[BASE] Technologies discussion

Hi there!

I recently had some feedback on Orbis' techs, mostly saying that some (most) new techs aren't that useful. So, I looked at them and, indeed, some aren't really fleshed out. The glaring example is Optics which, apart from a mere +1 sight across water, actually does nothing but bridge two techs together, which is bad design.

This article is a good reading to get a good idea of how should a tech tree be designed.

Here are a few other notes I took about 'weak' techs: Feel free to suggest ideas and the like. We're not only discussing weak techs however; if you have some ideas about which tech should be added, removed, renamed, moved, etc., please tell!

Slap a Ritual, Hero, Wonder or free Great Person on every tech, call it good

You could also glance at the Dynamic Unique Units modcomp as an idea for other tech incentives.

I just personally really like to have some "big ticket" on each tech to reward people for being the first to acquire it, thus forcing them to try and focus on every path at once since they all have juicy goodness.

so you're basically baiting them into a suboptimal playstyle, since we all know that beelines are the way to go in ffh? ( that is, smart beelines, not like the AI sometime does )

talk about n00btrap

You know, you can make a tech give out any unitclass for free, not just great people. I personally like to make Sorcery give a free unitclass_mage, Strength of Will a free unitclass_archmage, and Animal Mastery a free unitclass_beastmaster, in addition to making more techs give out great people. Getting a free unit without needing to met the level rereq can be quite useful. I also like making Theology both provide a free Great Prophet and allow a spell that will let you upgrade Great Prophets straight to the High Priest of your state religion (or a High Priest of Winter if you are Illian, or a Luonnatar if Grigori) without a level requirement so long as that doesn't put you past the national limit.


It may be good to block the AI from researching worthless techs, for instance if that civ has NONE as a UU for the only unit it allows.

Many techs could probably be merged or eliminated.

Didn't the Printing Press in BtS gave +1 coin for Towns and Villages? That might improve it's value somewhat.

But Taxation already fills this role.

Most of the techs you mention are final ones, and I consider limited units powerfull enough.

Banking allows founding a guild, you know.

Also, I think that many techs in FfH are just overloaded with items. Check BtS, compared to it most of above techs are ok. Some Techs I have added are just to make other techs lighter.

I agree, some might use improvement (optics?). But some are fine. We should maybe make some cheaper/more expensive.

I am not sure I like most techs giving a free thing for a first one to get it.

Well, you surely remember that I'm not always good at balancing things, right?

Banking allows founding a guild, you know.

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Yeah. But if someone already founded it, why would I care researching it or trading it? At least, there's the Bank (iirc) building. But ask this question for some other techs, like Optics, and the answer might be: 'I wouldn't trade for it' or 'just to get to other techs' and then, this is not enough imho.

I am not sure I like most techs giving a free thing for a first one to get it.

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This is exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to do. Giving interesting benefits to research techs even if you aren't the first to do so.

Also, I think that many techs in FfH are just overloaded with items. Check BtS, compared to it most of above techs are ok. Some Techs I have added are just to make other techs lighter.

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First, I don't consider BTS or FFH as absolute references. They are really cool game/mod but they aren't safe from design errors (I'm not saying I am). One example is the Aesthetics tech in BTS, giving nothing but Wonders and a way to other techs.

But I know that, sometimes, some techs have to be this light and not really interesting to get. Can't be perfect everywhere!

Most of the techs you mention are final ones, and I consider limited units powerfull enough.

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I don't, because I'm not a warmonger and I don't care about having more powerful units

But, well, I think we can agree that Optics really needs something. I would say that Mercantilism ought to be tweaked too... I'm not a fan of its civic and if you don't get there first, it's just pointless.

Again, remember to read the article I linked in the first post. It's really useful to get an idea of what is interesting in a tech tree.

Animal Mastery (only one unit)
should perhaps boost Pastures/Yurts

- as said, could also give some small bonusses to animal resources
- or boost (by small amount), animal units/horses

Armored Cavalry (only one unit)

- could strengthen some cavalry units, have a hero, or perhaps some religious tied cavalry

Arquebuses (only one unit (and one hero))

-

Banking (just two buildings, one missable (wonder))

- (not that bad if you ask me)

Bowyers (only one unit)

- could increase archery unit's, increase archery range

Calendar (Agrarianism/Plantations, -> Festivals...)

-

Drama (one building, many wonders...)

- art school or something (could increase culture of theatre's, colosseum... etc)

Education
should enable School (+25% science)
require 3 of them to build University

- agreed

Mercantilism
just sucks

- tax management ( decreasing taxes increases happiness and culture) or something like that

Optics (just a placeholder tech to get more techs)

-


Printing Press (civis, free tech)

- bookprinter building (no idea for effect)

Right. Lets see what we can come up with.

Animal Mastery - While it's tempting to have this boost yurts and camps further I feel that would simply be an economic overkill. Would be neat if it turned all your animal cages buildings into free animal units with pack leader and strong promotion (since you could simply turn them back into buildings the loss of happiness wouldn't be a big deal). That way you also guarantee that your lategame beastmasters can get a totem. A random double strength animal unit with the hero promotion could work, but that would sort of steal the thunder from the legendary animals. A third boost could be to expand the number of high tier mounted units with you can field by one (One extra knight, War elephant and Griffon Rider). That way you would get a synergy with the cavalry tech line.

Armored Cavalry (only one unit) - Well with the knightly orders taken into account I'm not sure this tech really needs a boost. These units are strong. But a free hero unit for the first one to research the tech might work ("The Free Lances"). It's a small but helpful bonus.

Arquebuses (only one unit (and one hero)) - Same deal here. These are strong units. It could possibly allow you to upgrade the great general building that boosts ranged units by sacrificing another great general?

Banking (just two buildings, one missable (wonder)) - If possible the tech could boost the growth rate of cottages into towns. Otherwise how about simply handing out free gold to the first one to discover the tech?

Bowyers (only one unit) - Nerf some of the advanced ranged unit promotions by having this tech unlock them.

Calendar (Agrarianism/Plantations, -> Festivals...) - No boost. This is a really strong tech considering the massive commerce it produces in the early game (compared to not researching it and building cottages).

Drama (one building, many wonders...) - Already unlocks your ability to invest in culture. Needs no further boost. Hmmm... But perhaps move the free Great Artist to this tech instead of Festivals? Makes sense to me atleast.

Education (should enable School (+25% science) require 3 of them to build University) - Considering the impact of public education on our own history this tech should have a civic associated with it. Grigori and Mechanos might even get a special "religion" civic here, though the appropriate name "Enlightenment" is already taken.

Mercantilism (just sucks) - Yep it does. Perhaps getting to create a randomly selected guild without using a great person for the first one to research it?

Optics (just a placeholder tech to get more techs) - Extra sight range for cities and forts? Lock the astrology events and have them unlocked by this tech? Buildable Astrologers guild that grants +1 culture, +1 health, +1 commerce? (No beakers!)

Printing Press (civis, free tech) - Free tech is pretty good though. Should really have some special events unlocked by this tech. Unlock special spy promotion (propaganda specialist), boost libraries (+1 beaker) or simply give a one time massive bonus to the total culture value of the civilization?

Ahwaric, you were talking about overloaded techs? Look at Trade:

+1 Trade Route
enable a good civic (Free Trade)
enable tech trading
enable Tavern, Market, River Port
increases yields of Aduar, Dragon Bones and Gate to Underdark (marginal, but still)
required to found two religions

Isn't that too much? Trade is really a MUST HAVE OMG tech. I agree that trade is an important thing but here, it might be over the line.

I think you could remove the +1 trade route and the UFs increased yields and spread two of the three buildings elsewhere. Maybe let Trade keep Markets and give Tavern to the Wheel and River Port to Navigation?

Armored Cavalry (only one unit) - Well with the knightly orders taken into account I'm not sure this tech really needs a boost. These units are strong. But a free hero unit for the first one to research the tech might work ("The Free Lances"). It's a small but helpful bonus.

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Perhaps you're right. I just don't think one unit, even though powerful, is a real asset for a tech.

Mercantilism (just sucks) - Yep it does. Perhaps getting to create a randomly selected guild without using a great person for the first one to research it?

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So if I'm not the first one to research it, it would still suck?

Printing Press (civis, free tech) - Free tech is pretty good though.

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Again, if I'm not the first one... blah blah...

Some of your ideas are interesting but not easy to implement with techs... Like the +1 beaker for Library and rate of cottage growth.

Opera said:

This article is a good reading to get a good idea of how should a tech tree be designed.

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Wow, someone actually read that.

I did write that article with Fall from Heaven (and as a secondary inspiration Planetfall) in mind.

Maniac said:

Wow, someone actually read that.

I did write that article with Fall from Heaven (and as a secondary inspiration Planetfall) in mind.

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Yeah, I actually find it really interesting and well written!

Suggestion: Give Drill II-IV tech prerequisites. Bowyers and Precision would be good candidates mechanically, while Warfare and the already well-endowed Military Strategy make sense in terms of feel - probably why the City Raider and City Garrison techs are found there already...

The Military and Social trees in general seem to lack the cohesive feel of the Arcane and Divine... perhaps because they're so based on the non-FFH tree. Don't know if I can do better, but it's worth thinking about.

Explanation / Aside: Hands-down the most frustrating thing I've found is the "untouchable archer" that AI opponents produce with ease: the standard 3 strength archer with a couple +% strength promotions, but more significantly, Drill IV granting them 4-7 first strikes. Given city defense bonuses, a low-tech archer demolishes a high-tech, low-level attacker. This prevents wars of attrition - when a unit can entirely kill the attacker through Defensive Strike and first strikes, it doesn't matter how many other attackers there are, they're all dead and the defender remains undamaged.

By extension, I think this points out a major weakness in the Mage tech path. I recently laughed when I read a particular Great General's text, where she points out the dramatic effect on the battle caused by an angry mage. Unfortunately, while there are some nice spells, the most common tier 3 spell is summon XXXX - which may boast impressive stats, but having no experience collapses in the face of a first-striking enemy. My initial response had been to look at revamping the magic/mana system to give it a little more kick, but found that the main difficulty was in the amazing effectiveness and ease of access to the Drill promotions.

Continuing to think about these matters, but that's the best I can offer now.

must say that is a very good point you made.

Making more promotions require higher tier techs would be an interesting idea, and a possible incentive for researching them.

It may also slow down the power of early game units as well, which may be interesting for MP (assuming MP works with Orbis, have never tried personally).

Aside from that, I'm going to have to dwell on it a little longer...I do agree that Mercantilism and Optics are two glaringly weak techs which should be improved, but some strike me as fine at first glance.

The argument about a builder having no use for the tech Warmounts is indeed valid...but isn't that the way it should be? Why should the devoted builder go so far down the mounted line in the first place?

I don't have the tech tree in front of me, but if the answer is to unlock a builder tech, perhaps tech prereqs should also be tweaked.

Example of stuff that could easily be done: Horseback Riding. Disclaimer: I don't know what Yurts & Auls are good for. In any case, adding +1 Health from Horses to the Stable would turn that building from a diminishing benefit (only a military use) to a specific benefit (builder benefit provided you have Horses).

Maniac said:

Example of stuff that could easily be done: Horseback Riding. Disclaimer: I don't know what Yurts & Auls are good for. In any case, adding +1 Health from Horses to the Stable would turn that building from a diminishing benefit (only a military use) to a specific benefit (builder benefit provided you have Horses).

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or some commerce because horses=faster trade=less spoiled goods=more $

Just suggested in the bug thread that Education makes patrician artifacts visible for all civs. Makes sense to me that public learning inspires people to use the ruins for more then just a handy source of stone.

Also, Mercantilism should give guild units ability to "assassinate" other guilds. Sort of like priests with the inquisitor promotion can destroy other religions.

Plus, it could simulate the Renaissance neatly