The Byzantine Empire

I wonder if Theodora will speak Byzantine Greek or Late Latin in game. It seems like Greek is more probable. Can anyone here understand Byzantine/Medieval Greek?

We already got Rome and Greece, why do we get Rome in Greece again?

^ Because they were culturally different and a major power of the time.

Guandao said:

I wonder if Theodora will speak Byzantine Greek or Late Latin in game. It seems like Greek is more probable. Can anyone here understand Byzantine/Medieval Greek?

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I hope it's medieval Greek. It would fit well because Alexander speaks Attic Greek (Greek of Athens). Even modern Greek would be fine because it's a direct ancestor. Latin is ok (aside from the fact that we can't be positive what Latin of the period sounded like), but it doesn't do much to differentiate Classical Rome from Medieval Byzantium. While Justinian spoke Latin, Theodora's more modest origins might mean she speaks Greek.

Louis XXIV said:

^ Because they were culturally different and a major power of the time.

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I don't think that, personally, Greece and Rome are Byzantium in terms of CIV. This would be like creating a CIV for every time Denmark changed age (Vikings, Kalmar Union, Denmark-Norway, Denmark). It's unnecessary. Byzantium just represent a different time-period in Rome and Greece's history. Likewise Italy is a redundant nation because we have Rome.

SammyKhalifa said:

I'd imagine that you'll be able to reliably found your own religion if you put any effort into doing so, though. This isn't like a wonder race where there's only one "winner."

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I agree with this.

Looking at the latest Tech Charts, you can start building shrines as soon as you research Pottery.

If you start off with Pottery, build a Shrine before a Granary (and maybe even Monument), and strategically choose a Pantheon belief that provides Faith, then it seems likely that you will found a religion before the other civs research Calendar and build Stonehenge or research Writing + Philosophy and build temples. And of course, in the meantime, you can pursue either of those routes as well.

The main things that might screw you are:

1. Celts starting near forests (and maybe Mayas if their UB is really a faith-producing monument).

2. AI civs all start with Pottery (based on difficulty level) and have a high enough Religion flavor that they all build shrines very early on.

3. AI civs get lucky with ancient ruins (which can produce faith).

*** Another thing which might affect things but we need to wait for the release to find out, is whether AI's get faith discounts at higher difficulty levels.

If you beeline a religion strategy, you probably won't have much trouble founding a religion with the Byzantines.

Even if you do end up in a Deity game where everyone is religion-focused, it's not that different from Egypt not being able to benefit much from its trait in a Deity level game where the AI is ahead in techs and has production/growth bonuses such that you get beat in all the early wonders anyway....

Since there are several steps to founding a religion (i.e. choosing to build a shrine, choosing the pantheon belief, choosing to go Stonehenge/Temple) I think the player will be better positioned to take advantage of this game feature (much like how players are far better able to make the most out of Research Agreements).

Louis XXIV said:

^ Because they were culturally different and a major power of the time.

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Indeed, Byzantium is one of the longest lasting Empires in history, over a thousand years. They were culturally different from the classical Greeks thanks to the Slavic and barbarian invasions as well as the progress of time, and separated by time and religion from the Romans of Augustus' era.

They were also geographically separated from the Romans of Augustus's era. They were "Rome" without Rome, which is something they were very much conscious of (and is another reason why "Italy" is not a good example to use when wondering why Byzantium is included).

GenjiKhan said:

Right,but if the Founder of the religion has the power to choose the 2nd Follower belief bonus and an enhancer belief,he'll have a bigger advantage compared to the non-founders,specially if the followers of that religion did choose to get a different victory from the founder . Consider this scenario:

You plan a domination victory and decided to use faith to rush units,so you can raise a army and go to war,but you haven't been lucky enough to found a religion . You then choose one of the religions that are avaliable to you,which bonus seem good enough for you . Unfortinately,the founder of your religion didn't choose "Holy Warriors" as a second follower belief(which allows rushing units with Faith),but instead picked up "Swords into Plowshares" as a second belief,whose bonus are only avaliable when you're not in war . With this,you can't use Faith to buy units,neither go war if you don't want to lose the follower belief bonus . Some turns later,someone chose Holy Warriors,but their religion is too far away . In a few turns,someone else picked up this belief . Later,this civilization dominated an entire continent with the help of this belief and became the runaway civ . Then,you realize you lost the game because you didn't have the power to customize your religion .
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There are plenty of scenarios like this that would create an irrational race to found a religion,because the power of the founder would be far superior to the power of the followers . Let's not forget that this is the main reason why religion in Civ4 was so dissapointed .

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Then I dont' think you're playing the game right, I've seen strategic games of any kind as a "adjust to your surroundings". If you planned to become the master from Day 1 by using Faith then I would see that as a gigantically bad move, why on earth would you decide? "Okay, I'll win by buying Holy Warriors" but you made that decision on Turn 0 without even knowing who you're rivals are, that's really a bad move.. Besides, those who do not found religions have a big advantage to them, a lot.. a lot of excess faith. If you didn't found religion, then you didn't have Prophets stealing all that Faith from you (Prophets steal ALL of faith, even if you excess in it (134 required to spawn/start spawning Prophets, but PAX showed he had 350, he lost ALL of it).

Uh... hard to believe that a civ can suddenly be "runaway" with 1 or 2 beliefs.

Glassmage said:

Uh... hard to believe that a civ can suddenly be "runaway" with 1 or 2 beliefs.

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Seeing as we don't know what all of the beliefs actually are, and that there are going to be a lot of them, I think it likely that at some point, in some game, the fact that one player has a certain belief or set of beliefs will give him/her/it a tremendous advantage. The frequency of this happening will depend on the exact nature of the faith system, each belief, and whether or not the AI can properly maximize (or at least make marginal use of) its choice of beliefs.
Think of the effect a certain policy can have on your civ. Beliefs look like they'll function in a similar manner, so game-changing beliefs are definitely a possibility.

With all the inevitable speculation and discussions about the 'beliefs' system fueled by the Byzantine UA, I disagree with some of the opinions in this thread about the belief system and about what the UA must be.

First of all, the belief system:
I would be very surprised if followers could enhance a religion they have not founded. The enhancing of a religion, IMO, will only be possible by the founder.
They are the owner of the religion and decide how it is made up for everyone.

Secondly, the Byzantine UA:
why do people assume they MUST be able to found a religion in order to use their bonus belief?
I think their UNIQUE ability will allow them to add a bonus belief (from the pool of follower and enhancer beliefs) to any religion they want (as long as they follow that religion), regardless of whether they founded the religion or whether it spread into their empire from outside. This bonus belief will only apply to them of course, not other followers of the same religion.
This gives them an extra benefit for having religion within their empire and doesn't require giving them the historically inaccurate ability to found their own religion faster.
I do agree with somebody elses idea of giving them a free great prophet after researching theology. Or perhaps a faith boost at theology.
And one more thing, a UA like this, even without a great prophet or faith boost, IMO, is actually quite strong and not very situational.

Hadnt finished reading the whole thread so apologies if someone had already advanced similar opinions to myself!

I don't know if it's historically inaccurate to say that Byzantium didn't found a religion. At the very least, a religion was founded within the territory of what became the Byzantine Empire under the rule of a government that became the Byzantine Empire. I'd say that's close enough to hedge it.

The only reason it would make more sense to require them to have a religion in order to get the ability is that's just how religions seem to work. First off, what kind of ability? Is it from the list or something else? If it's from the list, all those seem to go with a religion (so you need to have one). If it's a brand new list, the ability is essentially "choose a power" if it isn't tied with a religion.

They could have and enhance a religion they didn't found is what I'm saying. From the list of enhancer beliefs (and possibly follower beliefs as well).

Consider the following example:
Celts found Taoism with founder belief x, follower belief y. Later on they may or may not enhance it, whatever.
Taoism spreads to Byzantine empire, who adopt it after it becomes the majority religion in their empire.
The Byzantines, through their UA, then proceed to navigate to the religion menu (of which we have seen screenshots) and select to enhance taoism further with their very own special bonus belief z (from the list of enhancers or whatever).
In this example, only the Byzantines get that extra belief from taoism. Other followers of Taoism don't get that belief advantage, nor even the celts who founded it.

This, to me, accurately portrays real life events in which the byzantine empire had the orthodox offshoot of christianity, which developed into a distinct flavor of religion for their own state, but is still technically a sect of Christianity rather than an originally 'founded' religion. This orthodox Christianity developed into a similar bur different religion in that area of the world.
Hence my comments about historical accuracy.
Am typing this off the top of my head, and going by what I've learned, so happy for anyone to correct me of needed.

Louis XXIV said:

The only reason it would make more sense to require them to have a religion in order to get the ability is that's just how religions seem to work. First off, what kind of ability? Is it from the list or something else? If it's from the list, all those seem to go with a religion (so you need to have one). If it's a brand new list, the ability is essentially "choose a power" if it isn't tied with a religion.

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One thing to note that in every screenshot and gameplay that showed the Religion menu,they only showed that menu if the chosen Civilization had founded a religion . They have never showed any screenshot/gameplay of the Religion menu,by the point of view of non-founders .

Now, I know I'm in the middle of 26ish hours of being awake. ...But I know there was a screen-cap of Theodora's leader screen on this board not 2 hours ago. And I know I commented on it, as did quite a few others. Did it get modded off the face of the planet, or am I looking in completely the wrong place? ...I would have sworn it was in this thread.


~R~

Perhaps those screens weren't suppose to go public or something like that. Perhaps someone was just teasing us, who knows.

what are you people talking about? o.O

it is probably just because the picture was unsourced and as such they are just checking to see if it was allowed to be posted or it might have something to do with the comments that followed

Yep. I have sources that are telling me that this conversation should end for the sake of all of our user accounts.

So. How about them Byzantines? Religion n stuff. Bonus belief. Ummm...kittens?

Edit: Damn. Thunder stolen by Mod-Ninja. Whatev. I stand by my kittens comment.

~R~