Unhealthiness

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Just wonder...
I was wondering if anyone is having real troubles with healthiness in industrial era or early modern. From what I've seen with lots of autoplayed games, AI is starving some of its cities because of healthiness problems. I've reworked a bit the production function to push on healthiness when needed and it's a bit better. But apart from those civs having lots of resources or food, many civs have their cities shrinking compared to previous eras and this sounds wrong. I was wondering if anyone feels it's necessary to have a bit more health in industrial era.
Vokarya, have you ever looked at how healthiness and unhealthiness develop through eras? Might we need just a little boost to healthiness in industrial era? Just one or two health points provided either by buildings or techs?
 
I am in the mid-industrial era in my current game and virtually all of my major cities are unhealthy
 
I'd expect them to be unhealthy in the industrial age, but if it doesn't revert in the modern era, then there's a problem, yes.
 
I'd expect them to be unhealthy in the industrial age, but if it doesn't revert in the modern era, then there's a problem, yes.
It works like that more or less. But let me rephrase it: the problem for me is when it causes starvation. I don't like a 15 size city go back to size 4 and then rise back to 15 after 1 era. That's what sometimes happens to AI.
 
Oh yes, that's clearly an issue. Some stagnation might be expected, but not thousands of people dying of starvation. That's clearly silly.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13906862 said:
I was wondering if anyone is having real troubles with healthiness in industrial era or early modern. From what I've seen with lots of autoplayed games, AI is starving some of its cities because of healthiness problems. I've reworked a bit the production function to push on healthiness when needed and it's a bit better. But apart from those civs having lots of resources or food, many civs have their cities shrinking compared to previous eras and this sounds wrong. I was wondering if anyone feels it's necessary to have a bit more health in industrial era.
Vokarya, have you ever looked at how healthiness and unhealthiness develop through eras? Might we need just a little boost to healthiness in industrial era? Just one or two health points provided either by buildings or techs?

My experience has been that the Industrial Era is definitely where unhealth starts to be a major problem. I can usually keep up with the unhealth from buildings as long as I work at the health giving buildings before the unhealthy ones, but it almost always means running Socialized and staying away from the dirty power plants. The early power plants are MASSIVE health hits, because there is a -2 health from power in general, an additional -4 health from dirty power, and the Coal Plant gives -2 health on top of that.

I haven't done any kind of major look at health/unhealth, mostly because population is such a factor. It seems to be about 1/3 to 1/2 of a city's total unhealth is from population, and about equal from buildings, with the remainder from a few sources (resources, improvements, flood plains).

I still haven't done the water modifications I want to do; that will change Artesian Well from +3 food to +1 health (the +1 food from Rice migrates to Irrigation Canals), and I was going to roll that bonus into Water Treatment Plant as well (increasing it to a flat +3 health). Losing Artesian Well's food bonus will also lower city populations and growth rates a little.

I was also going to lower Aqueduct from 0.15 to 0.10 health per citizen, and I was thinking about lowering WTP and Waste Digester as well, but if you think there's a problem with health, I can leave those alone.

I would look at lowering unhealth penalties on buildings before raising health on others. That means you don't have as many wild swings. Is there a specific part of the era that's giving trouble? Depending on where the problem is, I think a few places to look would be lowering Levee to -1 (remember, it's 0 in BTS and the -2 is an Afforess add-on), reducing the Tobacco unhealth penalty on Supermarket to -1 (so it's no worse than Grocer), lowering Arsenal to -2, and maybe even lowering International Port to -3. Some of these only apply to specific cities, though.

I was also considering a rework of Fertilizers; it adds +3 health, which seems like a lot. If there was a way to have it directly boost the yield of Farms, that would be nice. The nominal +1 food or +1 production seen on some resources is the tile bonus, not a civ-wide bonus; it looks to me like only happiness and health can be adjusted by resources alone (without buildings).
 
My experience has been that the Industrial Era is definitely where unhealth starts to be a major problem. I can usually keep up with the unhealth from buildings as long as I work at the health giving buildings before the unhealthy ones, but it almost always means running Socialized and staying away from the dirty power plants. The early power plants are MASSIVE health hits, because there is a -2 health from power in general, an additional -4 health from dirty power, and the Coal Plant gives -2 health on top of that.

I haven't done any kind of major look at health/unhealth, mostly because population is such a factor. It seems to be about 1/3 to 1/2 of a city's total unhealth is from population, and about equal from buildings, with the remainder from a few sources (resources, improvements, flood plains).

I still haven't done the water modifications I want to do; that will change Artesian Well from +3 food to +1 health (the +1 food from Rice migrates to Irrigation Canals), and I was going to roll that bonus into Water Treatment Plant as well (increasing it to a flat +3 health). Losing Artesian Well's food bonus will also lower city populations and growth rates a little.

I was also going to lower Aqueduct from 0.15 to 0.10 health per citizen, and I was thinking about lowering WTP and Waste Digester as well, but if you think there's a problem with health, I can leave those alone.

I would look at lowering unhealth penalties on buildings before raising health on others. That means you don't have as many wild swings. Is there a specific part of the era that's giving trouble? Depending on where the problem is, I think a few places to look would be lowering Levee to -1 (remember, it's 0 in BTS and the -2 is an Afforess add-on), reducing the Tobacco unhealth penalty on Supermarket to -1 (so it's no worse than Grocer), lowering Arsenal to -2, and maybe even lowering International Port to -3. Some of these only apply to specific cities, though.

I was also considering a rework of Fertilizers; it adds +3 health, which seems like a lot. If there was a way to have it directly boost the yield of Farms, that would be nice. The nominal +1 food or +1 production seen on some resources is the tile bonus, not a civ-wide bonus; it looks to me like only happiness and health can be adjusted by resources alone (without buildings).

Well, the problem with power plants is that they also require Factory and that's 2 more :yuck:. We could reduce Dirty Power from 4 to 2 :yuck:, what do you think? And maybe lowering Levee from -2 to -1 and Arsenal from -3 to -2 (or even -1). I think that might be enough. I'll run some test and I'll let you know; in the meantime, I've somehow made the situation better by just prioritizing health buildings for AI (if city is starving)
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;13907509 said:
Well, the problem with power plants is that they also require Factory and that's 2 more :yuck:. We could reduce Dirty Power from 4 to 2 :yuck:, what do you think? And maybe lowering Levee from -2 to -1 and Arsenal from -3 to -2 (or even -1). I think that might be enough. I'll run some test and I'll let you know; in the meantime, I've somehow made the situation better by just prioritizing health buildings for AI (if city is starving)

OK. I think that the -2 health from all power is hard-coded. (It's there in BTS.) Coal power in BTS is only -4 health total (-2 from power in general, -2 from dirty power, no unhealth just from the building). If you want to lower that, I wouldn't mind.

Factory is actually even worse than -2, it's an additional -2 with Coal and -2 with Oil. I'd consider lowering those because Factory does not benefit in any way from Coal or Oil. It's more of getting stuck with an additional penalty just for having fossil fuels.
 
OK. I think that the -2 health from all power is hard-coded. (It's there in BTS.) Coal power in BTS is only -4 health total (-2 from power in general, -2 from dirty power, no unhealth just from the building). If you want to lower that, I wouldn't mind.

Factory is actually even worse than -2, it's an additional -2 with Coal and -2 with Oil. I'd consider lowering those because Factory does not benefit in any way from Coal or Oil. It's more of getting stuck with an additional penalty just for having fossil fuels.

Removing those penalties from the Factory sounds like a good place to start.
 
I'm not sure if you've already done unhealthiness changes (before r985), but it seems weird to me that in the ancient era unhealthiness seems like it can be completely ignored because the steep unhappiness penalties for big population. This seems to continue in some extent at least to medieval era. It might just be me hoarding resources and thus not noticing any green faces, but it disturbed me anyway.

Would it be possible to let unhealthiness control the city growth a bit more, while making the happiness penalties more smooth (I don't especially like the 4 pop sudden unhappiness). Unhealthiness making a sudden jump at certain population limits would be less noticable and would make city size limit more subtle, more like in vanilla Civ4, and also like in real history. After all, it was rivers and food resources that attracted greater populations in the ancient times.

What do you think, 45deg & Vokarya & team?
 
I suggest more food (for fight the population death) but more unhealty... in the begining of industrial era the city was very sicky and ungry
 
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