weapons. It is a tradeoff and it is not possible to have the best qualities of both in either. Hence, new calibers have been under investigation. If you read my posts, these are the experts, not me.
 
vogtmurr said:
Because in 5.56 mm weapon, that is one of the few advantages, controllable automatic fire (and lightness of ammo to sustain it).

It still has a three round burst, which is perfectly adaquete to the task. To my understanding, that is how Australian troops are instructed to use it.
 
It still has a three round burst, which is perfectly adaquete to the task. To my understanding, that is how Australian troops are instructed to use it.

practice will vary depending on the situation - but to make a 5.56mm bullpup assault rifle and issue it to your troops with fully automatic fire disabled, would in my opinion be a waste of time. And that is what the questions was about - whether it is capable.
 
Early versions of the M 16 had full auto fire. Late versions of it were limited to 3 round burst. They did not have a full auto option, unless the gun were modified somehow.
 
In general using it fully automatic is bad. You waste the ammo capacity advantage and can't hit anything after teh first couple rounds. Burt fire is where it has always been. Since the earliest machneguns, sustained fire was not good. Instead firing 3 round bursts gets lots of round on target fast without completely ruining your accuracy.
With a bullpup you still have the advantage of the shorter rifle.

And they are capable of fully automatic if it becomes necessary.

Hell, the standard US rifles are not mechanically capable of fully automatic fire.

Once again there are tradeoffs between burst and full auto and whether automatic is available or not.
 
But even at ranges <300m, many Taliban fighters have been able to run wounded with multiple 5.56 shots. They may not know they are already dying but what good is that if they have time to trigger an IED or communicate/warn their fellows ? (Its also not very humane, if that should be a consideration).

And why would a bigger bullet do much better? I've already explained how shot placement is paramount. If you don't hit a vital part of the body, then you're not going to get guaranteed immediate incapacitation. It's as true for any caliber until you get into the ridiculously large stuff.
 
I don't have battlefield experience on human opponents with either round (gratefully), but in my training days there were demonstrable differences. My opinion has been reinforced by the experience of soldiers recently returning from Afghanistan, including my son.

On the ranges, for sure, but that may also have been down to differences in the rifles. Older rifles often (at least in theory) are design for accuracy at long ranges, and aren't all that distinguishable from target rifles. More modern rifles, though (I'm thinking of the M4/M16, SA80 and so on) are consciously designed with the understanding that a soldier's work requires far more than just accurate shooting - in fact, that accurate shooting is often a secondary concern. For example, something like an SMLE might have a long barrel for accuracy, while an SA80 has quite a short one, because carrying the rifle around and using it in close environments (such as getting out of a vehicle or aircraft, or moving around an urban environment) is easier with the latter. Bear in mind the precision you have in range shooting - a good shot puts down two-minute groups, which means all of the bullets land within one part in thirty of a degree - and then consider that the lovely body-position and regulated breathing goes to pot when you're in combat.

Best of luck to Vogtmurr mark 2, by the way.

There are long lines of sight in many engagements there which snipers have taken full advantage of.

Those long lines of sight only really exist if you're lying in wait with a telescopic sight. A normal patrol, scanning its arcs, probably won't see a cammed-up enemy beyond 400m. Even then, very few soldiers, firing with iron sights and only their arms for support, will be able to hit a human-sized target at (say) 800 yards within ten shots, even if said target is simply standing still in full view.

But even at ranges <300m, many Taliban fighters have been able to run wounded with multiple 5.56 shots. They may not know they are already dying but what good is that if they have time to trigger an IED or communicate/warn their fellows ? (Its also not very humane, if that should be a consideration).

While I don't doubt that the occasional one has, that's very rare indeed and they're always in that sort of case very poorly placed shots. As BF said, that will happen with nearly any round.

Wind is also a major factor in Afghanistan, in Vietnam I would think it would have been foliage. I guarantee I can put 7.62mm rounds through trees (and they are not yew) that a 5.56mm will not. My perception is that 5.56 is also more subject to deflection.

Perhaps I exaggerated slightly, but the point stands. 5.56 is good enough for pretty much any cover or protection that the enemy might be wearing; 7.62 is better but we don't actually need that degree of penetration at the cost of the increased weight, recoil and physical size. It's all a compromise, really.

The concern, incidentally, is not so much the weight of the bullet per se, but the energy that it has when it flies - which is a factor of its mass and the square of its velocity. In other words, a bullet with half the mass but twice the velocity hits four times as hard. Similarly, wind deflection is a factor of the bullet's weight, its ballistic profile (a larger round has a bigger surface area to be acted upon), and the amount of time that it's in the wind. In other words, you often find that a small bullet moving very fast will be affected less by wind than a large bullet moving relatively slowly.

5.56 in the loads that the military use is more subject to deflection, but that's not the fault of the bullet - it's to do with how much and what sort of powder is behind it.

In general using it fully automatic is bad. You waste the ammo capacity advantage and can't hit anything after teh first couple rounds. Burt fire is where it has always been. Since the earliest machneguns, sustained fire was not good. Instead firing 3 round bursts gets lots of round on target fast without completely ruining your accuracy.

Well, machine-gunners don't do that because firing belts and belts of ammunition will overheat and wear out the barrel, but for ordinary riflemen, in general, a few shots fired accurately work better (even for suppression) than many shots fired inaccurately. It's relatively easy for a moderately experienced soldier to tell when enemy fire is effective.

I like burst of two to four rounds, in general. The one thing I'd say sustained fire really has going for it is at close ranges, whether it's as a show of force - if you can put ten rounds through a window when the enemy pops up, he's going to get his head down sharpish and perhaps think that there are more of you than there are - or for when the enemy appears within bayonet range and you want to be certain about it. There's something very comforting about just squeezing and knowing that you're putting out an unholy amount of firepower before he can react.

Hell, the standard US rifles are not mechanically capable of fully automatic fire.

Which I consider a design fault - see above- but understandable considering that they're designed to be suitable for troops who aren't as well-trained as the British; conscripts in Vietnam for example. That said, including automatic fire with a 7.62 rifle is probably also a design fault.

Once again there are tradeoffs between burst and full auto and whether automatic is available or not.

I would always say that if the training's available, teaching people to operate a fully-automatic weapon in bursts is the best approach.

And why would a bigger bullet do much better? I've already explained how shot placement is paramount. If you don't hit a vital part of the body, then you're not going to get guaranteed immediate incapacitation. It's as true for any caliber until you get into the ridiculously large stuff.

Well, not quite true. 7.62 is far better at salvaging bad hits - for example, shooting a drugged-up Liberian in the leg, which soldiers using the SA80 complained didn't always stop the man from attacking - than 5.56, because it causes enough damage that pain threshold isn't a factor - that is, the bottom half of his shin-bone stops being attached to the top! But you're right, it's far from perfect, and if you hit someone in a vital organ with anything they'll go down.

That said, the 5.56 round is designed to work more through a phenomenon called hydrostatic shock, in which a faster (but lighter) round creates pressure waves in the body as it hits, which cause damage such as internal bleeding and brain haemorrhaging at a relatively long distance from the entry wound. Not particularly pleasant, but effective - it's essentially a scaled-down version of what happens when you fire a .50 HMG in the general vicinity of a target and still 'hit' it, because the pressure wave generated by the round is lethal even if the round itself misses.
 
I would always say that if the training's available, teaching people to operate a fully-automatic weapon in bursts is the best approach.
It definitely is. But militaries have to balance their budgets. You can increase training, but then you may not be able to afford as many men or as good of weapons.
 
Everything here is 'almost true' aside from a full grown 4x4 deer with the average weight of 190-210lbs is extensively identical to the muscular and skeletal make up of those of a human. Now while we're discussing rounds,velocity,Kennetic energy.. And the rate these numbers change at which yards/mergers...which I haven't seen anyone put out exact numbers yet...all that aside. Hunters deal in yards, because that's how our scopes are set up....at 450 yards 4 years ago I Watched my step father drop that 4x4 Idaho Muley, after mocking him and telling him that shot was wayyyy to far, but knowing his bullet drop and a range finder. He made it happen...using the 5.56! And I'll tell you why, I haven't heard anyone mention anything about belt type. It's called a Fiochii Sierra bullet in a 64g hollow point baby!! You should have seen what that round did internally at 450 yards. Now, insurgents hopped up on Mnt. Dew and crack at 75-100 yards, with a hollow point, won't make it 10 feet, before their heart pumps all the blood into their lungs. And if it was a non vital wound, that round will still take and/or dang near remove limbs of bodies. So the military's idea of going to.a 64g 5.56 with a Fairly flat shooting distance at 300 yards, was a GREAT idea..they should just be using hollow points. Want to kill quick, fast, and spen about 6 cents more each round just pull the trigger 1 time?? Use a hollow point. I spent 6 years in the army. We should be using some hollow points. Bam!!! Have a good night ladies and gents.
 
Use of hollow points or other "dum dum" bullets by the military is prohibited under the Hague Convention.
 
Use of hollow points or other "dum dum" bullets by the military is prohibited under the Hague Convention.

Is it just forbidden to use them against lawful combatants, or against anyone? And might HPs be more merciful by creating a larger wound and so a quicker death?
 
The problem is that they do create a larger wound, but usually one which kills people over a long period of time. In a hunting situation, the expectation is that the hunter will shoot an animal, but then kill it only shortly afterwards if it is only disabled. That's not what happens in a military situation - indeed, the whole reason why many weapons are (illegally, at least in theory) designed to wound is because a wounded man uses up far more of a section's resources (one casualty, plus, say, two men to carry and look after him, plus time and supplies to treat him) than a dead one (one casualty, perhaps plus one to carry him). The laws of war apply regardless of who the enemy is - you can't, for example, start firing flamethrowers or throwing anthrax at the enemy just because they're not wearing uniform. The only different case is prisoners of war, as you can only claim that status (that is, as opposed to a normal prisoner of crime) by being part of an organised military group.
 
I'm surprised nobody has apparently mentioned the AK-74. It uses a 5.45x39mm round and was adopted during the 70s to rival the M16. But they didn't become as popular. There were an estimated 100 million Ak-47s produced but only 5 million Ak-74s.
 
Good luck with accurate fire from one of those - although for levelling a grid square and fun factor I quite agree

You'd be surprised at how accurate one can be with the M2. Whenever we went to the range to fire ours, I would always get complements from my commander about the accuracy with which I fired the M2.
 
I'm surprised nobody has apparently mentioned the AK-74. It uses a 5.45x39mm round and was adopted during the 70s to rival the M16. But they didn't become as popular. There were an estimated 100 million Ak-47s produced but only 5 million Ak-74s.


The difference between an AK-47's round and an AK-74's isn't quite as profound as that between an M-14's or G3's 7.62x51mm and an M4's or SA80's 5.56x45mm. The 7.62x39mm was already a lighter, less powerful, easier to control round for automatic weapons than the Russian/Soviet rifle round, the 7.62x54mm. The 5.56 weighs less than half (11.8 grams) what a a 7.62 NATO (25.5 grams) round does. A 5.45 (10.5 grams) only weighs a third less than a 7.62x39mm (16.3 grams.) As well established and widespread as the AK-47 (and SKS before it) was when the 5.45 was introduced, there was far less impetus to make the switch.
 
You'd be surprised at how accurate one can be with the M2. Whenever we went to the range to fire ours, I would always get complements from my commander about the accuracy with which I fired the M2.

I've certainly heard of people making long-range 'sniper' shots with those, taking advantage of the tripod and extremely powerful round to shoot more accurately and with less regard for wind than with an ordinary rifle. How accurately did you manage to shoot in burst or SF, though? From what I remember the sights were rather primitive and firing positions usually had the gunner a long way back from them, neither of which help accuracy - gunners were encouraged to hit 'there or thereabouts' in most situations. That said, we didn't have much practice on heavy machine-guns, since they were considered (quite rightly, in my view) not something that airborne troops should learn to rely on - instead, they let us keep the 7.62mm GPMG when the rest of the army converted over to the 5.56 LMG. Interestingly, they've recently started having their LMGs converted back into 7.62 - most of the arguments for a smaller rifle cartridge don't make as much sense when applied to a machine-gun.
 
I've certainly heard of people making long-range 'sniper' shots with those, taking advantage of the tripod and extremely powerful round to shoot more accurately and with less regard for wind than with an ordinary rifle. How accurately did you manage to shoot in burst or SF, though? From what I remember the sights were rather primitive and firing positions usually had the gunner a long way back from them, neither of which help accuracy - gunners were encouraged to hit 'there or thereabouts' in most situations. That said, we didn't have much practice on heavy machine-guns, since they were considered (quite rightly, in my view) not something that airborne troops should learn to rely on - instead, they let us keep the 7.62mm GPMG when the rest of the army converted over to the 5.56 LMG. Interestingly, they've recently started having their LMGs converted back into 7.62 - most of the arguments for a smaller rifle cartridge don't make as much sense when applied to a machine-gun.

Ah, you were airborne. Yeah it makes sense that you guys didn't see much need to become proficient in the use of heavy machineguns. I was in a cavalry scout unit and we did most of our fighting from our vehicles so we actually became more proficient with our M240Bs, M2s, and Mk 19s than we were with our rifles. Every one of us could lay down accurate fire from just about any crew-served weapon in our arsenal.

As for how accurate I was in burst fire: I would miss about 1 shot out of every burst and we were trained to fire in 6 to 9 round bursts.
 
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