The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game # 1 - The Zulus

Grendeldef said:

Also, no question that the Impi is OP but I'd also say that a T10 worker is seriously OP for a player and 4 free workers around T30 is basically an I WIN button hence it might make some sense to limit in some way the stealing of workers in some future challenges.

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Agreed. Stealing workers from AI is exploit in my opinion. It has even bigger influence than science overflow bug when going for early dom. It basically has zero consequences.
It's sad that stealing workers from AI is default strategy and people dont consider it as a exploit.

That's because it's not an exploit.

I consider it abusive for sure and could understand limitations but it clearly uses the game mechanics without any weird exploitation of a bug. It just abuses the bad AI behavior and the stupid warmonger system of BNW.
Science overflow is however a clear exploit since it uses a weird bug in the game that create an unforeseeable effect to get an advantage.
Stealing worker just uses the bad AI to get an advantage or the dumb game features that allow you to do it. And yes it's OP.

I'll be happy to play a game without using it but let's call a spade a spade. Not sure if that's the purpose of the series or really enforceable though. I'm also only arguing semantics here, not the validity of the thing.

I don't consider it as an exploit either hence I use it (or vice versa) but as a very unbalanced concept. It's just extremely useful without any real draw backs.

Yeah basically. Always wondered why it was left as such a big oversight by Firaxis... bah I guess it's one of many afterall.

I am willing to play "no worker stealing game", but this should be clearly defined. For example, we can say "no DoW to other civs before t40", or "no DoW to CS", etc.

Yeah, sure - all rules etc in advance. I was just reading Tabarnak's post & thinking my own game and the massive impact few stolen workers have early in the game hence the suggestion that we might try some challenge without it.
I just feel that there's something wrong when a 180 turn game can be done, with ease, without building or buying workers without any negative effects. Surely I could've used few more building roads but in no way was I lacking workers at any point.

nah... then you might as well make it such that we are to return every civilian unit we find caught by barbs as well (even though you used your units to block to make sure the barbs get the capture) it's not that abusive and certainly carries risk of your unit dying if you are not careful, so it takes skill, and the impact in the long term is hardly the difference between victory and defeat (at most you're looking at 2-3 free workers in normal games, and if you start stealing 5-6 units that early then you start losing gold and hit the supply cap anyway... btw my record was around 8 workers, 2 settlers and 2 caravans before I hit the supply cap and decide to pity the AI) and if you steal a CS unit it does carry its own penalty of not being able to get anything from them for 60 turns or so anyway so I think it balances out.

I think it's a good thing that fighting the AI is a good strategy. It's good that interacting with the other players is productive, and it's good that you have a reason to benefit from war. People complain that BNW has "nerfed warmongering" and created a "Sim-Civ" style game, but this is one area where the game design actually encourages you to battle the AI. And people complain about it!

I don't think stealing Workers from other Civs is at all an exploit. If you ask me, what it really represents is good game design.

The problem is actually that there isn't a lot of battling to do to get these workers. And the AI is all friendly afterwards, that's what people criticize.

Finally finished at 148

Not without having problems. The London attack was pretty easy Liz forgot to build UUs and fought with melee units instead. First problem come from Paris(as expected). Eventually lost that city when Napoleon DoWed me.







Bab was my next victim he also DoWed me before i wanted and had to defend a bit from satellite cities. Babylon felty down easily. He was the weakest from all civs. Next step was the recovery of Paris.





I pursued for Akkad after selling some cities to Dido after making peace with her to get rid from unhappiness. Units are ready to rekick Nappy's butt.



After that it was now the time to regroup and unleash maximum power toward last civs in the name of Washington and Dido. Got 5 great generals at that point(a 6th one joined some turns after).





I really didn't need a single citadel so far. Guess that it's time to make some. 4 citadels were built! First i have built a last city(Nomamba) and bought 2 tiles. Then unleashed units again.



Good things:

-Several beefed Xbows helped to take down cities rapidly.
-Impis are still op against Minutemen
-Washinton built several happiness wonders like ND and CI

Bad things:

-Lost several turns retaking Paris...
-Pocatello had put a damn city through my route back to home after taking Babylon(had to take Akkad)
-Didn't use citadels more aggressively mid game to counter sneak attacks more easily. Citadel+Impi+Xbow would have done a good job job against Paris but also to accelerate warpath in general

Goodie that Tabarnal finished his game so we more interesting & important things at hand as I didn't want to hijack the thread. Few things though.

kb27787 said:

nah... then you might as well make it such that we are to return every civilian unit we find caught by barbs as well (even though you used your units to block to make sure the barbs get the capture)

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This may or may not be a reference to me but in case it is - I used two workers to block key tiles from Washy to prevent him capturing Orleans. I'm not immediately seeing the link between how those were acquired and they're used.

kb27787 said:

it's not that abusive and certainly carries risk of your unit dying if you are not careful, so it takes skill, and the impact in the long term is hardly the difference between victory and defeat (at most you're looking at 2-3 free workers in normal games, and if you start stealing 5-6 units that early then you start losing gold and hit the supply cap anyway... btw my record was around 8 workers, 2 settlers and 2 caravans before I hit the supply cap and decide to pity the AI) and if you steal a CS unit it does carry its own penalty of not being able to get anything from them for 60 turns or so anyway so I think it balances out.

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Sure there're some risks and possible negative effects but I'm still saying that those are nowhere near balanced between the potential of stealing workers.
I also see it as valid practice for gaining advance but the point was that from a pov of these challenges it might be interesting to have a or some challenges were this practice is excluded. It surely changes the play of first 50 turns quite a bit.

Even more off topic. For the future challenges there're about to arise some ideas and suggestions which should be presented...where? Should the original suggestion/set up thread be necroed, use the ongoing DLC challenge thread or perhaps open the next challenge thread well in advance for a pre-challenge ideas/discussion?

Grendeldef said:

Even more off topic. For the future challenges there're about to arise some ideas and suggestions which should be presented...where? Should the original suggestion/set up thread be necroed, use the ongoing DLC challenge thread or perhaps open the next challenge thread well in advance for a pre-challenge ideas/discussion?

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To avoid cluttering the forums I say to post any ideas/suggestions in here. This particular challenge seems to be at the end of its life cycle, so off topic posts are fine by me. Also, since you seem to have a specific idea of what makes a game entertaining/challenging, especially on non- Pangaea maps, I was hoping you could either send a save to my email or possibly tell me what you look for. If you do submit a game you must remember that all map packs need to be disabled.

found the time to finish my game T252 domination win (honor autocracy artillery + frigate spam with cav and range 5 lancers for meatshields)

next to episodes of the LP should be available (fully processed) in ~6h and the last episode hopefully in the next 24 hours

Currently playing this one after my vacation and I'm on turn 110ish. 3caps down, 4 more to go.
Turns are very tiring and slow though, there are only 4 AI left and 3 of those are in war with me and with each other, this make some very intricate warfare. Biggest problem is Nappy is being way stronger than everybody else since he absorbed Pocatello (on one turn he built 3 wonders lol). I think I'll take him down with my best XBows starting with moson kahni and then Paris. Washington as a TON of units despite being at war with everyone... I'm a little sad that my earlier bribes haven't been very fruitful.

Maybe winnable around T140ish depends on how hard it is to plow through Dido.

I sadly didn't take screenshots. I will see if I can load some autosaves for a screenshot every 20turns or so. Hope my gf playing didnt erase those.

Plan was rather similar to what glory7 describes in his guide though (read it before playing). Liberty opener, make quick archers, farm XP, make caravans to tech machinery, pray the AI sends some (can be helped by making them DoW their neighbours). As soon as 6-7 CB go to war and never stop.
Compared to glory7 and his guide:
-made Ikanda only in capital at first, I wanted faster archers for faster first kill with CB tech.
-went only 3 cities, unless you swim in happiness I fail to see how a 4th could be good. Especially with liberty where the happiness comes late.

I still wonder if it's really better than the tradition/honor mix I used for the theodora HoF a month ago however (which is what Tabarnak seems to have tried here). Maybe I'll replay the map later trying this other approach.

T138 Domi.
God my computer crashed while typing my write up... Sigh.

So... I was able to take screenshots by loading autosaves so here is my write up

1. T21


I got a quick culture ruin. I still decided to go liberty since I wanted to try it out to compare with what I tried on the theodora HoF a month ago. I also had read glory7 guide on this forum so I wanted to try it.

I met Washington and Dido and stole a worker from both. Since Washington is usually friendly I made a quick peace in hope to get a DoF and maybe a caravan. I was kind of lucky that Dido's city expanded on an isolated spot. Warrior waits there for a second worker and since Valetta has isolated horses there is good worker potential there also. I end up indeed taking a second worker from Dido and then a few turns later 1 from Valetta. I stay at war for XP farm and other workers.

Capital was: Scout monument scout granary shrine archer x2 settler caravan ikanda archer x2 spearman
Techs: AH, Pottery, Mining, Archery, Calendar, BronzeWorking

2. T41


As suggested by glory7 on his CS thread I use the CS to farm XP with my initial archers. There are no close barb quests anyway. I also grab 2 workers from this CS over the course of the game (one before this screen shot and one later while resting for a couple turns).

I notice that Napoleon has the dreaded "want your land" diplomacy value. Also he didn't send caravan to me. After a quick check on how much he wants to DoW someone (not a lot) I'm fairly sure he wants to attack me so I bribe him to go to Pocatello since I'm not ready to face him. France being an agressive Civ I'm fairly convinced this was a good preemptive move.

I settle 3 cities. I always feel that liberty and even more so domination requires your cities to have unique luxuries. So that means there is only 3 spots for me, gems north, marble south and wine east. Since the marble is already taken by France I go North and East. North first to try to grab the gems fast. I'm a little sad Siam expanded on one of the wheat. It's also a good location for the extra salt. Salt being OP and I have the earth mother pantheon.

Caravan are very important for these low science strategies so make the early 2 fast.
Pyramids were gone around turn 40 sadly.

3. T61


I have the 6-7 CB I want so I bring them to Siam. He hates me since he protects Valetta, also he's the only one close that didn't send any caravan. My archers at the CS will soon upgrade and join up to hit on Siam.

4. T82


20 turns later Siam is wiped off the face of the Earth. I have many 3 promo archers and 1 logistic. England is next, she only has 2 cities, hates my guts and I want to hit before longbows. She has the great wall so I'll have to use at least one GG for that I think.

The good thing is that he expanded his religion to a couple of my cities, with Pagoda and Mosque. And later on it will be England religion that spreads through my land with cathedrals. I grabbed a lot of these faith building throughout the game and once that was done I just enhanced and spread with prophets taking happiness beliefs.

5. T88


After only a few turns she wants to settle for peace and gives me York. Thank you madame for the great wall ! I'll kill her later. Machinery is in 2 turns at T90 and I upgrade all my CB (9 I believe). I'll go for Babylon quickly he looks weak and then come back for London.

Pocatello is dead, completely absorbed by France. I hope he doesn't become too hard to kill.

6. T97


Babylon is ready to fall. I then just go back to London

Meanwhile I start to make a road through the Jungle toward Moson Kahni. My plan is to hit Moson Kani first and then Paris from the west since it's all flat and clear from that direction. With logistics range it should be easy.

I notice that Washington amasses some troop on the east so I bribe Napoleon to Dow him

7. T106


London is ready to fall with little resistance, my veteran troops will then take care of France using the quick road I just made there to Agadaika.

On the east however this is a turning point in the game. I bribe Dido to Dow washington, and then Dow him myself, hoping to reduce his troops and creating an opening toward his cap for a quick grab. I also hope that if the war lasts long I'll get a few new logistics crossbows. In retrospective maybe these units could have used more CS farming while waiting on the eastern border. Certainly would have speed things up since as you will quickly notice this war was really slow.

Coup de theatre, the turn after Dido Dow me. I'm also planning to attack France soon. The world will be in a total messy free for all.


8. T124


Moson Kahni falls easy and I rush towards Paris with my range+logistics troops. Will be an easy picking.



Meanwhile after 18 turns I'm unable to conquer Washington, while everyone is hitting on everybody I am the one the AI tries to attack. It makes the eastern front stall since Washington is also able to field a ton of troops. However as France is hit hard in the west they pull back. And Dido is just sending garbage units at me that I can fend off with only a impi and a XB.

Funny enough I was able to build Notre Dame myself around this time. Been ages I havent got that one. But with only 3 AI left and all being in wars it may not be that surprising.

T126


Paris falls easily on turn 126. I must take Tours however, it's blocking the way home sadly. After hitting it a few times I get it in a peace deal and raze it. My troops are ready for the final conquests.

Washington is still alive but I'm finally getting an opening there. I decide to go in and sacrifice a few impi and low rank crossbows to seize the capital. I'll lose a few but I get my prize and to finish Dido I only need my veterans anyway

T130


Washington falls after a very long war. Been a while I hadn't made forts. Since Dido is entrenched I only bring my best troops with range and logistics. I also decide to get Optics just in case.


Meanwhile Dido is making Borobodur

End



The final cities fall, Utique turn 134 and Carthage turn 138. Shaka now rules the world in a Dark age of unpronounceable cities.

Damn...Nice job Acken. Some of you guys are freaking crazy at domination. I think I need to trust composites more as I tend to wait for xbows before really going to war. Awesome game.

Nice job Acken. Too bad i couldn't do XP farm Paris attacked me as soon as turn 40 but they served well in exchange

Of course the lost of Paris cost me about 10 turns or i would have done exactly the same time than you or glory7

Triple equality would have been awesome

Resume of the 3 grand strategies:

Glory7's strategy:

-Full Liberty
-4 cities
-XP farm
-Wait for Xbows and Impis(fast beelines) before attacking

Tabarnak's strategy:

-Half Tradition-Half honor
-2 cities
-XP farm?(been attacked this time but we can say that gave approx same results)
-Attack with CBs(fast beeline), tech to Impis(fast beeline) then Xbows(mid beeline)

Acken's strategy:

-Full Liberty
-3 cities
-XP farm
-Attack with CBs(mid beeline) then Xbows(fast beeline) then Impis(low beeline)

I've gotta ask because this is something that's been driving me nuts. But are imgur pictures messing up the forum formatting for everyone or is it just me? Here is an example from Acken's previous post.


I re-uploaded Ackens pics into my own imgur account to a 19in screen size(I think) and they fit my screen perfectly. Let me know if it makes a difference to anyone else. If not, please tell me how to get them to automatically adjust to my screen.

Tabarnak said:

Tabarnak's strategy:

-Half Tradition-Half honor
-2 cities
-XP farm?(been attacked this time but we can say that gave approx same results)
-Attack with CBs(fast beeline), tech to Impis(fast beeline) then Xbows(mid beeline)

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Which halves do you pick and whats the order you'r picking? Is half tradition half honor a commonly used strategy? haven't heard of it before. Would like to read up a bit on it

Tabarnak said:

Nice job Acken. Too bad i couldn't do XP farm Paris attacked me as soon as turn 40 but they served well in exchange

Of course the lost of Paris cost me about 10 turns or i would have done exactly the same time than you or glory7

Triple equality would have been awesome

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I'm still left wondering what approach is probably best The one I used here, very close to what glory is suggesting. Or the one you developed during the HoF game. Playing the way I played that game I may have been better with trad/honor though because I feel I didn't really use Liberty to its full potential... It was still a bit new to me and I barely used the pillage/repair trick. My workers made roads mostly. I also get very tired of issuing worker orders in those domination games

I don't know how much of a difference it truly makes. I'd be interested to see how someone that really uses it do it live. I wasn't stuck on many cities, only Washington.

Dehli said:

Which halves do you pick and whats the order you'r picking? Is half tradition half honor a commonly used strategy? haven't heard of it before. Would like to read up a bit on it

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Monarchy in Tradition and Experience in honor (3/3). Monarchy first then XP, pick honor opener before monarchy if there are barbs. No its not common, it was used in the latest major hall of fame gauntlet though you can check it out on the appropriate forum.

It's self explanatory. You grab monarchy for the happiness (and gold) that you need for domination you also save turns with free monument. You then get fast experience and more great generals for easy conquest. Tabarnak goes 2 city but you can go 3 if there are good spots and good production in capital. Then you beeline Construction. Rush granary in first expo and make archers. Then rush someone around T55 with 7CB and keep conquering. Once you reach machinery upgrade to XB.

You make statue of Zeus if possible just after you've produced your archers. Then libraries for faster tech and then resume units. Try to fit caravan somewhere.

It basically rely on Zeus and faster Experience. Tradition is there only because honor lacks culture gold and happiness.
You could try a variant that takes Liberty instead of Honor though. But you need to have a good plan to get the happiness. (same stuff, 3/3 then finish liberty for the happiness). You get more production and a free settler but you miss on the happiness for a long time.