Musketmen - poor design, poor tech placement?

AfterShafter

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Being someone who enjoys playing the French, I suppose I have more occasion to think upon the use of the Musketman class unit that you get with gunpowder, but I'm wondering - am I the only one who thinks this is an inherently weak unit design which has a very small time-window to boot?

1 movement, 9 power, no special abilities. My guess is this is supposed to be the next Longbowman, but unlike the longbowman, it has no inherent defensive benefits. It has no particular strenghts VS other unit types, no movement benefits, no anything. Its one benefit over older densive type units is that it has a higher power, but not hugely so, and it actually has less power than the similar time period knight class unit which you'll see rolling around. It only has one more power than macemen with no substantive benefit VS melee units. It is a passable mobile defender (particularly the fast French musketeer) but really nothing special, and I find myself hard pressed to find a reason or the time to build more than a few of them.

Add tot his that, once you get the tech required for these guys, if you have engineering (I have almost never had a game where I haven't at this point) you can start researching Grenadiers right away. Grenadiers which cost 125% as much to make but are true knight busters (12 attack power) with the same movement as musketmen, the same potential upgrades, and an attack bonus VS rifleman which gives them *way* more longevity than the musketmen.

So, I'm asking - does anyone else think this is just a poorly designed unit that fills no overwhelming role with the tech to replace it coming directly after the tech that allows you to build them? Don't get me wrong, I do like them, musketeers in particular, but they don't pack enough oomph and don't last long enough to match up to many other UU's out there - let alone the regular musketmen. I get the feeling that the idea behind the musketman is that it's supposed to be the next longbowman, but it really fails in this role, but is quickly replaced so its failure doesn't stick out too much.
 
They are, indeed, a strange little unit that doesn't seem to have a place in medieval or renaissance armies. It should also be noted that Macemen, Crossbowmen, and Longbowmen all promote into Grenadiers and Rifleman, bringing along their city raider and first strike promotions, giving the musketman yet another disadvantage...
 
If you play on quick or normal speed, then really, musketmen are only useful during the span of 1 tech. I play epic and i do build a couple dozen musketmen. An extra strengh is usefull while you try to reach the next tough guys, and they are neither melee or ranged, they are gunpownder units, a good choise against oponents with lots of old upgraded units. Butyea, they could get some love.
 
Aside from going obsolete far too quickly, I think musketmen are fine. Though they lack defensive bonuses like longbowmen, the 3 additional strength more than makes up for. Aside from knights, they have an edge over every other medieval unit, and the weakness against knights can compensated by using defensive terrain or by stacking them with pikemen.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=179982
 
Brancaleone said:
If you play on quick or normal speed, then really, musketmen are only useful during the span of 1 tech. I play epic and i do build a couple dozen musketmen. An extra strengh is usefull while you try to reach the next tough guys, and they are neither melee or ranged, they are gunpownder units, a good choise against oponents with lots of old upgraded units. Butyea, they could get some love.

I also play Epic exclusively and I feel it's the only reason I ever build any, at all. I suppose you're right about the upgrades though - if the enemy is loaded up on anti-melee/archery upgrades they do (briefly) fill a gap.
 
I agree, it is not an important unit, which I guess is historically accurate, since the early matchlock weapons weren't really more effective than longbows, just easier to use. I always thought it odd that they are obsoleted so quickly, perhaps more so than any other unit. Together with Crossbowmen, the Musketman is a unit that doesn't get produced unless you happen to be in a war at that particular moment, or unless you are deliberately trying to use appropriate techs for the time period (instead of rushing to the next most powerful tech). However, I would rather have more "useless" units than less for variety. I just feel bad for the French; I think they may have the most useless unique unit in the game (except perhaps for the Incas).
 
they're horrible units, 1 strength over maceman? GAH!

if they actually could do something as a unit their tech placement would be fine because in theory their beeline is pretty efficient. machinery, guilds, gunpowder and u can make em.

just for example under a normal mace tech u'd need only 3 techs to get from mace's to muskets: feudalism, guilds, gunpowder. but because they're so bad no1 bothers doing it like that and they just pick em up as they start to finish up their techs to rifles or cavalry.
 
Just a few hours ago i started my first game as the french, there unique unit was always a deterent from me choosing them. Napoleon's updated traits,and the addition of a unique building(sumthings better than nothing) swung me to play them.
 
AriochIV said:
I agree, it is not an important unit, which I guess is historically accurate, since the early matchlock weapons weren't really more effective than longbows, just easier to use. I always thought it odd that they are obsoleted so quickly, perhaps more so than any other unit. Together with Crossbowmen, the Musketman is a unit that doesn't get produced unless you happen to be in a war at that particular moment, or unless you are deliberately trying to use appropriate techs for the time period (instead of rushing to the next most powerful tech). However, I would rather have more "useless" units than less for variety. I just feel bad for the French; I think they may have the most useless unique unit in the game (except perhaps for the Incas).

quechua is the best UU in the game.
 
It is possible to get to Gunpowder considerably earlier though and in that case Musketmen have a pretty solid effect on the game. They are the first Gunpowder units so nothing will have a bonus vs them and they ignore the defensive benefits of Walls/Castles making them not too bad of a choice for the attack.

That said, in a 'normal' game tech progession they do feel pretty neglected. I would prefer for them to have some sort of bonus that gives them a little bit of longevity (or else a fairly cheap cost compared to Grenadiers/Rifles). As is, I rarely build them in the games, but the games I *do* build them (ie, the ones where I shoot for early Gunpowder), I tend to build quite a few of them and they seem to do pretty well overall
 
Uncle Joe said:
It is possible to get to Gunpowder considerably earlier though and in that case Musketmen have a pretty solid effect on the game. They are the first Gunpowder units so nothing will have a bonus vs them and they ignore the defensive benefits of Walls/Castles making them not too bad of a choice for the attack.
But even if you rush to Gunpowder, a better unit is still just one tech away.

yavoon said:
quechua is the best UU in the game.
Are you being sarcastic?
 
AriochIV said:
Are you being sarcastic?

Nothing pulls off a super-early rush like those buggers... If you start really close to someone as the Incans, they're practically a freebie early elimination. I don't like them myself, but... Meh, I can see how some people would go for that.
 
maby thay can be givven an advantage vs some units..

even tho the march lock isnt that great, it did change alot.
and many battles whear won, only due to one side haveing the match lock and others useing regurler units..

for ex, knights chould be chargeing into a formation of musketmen, and 30 feet away the musketmen fire. this whould send any formation of knights into compleat disoray. the fist voly whold so weaken them, or any close combat toops it whould be hard press to keep fighting.

maby thay need to be gevin a defense of 10? and first strike for free?
something needs to be done to help them along..

the ottoman uu is a musetman that giets 25% vs archers, malee units, and other gun powder units.
 
But even if you rush to Gunpowder, a better unit is still just one tech away.

No, not if you rush to Gunpowder. You can get there down the Machinery/Feudalism/Guilds path (and in fact I'll do this from time to time as Spain to get Conquistadors). From there, you are 4 techs away from Chemistry and it lets you have access to Musketmen far sooner than you would think.
 
AfterShafter said:
Nothing pulls off a super-early rush like those buggers... If you start really close to someone as the Incans, they're practically a freebie early elimination. I don't like them myself, but... Meh, I can see how some people would go for that.
But they don't have a bonus against regular Warriors, and even against Archers in a city, it's an even fight. Seems there are easier ways to get a second city.

No, not if you rush to Gunpowder. You can get there down the Machinery/Feudalism/Guilds path (and in fact I'll do this from time to time as Spain to get Conquistadors). From there, you are 4 techs away from Chemistry and it lets you have access to Musketmen far sooner than you would think.
Ah, I see. As you can tell I've never tried it. :)
 
Uncle_Joe said:
No, not if you rush to Gunpowder. You can get there down the Machinery/Feudalism/Guilds path (and in fact I'll do this from time to time as Spain to get Conquistadors). From there, you are 4 techs away from Chemistry and it lets you have access to Musketmen far sooner than you would think.

It's still kind of lame that four techs is the absolute farthest Chemistry will be ever be from Gunpowder, and that's if you do a hard rush to Gunpowder. It doesn't seem like enough that the only way musketmen will be even marginally useful is if you beeline to them.
 
If you play marathon that occasionally have a use, but maybe they should be 10 str base, as this seems a more logical progression:- maces 8, muskets 10, grens 12, rifles, 14
 
In a game where you have very narrow opportunities to win wars, Musketmen are a GOD send. As France, you beeline to gunpowder, slam on the research brakes to do some mass upgrading, and send a fleet of musketmen at your enemy. Mind you, I usually end up sending them with Knights (which is a little bizarre).
 
thay do ignore walls
 
I play on epic to very rare I build muskets as for the french muskets I think it's more a case of unique graphic than an actual unqiue unit.
 
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