[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

raystuttgart said:

There are conflicts / wars between Natives already.

Click to expand...

There are no conflicts at the beginning of the game and throughout the game there won't be a conflict unless some defensive pact with some European is applied. This means that the Indians will never quarrel among themselves without any European involved. My feeling is that something is missing here...
And if the concern is that Indian would become too weak, they could be made stronger from the outset.

oyh said:

There are no conflicts at the beginning of the game ...

Click to expand...

True.
But there are different attitudes.
Some Natives are more aggressive towards other Natives and some are less.

oyh said:

This means that the Indians will never quarrel among themselves without any European involved.

Click to expand...

It is at least very very unlikely.
(Because Natives don't expand by creating new villages without old villages being given up.)

But generally it is possible to "convince" Natives to attack other Natives through Diplomacy.

---------------

Summary:

I understand what you want:
Natives having more wars against other Natives by themselves.

But it is extremely unlikely that something like this will ever be implemented in Religion and Revolution.

1. Extremely difficult to implement without totally destroying balancing.
Features should work on every map / mapsize, every handicap and most gamestyles.

2. Natives are not only enemies, they are valuable partners ! (Mercenaries, Trade, Training, ...)
I don't want them to slaughter themselves.
Realism does not always lead to more game fun ...

3. Why should Natives simply start fighting each other ?
They don't expand their territory and probably never will (at least not in this mod).
Natives in CivCol are no "full Civ".
They are more or less "victims" or "partners" for Europeans and that is it ...

What you are suggestion here is extremely problematic to my opinion.

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Religion and Revolution is not simply about creating massive amounts of features.

If we create a feature it should generally be

1. stable
2. balanced
3. fun
4. atmospheric / historically correct (or at least imaginable)

I cannot imagine a concept / implementation of "Natives leading War against each other" that fulfills all of these criterias.

Given your view on the role of natives and the expected efforts for balancing any change regarding natives, I fully understand why both ideas about natives (mutual conflict and diseases) are unlikely to be considered further.

I hope I haven't distracted you from continuing your excellent work.

oyh said:

Given your view on the role of natives and the expected efforts for balancing any change regarding natives, I fully understand why both ideas about natives (mutual conflict and diseases) are unlikely to be considered further.

Click to expand...

The ideas themselves

• Natives starting wars against each other without logical reason
• Natives being killed by spreading diseases

are not very interesting to me.

I personally simply cannot see any fun in this.
If I then think about the consequences for balancing ...
Efforts for pure implementation are not my problem here.

Realism without a good concept that ensures balancing and fun will not convince me.

But maybe some other team member really likes these ideas and will bring up some good arguments and a good concept,
that can convince me.

oyh said:

I hope I haven't distracted you from continuing your excellent work.

Click to expand...

Not at all.
Brainstorming and discussing ideas is important for a project like ours.

Hi guys,

I have been creating concepts again, read through ideas of other modders and tried to pick up some ideas and wishes.

1. Monasteries
(see graphics)

When you send a Missionary to a Native Village he can create a Mission like usually.
Once a Mission is created it is possible to send a pioneer to that village to build a Monastery.

Monasteries will give the following effects:

1. Doubles amount of Converted Natives.
(Thus positive effect on attitude doubled, too.)

2. Instad of Natives giving up their village because of cultural pressure, a village with a Monastery will be transformed into a city of that European,
populated with the same amount of Converted Natives as its population was before.

3. A Native Village with a Monastery is very hard to be missioned by another Nation.
But if successfull, the Monastery (of ther former missioning player) is destroyed.

4. Military Units will heal in Native Villages with Monasteries just the same as in cities.

2. Trails, Roads and Plastered Roads
(Actually something like this was already implemented by Androrc and I would like to adapt it.)

There will siply be 3 Levels of Roads, which Pioneers can build successively.

Trails: very cheap and slower movement than on roads
Roads: like now
Plastered Roads: expensive and faster movement than roads

The RoadType on central CityPlot will be set when you build the different levels of SPECIALBUILDING_BELLS.

3. Splitting up Swamp into Swamp and Marsh

I really don't like that there is Sugar available in Swamps high north.

As a reminder:
We already have Savanna (South) and Grasland (North).

Thus I would spilt up

South: Swamp (giving a little Sugar)
North: Marsh (giving a little Tobacco)

4. Closed Ports
(Something like this was actually already implemented, but I would rather do an implementation of my own.)

When you anger your king, he might choose to close one of your ports for a certain period of time.
(Basically this would be an alternative to putting a boykott on one of the goods.)

"Closed Port" means, that you will not be able to load or unload goods or units with ships.
(You will still be able to use wagon trains.)

You will get a message telling how long the king close the port.
You will also get a message, when the port is open again.

-------------

Feedback ?

@team:

I have updated our Game Concepts, merged further improvements (graphics and texts) from TAC and also did some other small improvements (graphics and texts) of my own.

Please get current revision.

@Team:

I have finished adaption / implementation of Domestic Markets.
(It is uploaded to SVN.)

Basically I have used Androrc's great ModComp.

However, I have done several small changes and improvements.

1. Messaging has been heavily lightened to prevent too many annoying messages.
(Only 1 message each turn for each city, simply telling profit from Domestic Market of that city if there were domestic sales.)

2. Pricing strategy a little adjusted.
(e.g. Luxury Goods from Europe for example will always be a little more expensive than in Europe.)

3. Included Domestic Market help information on Mouse-Over at Yield in City.

4. Yields Demanded in Colopedia now displayed as List.

5. Tavern needed to sell alcohol (Beer, Rum and Wine).

6. Market needed to sell all other goods (Leather, Cloth, Coffee ...).

7. Demanded Yields are adjusted and balanced to social classes.
(... and only certain produced goods are demanded.)

8. Yield Consumption from buildings totally removed since there was no usecase for this.
(... and it improves performance a little.)

9. A little bit of Performance Optimization.

Summary:

I believe, the feature is a very nice addition.
It does absolutely not destroy balancing and selling to Europe is still much more important.
Also I do not believe, that we will need an extra Screen to control Domestic Market.

@Androrc:
Once again, you did an fantastic job with your ModComp.

raystuttgart said:

@Team:

I have finished adaption / implementation of Domestic Markets.
(It is uploaded to SVN.)

Basically I have used Androrc's great ModComp.

However, I have done several small changes and improvements.

1. Messaging has been heavily lightened to prevent too many annoying messages.
(Only 1 message each turn for each city, simply telling profit from Domestic Market of that city if there were domestic sales.)

2. Pricing strategy a little adjusted.
(e.g. Luxury Goods from Europe for example will always be a little more expensive than in Europe.)

3. Included Domestic Market help information on Mouse-Over at Yield in City.

4. Yields Demanded in Colopedia now displayed as List.

5. Tavern needed to sell alcohol (Beer, Rum and Wine).

6. Market needed to sell all other goods (Leather, Cloth, Coffee ...).

7. Demanded Yields are adjusted and balanced to social classes.
(... and only certain produced goods are demanded.)

8. Yield Consumption from buildings totally removed since there was no usecase for this.
(... and it improves performance a little.)

9. A little bit of Performance Optimization.

Summary:

I believe, the feature is a very nice addition.
It does absolutely not destroy balancing and selling to Europe is still much more important.
Also I do not believe, that we will need an extra Screen to control Domestic Market.

@Androrc:
Once again, you did an fantastic job with your ModComp.

Click to expand...

Thanks!

You've done some amazing changes

Androrc the Orc said:

You've done some amazing changes

Click to expand...

Thanks.

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@team:
No feedback to these ideas ?

@team:

I have implemented a small DLL-Diplo-Event for Bishops.
(As it was requested here by Schmiddie.)

It is uploaded to SVN.

Bishops are superspecailists for crosses but pretty rare.

This works pretty similar to the other DLL-Diplo-Events.

Like always there are certain pre-conditions checked for the DLL-Diplo-Event.

• minimum game turn
• number of cities larger than number of Bishops already acquired
• timer that ensures, that this event will not appear to often
• not in revolution
  ...

Attitude of the King does influence random base of price.
AI will also acquire Bishops through this event if it has enough money.

Well Ray, what your team and you in particular have done in this mod is nothing short of astonishing.
I really like the Multiple yields (making colored cloth from indigo and cloth), Domestic markets, slavery.

Unfortunately I don't have the skills that you posted that you needed in the team, but I really like seeing your project grow and grow.

Pallando said:

Well Ray, what your team and you in particular have done in this mod is nothing short of astonishing.

Click to expand...

Thanks.
We always like to hear that community appreciates all the work we put into this project.

Pallando said:

Unfortunately I don't have the skills that you posted that you needed in the team, ...

Click to expand...

Skills can be acquired.
Experienced modders don't fall out of heaven.
All you need is a goal, a lot of motivation and some time.

Pallando said:

... but I really like seeing your project grow and grow.

Click to expand...

Yes, the mod grows every week.
(We are not simply talking, when we say that this already is the largest CivCol-Mod ever created.)

But we are also continuously improving and finetuning, which simply is not discussed that much here in the forum.
We have set ourselves very high goals for quality and game fun.

raystuttgart said:

@team:
No feedback to these ideas ?

Click to expand...

Oh yes! I've started working on the Custom House Popup. I've generated a basic "copy" of import/export copy. I'll send a screenshot!

raystuttgart said:

Hi guys,

I have been creating concepts again, read through ideas of other modders and tried to pick up some ideas and wishes.

1. Monasteries
(see graphics)

When you send a Missionary to a Native Village he can create a Mission like usually.
Once a Mission is created it is possible to send a pioneer to that village to build a Monastery.

Monasteries will give the following effects:

1. Doubles amount of Converted Natives.
(Thus positive effect on attitude doubled, too.)

2. Instad of Natives giving up their village because of cultural pressure, a village with a Monastery will be transformed into a city of that European,
populated with the same amount of Converted Natives as its population was before.

3. A Native Village with a Monastery is very hard to be missioned by another Nation.
But if successfull, the Monastery (of ther former missioning player) is destroyed.

4. Military Units will heal in Native Villages with Monasteries just the same as in cities.

Click to expand...

I really like this idea!

raystuttgart said:

2. Trails, Roads and Plastered Roads
(Actually something like this was already implemented by Androrc and I would like to adapt it.)

There will siply be 3 Levels of Roads, which Pioneers can build successively.

Trails: very cheap and slower movement than on roads
Roads: like now
Plastered Roads: expensive and faster movement than roads

The RoadType on central CityPlot will be set when you build the different levels of SPECIALBUILDING_BELLS.

Click to expand...

I really like this idea, but we will have to be careful in our balancing. What would you suggest:
Trails 1/2 movement (2 plots) [Isn't that like now?]
Roads 1/3 movement (3 plots)
Plastered Roads: 1/4 movement (4 plots) ??

raystuttgart said:

3. Splitting up Swamp into Swamp and Marsh

I really don't like that there is Sugar available in Swamps high north.

As a reminder:
We already have Savanna (South) and Grasland (North).

Thus I would spilt up

South: Swamp (giving a little Sugar)
North: Marsh (giving a little Tobacco)

Click to expand...

Good idea!

raystuttgart said:

4. Closed Ports
(Something like this was actually already implemented, but I would rather do an implementation of my own.)

When you anger your king, he might choose to close one of your ports for a certain period of time.
(Basically this would be an alternative to putting a boykott on one of the goods.)

"Closed Port" means, that you will not be able to load or unload goods or units with ships.
(You will still be able to use wagon trains.)

You will get a message telling how long the king close the port.
You will also get a message, when the port is open again.

Click to expand...

Let me think about it. I don't know ... Fort now I don't see the point... Would this be random?

Robert Surcouf said:

I've started working on the Custom House Popup. I've generated a basic "copy" of import/export copy. I'll send a screenshot!

Click to expand...

Great.

Robert Surcouf said:

I don't see the point...

Click to expand...

It is simply to give them king a little bit more possibilities to punish the player if he doesn't obey.

Robert Surcouf said:

Would this be random?

Click to expand...

No, it would not be random.

It could be

A) An alternative consequence to boykott of a good for refusing tax increase.
or
B) A reaction, when the kings attitude towards you gets too bad.

Have you ever considered having something happen where the king deploy's it's second colonist? It would appear with some advanced units/ships toward the mid-end game and could be either a ditch effort to subjugate the colonies by installing a more friendly governor.

Another option is a rebellion within the colony. This could also come by means of the king DEMANDING you to surrender city X to this other colonist. Just sounds like a small idea that could add some intrigue.

thadian said:

Have you ever considered having something happen where the king deploy's it's second colonist?

Click to expand...

Yes, I have created concepts (and technical concepts) for something like that.

A) A concept I called "Little Brother Mode" as a game option.

Both colonial players would be in game from the start.
They would be permanently allied.
If your "little brother" gets eliminated, the king would oppose serious punishment.
When starting Revolution, the "little brother" would ally with the King against you if his Rebel Factor is too low
or declare independenc and ally with you against the King if it is high enough.

B) If a European AI player gets eliminated (which is possible in TAC and Religion and Revolution) that AI would get a second chance with the other colonial player.

The second colonial player would start with much more units, than the first time.

--------------------

Feedback was pretty negative, meaning almost nobody was interested.
Efforts/complexity for implementation are relatively high.
And to be honest, I am not really interesting in implementing these features.

So I never presented these concepts for Religion and Revolution.
(Since I will probably never try to implement something like that myself.)

-------------------

thadian said:

Another option is a rebellion within the colony.

Click to expand...

We will implement a concept for "Loyalty to the King" in a later release.

About our discussion of these new concepts:

1. I will put Monasteries and Splitting up Swamp into Swamp and Marsh on our List.

2. I will implement Plastered Roads this week since it is really easy to do.
(I thought about it and I think, that 2 RoadTypes is enough. )

So we will have:
Roads -> 1/2 movement (like now)
Plastered Roads -> 1/3 movement and relatively expensive

The basic RoadType of (the Cetnral Plot of) a European City will be Roads.
Once you build Village Hall, it will become Plastered Roads.

3. I will put Closed Ports into the Archive.

--------

Ok ?

@team:

I have added Plastered Roads to our mod.
(It is uploaded to SVN.)

It is a tiny feature, but I really like it.
(I also hope you like the buttons for BuildAction and Worlbuilder I created.)

Plastered Roads give 50% faster movement than normal roads.
(So basically a normal Settler can get from one city to another, that has 2 plots in between, within 1 turn.)

You can build either Roads or Plastered Roads right away or you can later on replace Roads with Plastere Roads.
Plastered Roads are much more expensive though.

Once a city will build Townhall its central plot will also get Plastered Roads.
(Default RoadType is still the normal Road.)

It looks nice!
I've finished the graphical part of the custom house popup sreen. I still need to do the logical part...
But here's a few screenshots of the popup screen.

Is this ok?
I'll have to merge these changes...

Robert Surcouf said:

Is this ok?

Click to expand...

Nice.

Remark:
You can exclude Food, because it is never sold by Custom House.

And of course the text in the heading does not fit yet, but I guess you know.

Edit:

A) It would be great, if the Button for Custom House would only be displayed, if

1. New Capacity is activated (otherwise the Screen is not needed)
2. There really exists a Custome House in the city

B) These values can be used as init values for the array used by the get and set methods of the Screen in a new city:
(Similar like they are used currently in the Custom House selling logic.)

CUSTOMHOUSE_STRATEGIC_PRODUCED_SELL_THRESHOLD
CUSTOMHOUSE_STRATEGIC_RAW_SELL_THRESHOLD
CUSTOMHOUSE_RAW_SELL_THRESHOLD
CUSTOMHOUSE_PRODUCED_SELL_THRESHOLD

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@Robert:

Maybe it is the easiest if we do worksharing ?

You program:

1. Screen (using the following 2. and 3.)
2. array that stores the values from Screen
3. get() and set() methods

I could program then:

1. Initialization of values for array.
2. Usage of values from array in Custom House sell logic

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What do you think ?

I am just asking, because I did programm the current Custom House logic in the first place and will simply be much faster doing that part.
(If you want to program all of it , that is ok too, of course. )