Spying...

So....! A few questions about spying.

If a try to steal a tech...
- the Civ I steal from warns me the next turn not to do it again (every single time, 100%), giving me a negative diplomatic modifier for the next 3000 years

If someone is trying to steal my techs..
- sometimes I did not even know who is stealing it ("unknown")
- if I recognize the Thief and ask him to stop spying on me, he gets angry giving me a negative diplomatic modifier (* all the time *, regardless of relationship) for the next 3000 years and does not stop stealing at all
- if I choose not to talk to the enemy thief to avoid the modifier, he just keeps stealing techs

There are some rare occassions where they come to me, apologize and tell me that they will never spy on me again (although I suspect they will steal again 2 turns later). But if they do not talk to me directly, every action I could do will result in a negative diplomatic modifier.

Am I correct?

Your thief is not always caught 100% if stealing a Tech. My 3 chevron spy was stealing techs continuously from Dido and was never caught. I kept good relations with her even though I was stealing. However, I did move my spy to catherine and she noticed after the first Tech was stolen.

It is `unknown` if your spy was low skilled and missed who it was (or if you had no spy). If the spy is good he`ll let you know who stole it.

I have no idea about the negative modifiers- don`t care. I just move my spy somewhere else until that Civ is friendly with me again.

Not sure about the mechanics behind the modifiers, however if you're powerful and they kinda like you they will apologize when pressed and stop stealing from you.

On a different note I've found that if they have the best possible spy defense your spy is doomed and will be caught and killed (even level 3). So be careful

Socratatus said:

Your thief is not always caught 100% if stealing a Tech. My 3 chevron spy was stealing techs continuously from Dido and was never caught. I kept good relations with her even though I was stealing. However, I did move my spy to catherine and she noticed after the first Tech was stolen.

It is `unknown` if your spy was low skilled and missed who it was (or if you had no spy). If the spy is good he`ll let you know who stole it.

I have no idea about the negative modifiers- don`t care. I just move my spy somewhere else until that Civ is friendly with me again.

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I usually end up in the lead or at least the top two when espionage becomes possible so I do everything possible to keep my tech safe. I'd like to know if there are different modifiers for your options when you catch a spy. If you forgive the civ do they not get a diplo hit? If you don't do they?

You can still get unknown spy has stolen a tech even if your own spy is a Secret Agent. It will be less often than if you had no spy.

The whole spy mechanics are imbalanced in favor of offense, not just tech stealing but also city state coup as well.

On mechanics, the spy makes process towards stealing a tech at a rate seen by that cities vulnerability. This is science per turn output by that city as modified by local presence of constable / police station and somewhere in the empire presence of NIA. (The Great Firewall makes the local city totally immune and also has a global impact.) A mouse over of your own cities will show all the raw numbers and percentages involved.

What's not shown on the screen is what percentage chance a spy running counter intelligence has at any level of killing an enemy spy. In fact, I'm not been able to find a line in the xml showing this.

You might as well choose the forgive option every time for spying, since it seems to be a huge positive modifier and if you ask them to stop they won't and will hate you anyway. Doesn't the length of time a tech take to steal depend on the science gap between two nations? With all a spying report coming in every 10 turns, it can seem like they're getting a huge free ride, but divided amongst all the civs in the game it's not worth ruining relations over.

b7fanatix said:

You might as well choose the forgive option every time for spying, since it seems to be a huge positive modifier and if you ask them to stop they won't and will hate you anyway. Doesn't the length of time a tech take to steal depend on the science gap between two nations? With all a spying report coming in every 10 turns, it can seem like they're getting a huge free ride, but divided amongst all the civs in the game it's not worth ruining relations over.

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First part: Sounds advice in G&K. But the positive modifier was toned down in BNW (or at least it maxes out as less than the negative modifier for different ideologies.) AI indeed won't stop even if they say they will, just like if you tell them not to spread their religion or settle near you.

Second part: Nope, science gap isn't part of the spy mechanics at all. (That is instead trade route mechanic) However, the tech cost of the tech being stolen is a factor and so if you have a cheap tech they don't it will get stolen much quicker than if the only techs they don't have are expensive. How many promotions their spy has appears to be a factor based on the XML as well.

Third part: This depends entirely upon what percentage of your empires science comes from your capital in a normal game. Those with a self founded wide empire won't have many stolen.
Those playing 4 self founded tall tradition with a Mountain adjacent to their capital are going to have a lot stolen, as would Babylon even without one (from all the academies)

Thanks for your help! I didn't know that it is possible to steal undetected, so far I always got caught. Maybe I'll send my spy out to civs who don't like me anyways first and then switch them to the tech lead when they reached level 3.

Yesterday, the diplomacy modifier lasted forever. I send my first Spy to France, stole Optics, promised to never do it again but kept the modifier until the end in ~1880 (first win on Emperor, yeah ). On the other hand Napoleon accused me of breaking my anti-spy promises so it might just have been a bug.

I always spy on cities that don`t like me in peacetime just to train my spies. I also constantly move them around once they steal a Tech, especially if the Civ is very powerful and notices.

When a really dangerously powerful Civ pops up I`ll spy on him even if he`s my best friend, but if he notices i`ll say `Sorry` and move the spy away for a little while... then move him back but to a different city! But it can be a dangerous game to play, especially if you ruin a friendship with a powerful Ally and the Civ declares war.

Sometimes I won`t spy on an Ally if losing him is too great a risk (like he`s in a defensive contract with me). I`ll make him a diplomat instead. I always play England so I sometimes have one to spare.

My only gripe with spies is if you forget him he`ll steal a Tech and you can`t tell him to leave it - This can be really annoying when you`re certain you`ll be noticed if you take it.

How many of you keep your spy in your capital to prevent Tech stealing?

brewgod said:

How many of you keep your spy in your capital to prevent Tech stealing?

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Always, but it still doesn't eliminate tech stealing entirely even after it becomes a secret agent.

brewgod said:

How many of you keep your spy in your capital to prevent Tech stealing?

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I will sometimes if I get too much Tech stealing. In my last game I never protected my cities at all since I was not one of the highest tech Civs and got no news of what I had being stolen. If you`re the top teching Civ you`ll want to have a spy watching in your city. It`s all a case of adapting and changing as necessary.

brewgod said:

How many of you keep your spy in your capital to prevent Tech stealing?

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I always do. And as Joncnunn said, even when my spy is leveled up, I still get techs stolen. They still get stolen with constabularies and police stations (though not as frequent).

My other spies I usually put in city states that I am allied with.