Demand timetable

Is there a set timeframe between demands from the same civ? Obviously if the demand is a resource then that lasts for 20 turns but can they come back within that time to ask for something else? And if they demand gold or a tech can they make another demand a few turns later or is there a minimum period that they have to wait?

Tribute demands -- those that aren't bluffs, anyway -- are always in return for peace, and a peace deal always lasts at least 20T (unless someone breaks it before then). I don't think I've ever seen the AI try to renegotiate any peace deal while one is still in the 20T 'active' phase, but it certainly has no problem with breaking a 'per turn' deal by declaring war, regardless of what it's getting in return, be it peace, gold or whatever.

This is because the AI doesn't remember what it did on previous turns, beyond what's stored in the 'Active deals' section of the savegame, nor does it plan ahead. Its decisions on whether or not to declare war are re-made on every turn (based on e.g. relative military strength, and/or whether or not it can afford to honour its deals with you). That's why it often does 'stupid' things like declaring war just after getting an incredibly good deal (in a recent game, I made a deal to acquire my eighth Lux from the Iroquois, in return for 5 of my surplus Luxes -- then they invaded and DoW'd me on the next turn! Result: 4 unhappy citizens per city for me, at least 11 -- and possibly up to 16 -- per city for them).

So, having given the AI tribute, you should be reasonably assured of a 20T peace with no further demands, as long as you can build or retain at least an 'average' military compared to that AICiv (and it doesn't go broke trying to pay you for something) -- but if you stay at or drop to 'weak', it would have no problem with DoWing you before the 20T 'peace for tribute' deal expires, even though it would then lose whatever per-turn goods/gold you'd promised it (and if you gave it lump-sum gold or a tech for peace, then tough!). War lasts a minimum of 5T, and then you might have to give more tribute for another peace deal. But that would be a whole new deal, it wouldn't be in addition to whatever you'd given it before the DoW.

On the other hand, if your peace treaty with the AI is outside the obligatory 20T when it demands tribute, but you call its bluff and it folds, then you might well get another demand within the next 20T, since those tribute-demand decisions are also made on a per-turn basis.

tjs282 said:

So, having given the AI tribute, you should be reasonably assured of a 20T peace with no further demands, as long as you can build or retain at least an 'average' military compared to that AICiv (and it doesn't go broke trying to pay you for something) -- but if you stay at or drop to 'weak', it would have no problem with DoWing you before the 20T 'peace for tribute' deal expires, ...

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I'm not so sure about this: when you cave in to one of their tribute demands, this does not "create" a new peace deal with a minimum runtime of 20T - the current peace deal (which is usually an open ended one) just remains in place! So in theory they could dow you even the next turn, without a rep hit. (Assuming that the current peace deal that was and is in place before and after the tribute is not one that's still within some 20T minimum period.)

Having said the above, though, I can confirm that I've never experienced tribute demands of the same nation within a short period of time. It does appear so that the game has some internal "counter" to prevent tribute demands from happening "too often". Not sure whether it is 20 turns, but it seems to be a reasonable time period.

i remember only one occasion when an AI civ made a demand i yielded to, and still was DOWed by this very nation a couple of turns later. usually it practically seems to work like a new peace deal, even tough technically it is none.
t_x

Lanzelot said:

I'm not so sure about this: when you cave in to one of their tribute demands, this does not "create" a new peace deal with a minimum runtime of 20T - the current peace deal (which is usually an open ended one) just remains in place!

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Do you know that for certain? If the player refuses a non-bluff tribute-demand, the AICiv will automatically declare war, starting the 5T 'silent treatment' counter, so why wouldn't caving-in restart the '20T-deal' counter? And what if the 'Always renegotiate deals' (i.e. after the 20T-expiration) preference is set -- does that not also include peace deals? (I can't remember, because if the AICiv just asks to extend an existing peace treaty without demanding tribute, I usually click 'OK' -- anything for a quiet life! -- and I don't habitually check the 'Active Deals' the following turn)

So in theory they could dow you even the next turn, without a rep hit. (Assuming that the current peace deal that was and is in place before and after the tribute is not one that's still within some 20T minimum period.)

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I never said they wouldn't DoW after receiving tribute, only that doing so would automatically break any tribute-per-turn peace deal you'd made with them. Although, based on the example I gave (and similar instances too numerous to catalogue!), it's pretty clear that the AI doesn't 'care' about taking rep hits, nor do rep-hits appear to noticeably affect inter-AICiv relations/trade (especially at the higher difficulty levels, when the AIs are already far more favourably inclined to deal with each other than with the human player).

Having said the above, though, I can confirm that I've never experienced tribute demands of the same nation within a short period of time. It does appear so that the game has some internal "counter" to prevent tribute demands from happening "too often". Not sure whether it is 20 turns, but it seems to be a reasonable time period.

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I have to admit that I'm guessing, but given the 20T rule for all other deals, as you say, it seemed reasonable. Although I did read somewhere on here that if you gift something to an AICiv to try and improve its attiude, that attitude adjustment will only last 10T, so the minimum period between tribute-demands might actually also be 10T.

Off-topic, CivGripe No. 127:

I also would have expected a 20 turn 'stand down' period between demands from the same civ but the reason I asked the question is that China demanded cash from me in 500 AD and then again in 600 AD which is only 10 turns. I was extremely weak against all other civs but only China made any demands.

Not that I care - I now have cavalry! See how you like that China! So what if you have riflemen.

tjs282 said:

(as if modern Italy would refuse to trade fairly with modern Germany because the Huns attacked Roman towns 1600-1700 years ago!).

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Even more so, as the Huns were not even a Germanic tribe... They came from central asia.
However, there were also Germanic tribes which attacked Rome in those dark ages. You are probably referring to the Alarich, King of the Visigoths, who captured and pillaged Rome itself in 410AD?
(Though I don't know, wheher he first demanded tribute and the Romans refused... )

Lanzelot said:

Even more so, as the Huns were not even a Germanic tribe... They came from central asia.

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As in Attilla the Hun, of course. Yes, sorry, my dumb mistake -- British WWI+II propaganda ("No! Don't mention the War!") referred to Germans as Huns, and the cultural fallout from that kind of ingrained prejudice (e.g. Biggles books, Commando comics, TV comedians, etc.) was still in fairly wide circulation when I was a kid -- though my parents did their best to steer me away from it. Good news is, my generation is probably the last to have been exposed to that jingoistic cr*p (these days, anti-German feelings in Britain, if any, generally stem from 1966 rather than 1914-45... but I have no interest in football!): also, I married a German, so it can't have affected me that badly.

However, there were also Germanic tribes which attacked Rome in those dark ages. You are probably referring to the Alarich, King of the Visigoths, who captured and pillaged Rome itself in 410AD?

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Yes, the Visigoths. Having also read all the 'proper' Asterix books, I really should have remembered that...

tjs282 said:

War lasts a minimum of 5T.

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I have never seen this before. Is it coded somewhere? It will make my negotiations much simpler I think.

Originally Posted by tjs282
War lasts a minimum of 5T.

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I have never seen this before. Is it coded somewhere? It will make my negotiations much simpler I think.

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Admittedly, I've never actually counted exactly how many turns it takes to get the AI to talk, but I prefer building to fighting, so I usually don't start wars (unless I need room to expand), and I try to end them as early as possible. So before I finally installed CivAssistII, whenever I got DoW'd, I would use the 'diplomacy' button or F4 at the end of every 'warfare' turn to see whether my enemy(s) would talk yet. Seemed like they never would for at least the first 3-4T -- so 5T became pretty much a rule of thumb for me. (Now, CAII tells me exactly when they've become willing to negotiate.)

From what I've seen in my games, if combat has occurred that turn, and/or they still have units within your borders, and/or you have units within theirs (except naval units, I think), and/or they are still rated 'stronger' than you, then they usually won't talk. So the first couple of turns after a DoW from/ against a neighbour, you'd never be able to negotiate anyway, because they'll be busy throwing everything they have at you (or vice versa). If they started it because they were 'strong', you'll almost always have to fight them to at least military parity; and if you started it for land/resources (or you're punishing their temerity) you'll usually have to take a couple of their cities, before they'll be willing to negotiate peace terms. (If I didn't start the fight, I prefer them to beg!)

However, in situations where I'm DoW'd by an AICiv with whom I have little to no contact (e.g. a neighbour signs a military alliance aginst me with an AICiv on another continent), my envoys to the overseas civ are still always refused for several turns afterwards, even though no actual combat has taken place -- which does strongly imply that there is some kind of hard-coded minimum duration for every war.