[MOD] Planet Roanoke, a/k/a all SMAC'ed up
- Thread starter Padmewan
- Start date
One game discrepency I'm trying to iron out is that if we switch from "commerce" to "energy," where in our game does trade and other commerce fit in, if at all?
I ask because in SMAC, terrain improvements were energy-focused. In Civ3+4, they are commerce-focused. In Civ4 commerce makes sense, because the civ directs the profits of that commerce to some end (science or culture) or stores it as "gold."
So far in our game (and SMAC) we don't distinguish between "energy" as a measure of what happens in society-at-large and "energy" as a means to store value. This creates a couple of game / story problems:
1. If terrain improvements produce energy directly, there is no dynamic model of value-generation. This would be like having gold in Civ4 coming ONLY from gold mines. In our mod, there is on the flip side no improvement that works like a hamlet/town -- the idea of an energy plant becoming more valuable over time is pretty silly. (Or is it? Maybe that's the sci-fi part of our mod?)
2. Civ4 has the idea of a Power Plant that makes factories more effective. In our game, should the Power Plant be in the base, or out on the terrain? Energy is energy, after all...? Instead of building a nuclear reactor in a base, should the reactor be built on a tile and give that tile +X energy instead? After all, solar panels or wind turbines are also energy plants -- why not other types?
I am trying to logic through what it is that a future society will find valuable as a dynamic social activity that can be traded. One idea I'm fumbling around with is "knowledge." You could imagine an R&D Plant terrain improvement that works like a hamlet and keeps getting more valuable with time. However, the problem with "knowledge" replacing "commerce" is that while "knowledge" pretty obviously buys you "research," it doesn't buy you "culture" or "gold."
Let me rephrase all of this: If "energy" is this mod's equivalent of "gold," what kinds of dynamic social activities create energy that we can then model both in terrain improvements and in trade?
I ask because in SMAC, terrain improvements were energy-focused. In Civ3+4, they are commerce-focused. In Civ4 commerce makes sense, because the civ directs the profits of that commerce to some end (science or culture) or stores it as "gold."
So far in our game (and SMAC) we don't distinguish between "energy" as a measure of what happens in society-at-large and "energy" as a means to store value. This creates a couple of game / story problems:
1. If terrain improvements produce energy directly, there is no dynamic model of value-generation. This would be like having gold in Civ4 coming ONLY from gold mines. In our mod, there is on the flip side no improvement that works like a hamlet/town -- the idea of an energy plant becoming more valuable over time is pretty silly. (Or is it? Maybe that's the sci-fi part of our mod?)
2. Civ4 has the idea of a Power Plant that makes factories more effective. In our game, should the Power Plant be in the base, or out on the terrain? Energy is energy, after all...? Instead of building a nuclear reactor in a base, should the reactor be built on a tile and give that tile +X energy instead? After all, solar panels or wind turbines are also energy plants -- why not other types?
I am trying to logic through what it is that a future society will find valuable as a dynamic social activity that can be traded. One idea I'm fumbling around with is "knowledge." You could imagine an R&D Plant terrain improvement that works like a hamlet and keeps getting more valuable with time. However, the problem with "knowledge" replacing "commerce" is that while "knowledge" pretty obviously buys you "research," it doesn't buy you "culture" or "gold."
Let me rephrase all of this: If "energy" is this mod's equivalent of "gold," what kinds of dynamic social activities create energy that we can then model both in terrain improvements and in trade?
BlazeRedSXT
Warlord
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- Feb 6, 2003
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- 294
I thought I would throw an idea in here, based on the energy/commerce conversation developing.
It seems to me that most likely there are 2 scenarios possible.
1) Civilization has developed to a "Star Trek" level. That is, within a specific Civ or Race, or Culture I suppose, money, or commerce has no real value as everyone contributes to the common good willingly(well.. I imagine there are a small number of detractors to the philosophy, but overall...). That would leave energy replacing commerce fully viable, as commerce(gold) wouldn't be all that important in and of itself. But energy to power thier entertainment, R&D, and expansion would all require energy, and therefore benefit the Civ as a whole.
2) Colonization is spurred by greed. Massive corporations or governments funding the push for expansion. In this case you would want both commerce(gold) and energy. Gold generates funds to build and expand. Energy still required for the demanding tasks of exploration and R&D. you as what would generate commerce on a new world.. you name it.. from rare minerals to lifeforms(even microbial ones would probably fetch huge money for R&D or pure academic reasons). I ask myself this.. how do flood plains directly generate commerce? it does in Civ4... but why? who knows. You have a better foundation to start with commerce and add energy "improvments" like solar panels and solar wind catchers etc. Maybe you could have them not grow with time, but add bonuses through techs. When you research bio-molecular engineering(I have no idea if this is a real tech for you.. just saying), that type of tech will increase you energy output per Solar Panel by +x Energy. same with Gold. have mines or bio-harvestor Improvements that increase when a relative tech gets better. c.fe has a Generic fantasy Mod where he has added a new yeild type.. so adding energy to food , gold, and production is possible(though I think he is still having graphical representation issues).
Anyway... thats how I see it. It really depends on how you feel these colonisations were driven.. by greed, or co-operation
Cheers!
It seems to me that most likely there are 2 scenarios possible.
1) Civilization has developed to a "Star Trek" level. That is, within a specific Civ or Race, or Culture I suppose, money, or commerce has no real value as everyone contributes to the common good willingly(well.. I imagine there are a small number of detractors to the philosophy, but overall...). That would leave energy replacing commerce fully viable, as commerce(gold) wouldn't be all that important in and of itself. But energy to power thier entertainment, R&D, and expansion would all require energy, and therefore benefit the Civ as a whole.
2) Colonization is spurred by greed. Massive corporations or governments funding the push for expansion. In this case you would want both commerce(gold) and energy. Gold generates funds to build and expand. Energy still required for the demanding tasks of exploration and R&D. you as what would generate commerce on a new world.. you name it.. from rare minerals to lifeforms(even microbial ones would probably fetch huge money for R&D or pure academic reasons). I ask myself this.. how do flood plains directly generate commerce? it does in Civ4... but why? who knows. You have a better foundation to start with commerce and add energy "improvments" like solar panels and solar wind catchers etc. Maybe you could have them not grow with time, but add bonuses through techs. When you research bio-molecular engineering(I have no idea if this is a real tech for you.. just saying), that type of tech will increase you energy output per Solar Panel by +x Energy. same with Gold. have mines or bio-harvestor Improvements that increase when a relative tech gets better. c.fe has a Generic fantasy Mod where he has added a new yeild type.. so adding energy to food , gold, and production is possible(though I think he is still having graphical representation issues).
Anyway... thats how I see it. It really depends on how you feel these colonisations were driven.. by greed, or co-operation
Cheers!
Thanks for your thoughts, BlazeRedSXT.
I do appreciate your comments and think they are helpful in helping to sharpen the question of what I'm looking for here... which is a combination of understanding what a future economy would look like (realism) and how the gameplay mechanism would work (fun).
I could see this in another sci-fi setting, but this isn't the case on Roanoke, where the colonists are stranded on a desert planet with very little to survive on. Although maybe they can reach such a state later in the game?BlazeRedSXT said:
Great idea, but unfortunately as with #1 these are marooned colonists who THOUGHT they were coming for whatever reason but now are barely scratching a living. Though maybe later on they can revive commerce?
Actually it's not flood plains but rivers that generate commerce, and this makes historical sense even up to modern times since rivers help transport goods for commercial purposes. See, my problem is Civ4 makes too much sense to me, so much that I have a hard time bending the rules...
Actually, I'm thinking of maybe going the other way around and starting with baseline energy that is replaced later with commerce improvements that become possible when colonists are out of survival mode. My thought is that a survival economy doesn't have the "luxury" of thinking about synergistic commerce, but an economist would probably tell me different. (Then again, what would an economist say about the Civ4 model to begin with?)
I do appreciate your comments and think they are helpful in helping to sharpen the question of what I'm looking for here... which is a combination of understanding what a future economy would look like (realism) and how the gameplay mechanism would work (fun).
BlazeRedSXT
Warlord
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Ahh.. I see your points, and I hadn't nesecarily considered the prescise scenario when developing my thoughts on my 2 options...
That being said, the base reasons for colonization could still hold valid. As in # 1 said colonists would still be working together to ensure survuival.. eventually returning to a more communal norm.
And in #2, and remarking on needing "luxury", 2 things spark me here.
First, as an example of human motivation in survival situation, and looking to a fictional base, see George Romero's Land of the Dead. The greedy find a way to capitalise on any situation. And, in the case where being trapped "alone" in this situation, I should think the need for diversion, or luxury items would be just as high as it would be normally.
I am really eager to see where this Mod goes, what you have so far is pretty great .
Cheers!
That being said, the base reasons for colonization could still hold valid. As in # 1 said colonists would still be working together to ensure survuival.. eventually returning to a more communal norm.
And in #2, and remarking on needing "luxury", 2 things spark me here.
First, as an example of human motivation in survival situation, and looking to a fictional base, see George Romero's Land of the Dead. The greedy find a way to capitalise on any situation. And, in the case where being trapped "alone" in this situation, I should think the need for diversion, or luxury items would be just as high as it would be normally.
I am really eager to see where this Mod goes, what you have so far is pretty great .
Cheers!
BlazeRedSXT said:
Well, the problem is that I'm not sure these people would work together to save their fellow man. Actually I'm sure some would spit on you, except that might give you water to survive.
So the big problem is finding something worth trading here. Commerce and gold unfortunately became interchangeable along the way and is confusing.
Early on food is all that is important, maybe heat and shelter. Hard to trade or collect shelter though. Energy is a constant, but how do you rush build with energy? Higher level techs I guess.
Keep up the discussion as my fog is lifting, slowly...
Thanks for keeping this thread going as it's helping me think as well. woodelf, re: how energy "rush building," that's where I think the distinction between "Commerce" and "Gold" in vanilla is important. In Vanilla you rush with Gold, not Commerce, on the logic that you are "buying" the thing rather than simply building it yourself. (Whom you are buying it from I'm not sure since Civ considers the private and public economies as merged). Likewise, in our hypothetical future energy, not gold or dollars, becomes the cash/currency of trade.
In terms of gameworld, then, harvesting energy is a little like digging for gold to create wealth. (see Spanish conquest of Central America). Creating true wealth comes from some form of economic activity, which you trade using the currency of energy.
Based on quick research in Wikipedia I came up with "Nitrogen economy" in which liquid nitrogen is the storage of value, but that's too quickly superceded in this game with "Resonance economy" so the first can just be changed to "Industrial economy" as a tech name. Resonance is an energy form that the colonists discover thanks to the uber-advanced technology of the fibersea/Lattice that they learn to collect and account for -- thus the need for Quantum Accounting, this stuff doesn't make linear mathematical sense. If what I'm saying is unclear, it's because I have no idea what I'm talking about! Perhaps the quantum nature of this new energy means that some kind of logrithmic growth over time of an energy harvester could also make sense?
Anyway, it's certainly true that even a survival economy will need trade -- tho some of that is modeled in the game with trading resources. Unfortunately Civ never had the concept of trading food, and this is precisely what an economy, whether survival or advanced, would be trading for.
Also, purely from an aesthetic POV I have a bit of a problem with the idea of creating suburbs of the bases that generate commerce. Doesn't feel sci-fi enough to me. (And a "Space Mall" would just be too kitschy).
Next post reserved for a new proposal...
In terms of gameworld, then, harvesting energy is a little like digging for gold to create wealth. (see Spanish conquest of Central America). Creating true wealth comes from some form of economic activity, which you trade using the currency of energy.
Based on quick research in Wikipedia I came up with "Nitrogen economy" in which liquid nitrogen is the storage of value, but that's too quickly superceded in this game with "Resonance economy" so the first can just be changed to "Industrial economy" as a tech name. Resonance is an energy form that the colonists discover thanks to the uber-advanced technology of the fibersea/Lattice that they learn to collect and account for -- thus the need for Quantum Accounting, this stuff doesn't make linear mathematical sense. If what I'm saying is unclear, it's because I have no idea what I'm talking about! Perhaps the quantum nature of this new energy means that some kind of logrithmic growth over time of an energy harvester could also make sense?
Anyway, it's certainly true that even a survival economy will need trade -- tho some of that is modeled in the game with trading resources. Unfortunately Civ never had the concept of trading food, and this is precisely what an economy, whether survival or advanced, would be trading for.
Also, purely from an aesthetic POV I have a bit of a problem with the idea of creating suburbs of the bases that generate commerce. Doesn't feel sci-fi enough to me. (And a "Space Mall" would just be too kitschy).
Next post reserved for a new proposal...
So here's a new proposal around modeling the economy. As I mentioned in the first few posts regarding mod goals, one interest I have is to present conflict options that are non-military but offer just as much fun and excitement to the player. While it's possible that stranded colonists will engage in military conquest of each other (particularly those led by certain personalities), it seems to me that conflict in human history, while noteworthy, is actually not the norm. The problem is then there are long stretches of history that are relegated to a few paragraphs because nothing "interesting" is going on.
Well, so how do we make economic conflict more interesting? Here's a proposal: active economy-building using units to model trade, that can be interfered with using other units.
The idea was inspired originally by Great Merchants and their ability to carry out Trade Missions. Here's the twist: you can build a limited number of Trade Envoys (the number would be limited by some combination of your "GNP" and your tech, or maybe your buildings) that you dispatch to other factions' cities to conduct trade missions. Now, we can stop there and treat them as poor cousins of Great Merchants -- which would make coding them a lot easier!
However, let's take this a few steps further:
1. A trade mission produces benefits to both parties -- the sender and the recipient.
2. As a consequence, a trade mission also improves diplomacy between the two parties (this will be hard to model for the player, I guess, except through common sense that you normally don't kill folks who give you $$$)
3. To make this less micro-managy, the Trade Envoy does not get consumed upon executing the trade mission, but rather generates a small amount of $$$ each turn.
4. "Assassin" type units from unfriendly factions can target and kill Trade Envoys, with some kind of bonus to the aggressor and some kind of penalty to the victims. If #3 is not implemented, they can intercept the Envoys; if it is, they work by infiltrating the base where the Envoy is "working."
5. If #3 is implemented, we should probably remove existing city-to-city trade.
My basic question: would this be FUN?
When I have time later I might just post this as a separate thread to get general feedback, as if it is fun, maybe it should be a standalone mod (that we would of course use).
Well, so how do we make economic conflict more interesting? Here's a proposal: active economy-building using units to model trade, that can be interfered with using other units.
The idea was inspired originally by Great Merchants and their ability to carry out Trade Missions. Here's the twist: you can build a limited number of Trade Envoys (the number would be limited by some combination of your "GNP" and your tech, or maybe your buildings) that you dispatch to other factions' cities to conduct trade missions. Now, we can stop there and treat them as poor cousins of Great Merchants -- which would make coding them a lot easier!
However, let's take this a few steps further:
1. A trade mission produces benefits to both parties -- the sender and the recipient.
2. As a consequence, a trade mission also improves diplomacy between the two parties (this will be hard to model for the player, I guess, except through common sense that you normally don't kill folks who give you $$$)
3. To make this less micro-managy, the Trade Envoy does not get consumed upon executing the trade mission, but rather generates a small amount of $$$ each turn.
4. "Assassin" type units from unfriendly factions can target and kill Trade Envoys, with some kind of bonus to the aggressor and some kind of penalty to the victims. If #3 is not implemented, they can intercept the Envoys; if it is, they work by infiltrating the base where the Envoy is "working."
5. If #3 is implemented, we should probably remove existing city-to-city trade.
My basic question: would this be FUN?
When I have time later I might just post this as a separate thread to get general feedback, as if it is fun, maybe it should be a standalone mod (that we would of course use).
GeoModder
Deity
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- Nov 29, 2005
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- 7,512
Padmewan said:
In your mod, humans wandering around will be at risk quite offen. Therefore industrial construction would more offen be robotic, and the production itself as well. Not to mention the lack of a cheap labourforce like in SMAC.
Therefore, you could consider a power'plant' like solar fields or windmills be growing over time as robots add more and more panels/mills, so bringing up more energy.
Graphicswise, it would be adding new mirrors/turbines after each growcycle.
Of course, nuclear reactors and other base-situated powerplants wouldn't be able to extend their operations for lack of space, so you could give these a fixed amount of energy-production, perhaps only increased slightly if a better energy-source or method of energy-production is found.
I have some thoughts about other-planet Mods in general, maybe they can help.
Gold is the wrong thing to use for energy in civ 4 because it isn't local. Energy is local, it is what makes growth and sustainment possible, and it is mainly produced by improvements. It should be represented by "food".
Population is population of ROBOTS. More energy lets you make and operate more of them, which go out and work improvements, though they can be made in special kinds that stay in the city.
Gold goes into a civ wide pool. It is produced by improvements that grow if you plant them and attend to them with robots (towns). It is required to complete special projects early and to maintain units that do non routine tasks and to manage large empires. It is what makes research work. Gold represents human engagement, applied intelligence.
Happiness is what you have to have to keep your robots working when they are too numerous in a locale or when war is going on. Happiness represents spare parts. So instead of cathedrals you have repair shops and robot factories.
Gold is the wrong thing to use for energy in civ 4 because it isn't local. Energy is local, it is what makes growth and sustainment possible, and it is mainly produced by improvements. It should be represented by "food".
Population is population of ROBOTS. More energy lets you make and operate more of them, which go out and work improvements, though they can be made in special kinds that stay in the city.
Gold goes into a civ wide pool. It is produced by improvements that grow if you plant them and attend to them with robots (towns). It is required to complete special projects early and to maintain units that do non routine tasks and to manage large empires. It is what makes research work. Gold represents human engagement, applied intelligence.
Happiness is what you have to have to keep your robots working when they are too numerous in a locale or when war is going on. Happiness represents spare parts. So instead of cathedrals you have repair shops and robot factories.
Actually Tholish, some of those ideas are in the works for the Borg Lifeform. Different buildings will make them happy, like repair shops and factories. Keep the ideas coming!
Gold, energy, and civinomics I'm leaving to Padmewan and others.
Gold, energy, and civinomics I'm leaving to Padmewan and others.
Latest version uploaded -- chief among the upgrades is a bugfix for the CTD. Please download if you are playtesting and experiencing the CTD (which was due to an XML/graphic problem).
I'll get back to substantive changes now that we've nailed this bad mofo. More responses to suggestions shortly...
I'll get back to substantive changes now that we've nailed this bad mofo. More responses to suggestions shortly...
Maybe that's how culture should expand in vanilla to begin with. Definitely some cultural slowdown is helpful, as I dislike the artificiality of how "culture" expands your sphere of influence. I think the translation of culture into some vague sci-fi/fantasy "Psi" concept may work; dunno. What exactly is "Psi"? I was just thinking it was some kind of advanced psych-ops for a slightly dystopic future in which governments control subjects through subtle marketing techniques, not quite like a totalitarian regime but more like Coca-Cola. "Culture," on the hand, is something that feels out of the control of a government (but perhaps under the "control" of a civilization) and therefore makes sense to spread via trade.woodelf said:
The mod would give trade a bit more flavor and some more possible negatives to make it more... balanced? By creating a global community I think it also reduces the incentives for war, if war with the cultural exporter causes unhappiness in the other civ.
Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone for their suggestions about logical improvements for an alien setting. My current proposal for energy improvements goes back to vanilla basics, however:
1. Commercial industry (+1 en)
2. Commercial services (+2 en)
3. R&D plant (+3 en)
4. Financial center (+5 en)
My main problem had been with names and coming up with something that comports with xeno-colonial development. The idea is that there are industries that drive the basic infrastructure, military, etc. of a faction, and others that are outside state control that contribute instead to the overall economy.
In fact, I might just suggest something like this to make it track human development even more closely:
1. Agribusiness (+2 food)
2. Light industry (+1 food / +1 en)
3. Service sector (+3 en)
4. R&D quad (+4 en)
5. Financial center (+6 en)
Of course, given what I now know about AI decision-making, it's dangerous to change yields for a growing improvement. Perhaps it makes more sense that these improvements require Terraform I to have happened, which present the choice of (a) build a farm, or (b) build a "cottage" -- which is more like vanilla and which therefore I can trust to work better...
