Alternate History Thread V

Though, that was far from the greatest prize of that intervention...
...the colonies?
das said:
Republicans (a religious as well as political movement in this case)
Generated by the Swiss, or was this an Italian or Low Countries thing? Also uh when did they pop up?
das said:
Turkey did rather worse than in OTL in general, but something really bad happened rather later than you say (early to mid 16th century).
Kızılbaş? Some other kind of religious-related issue, expanding on the usual 16th century Ottoman brigandage, government rebel, and peasant rebel issues in Anatolia? I suppose now would be a good idea to ask if that Iranian thing is Safawiya or Turkoman or whatever it is.
das said:
A bit of both; most importantly, the War of Burgundian Succession was a much more drawn-out and serious affair than in OTL and spawned a series of conflicts that basically replaced the Italian Wars in this world
Would that be a first-order effect of the PoD, secondary, tertiary...? Might it be something to do with the Nicopolis crusade?
das said:
That's one of the things that happened to Lithuania, yes. Originally there was some other union still, but it didn't work out too well in the end...
...or was the PoD related to the final stages of the Order's struggle with Lithuania for Samogitia? Or, in fact, the Order at all...

Hmm, or maybe Vytautas managed to perform well against that Golden Horde army on the Vorskla...
das said:
It could also be translated differently, but that would make it too easy.
So, a Slavic-ruled state? Claims descent from the grand princes of Kiev?
das said:
The Kingdom of Livonia, a Danish satellite state though ruled by a German dynasty founded a renegade member of the Order's local government.
Under what circumstances did the Prussian branch of the Order seize Kurland?
das said:
Yes, that was supposed to be Smolensk and Polotsk; I was afraid the borders were not close enough to the originals to show that clearly. They are not autonomous states, though; Lithuania is more of a feudal confederation at this point, bound by mutual treaties, interests and a ruling dynasty, if not necessarily the same rulers (not entirely unlike a more consolidated, less quarrelsome version of later Kievan Rus).
So it is ruled by Lithuanians. Is that the area of the PoD, then?
 
...the colonies?

No, or rather not directly.

Generated by the Swiss, or was this an Italian or Low Countries thing? Also uh when did they pop up?

Neither of the three; the original movement appeared in the early 15th century, but it changed, evolved and spread quite a lot since then.

Kızılbaş? Some other kind of religious-related issue, expanding on the usual 16th century Ottoman brigandage, government rebel, and peasant rebel issues in Anatolia? I suppose now would be a good idea to ask if that Iranian thing is Safawiya or Turkoman or whatever it is.

All of the former were definitely a part of it, but not more than that. The latter would be a pertinent question indeed; it is neither of the two, though somewhat closer to the former in some regards I suppose.

Would that be a first-order effect of the PoD, secondary, tertiary...? Might it be something to do with the Nicopolis crusade?

Tertiary, and the Balkan crusades don't have a direct connection to this.

...or was the PoD related to the final stages of the Order's struggle with Lithuania for Samogitia? Or, in fact, the Order at all...

No.

Hmm, or maybe Vytautas managed to perform well against that Golden Horde army on the Vorskla...

Well, not exactly, but Lithuania did do rather better (and rather more) against the Golden Horde in this world, at least early on.

So, a Slavic-ruled state? Claims descent from the grand princes of Kiev?

Yes (though it would be more accurate to say that it's Russian-ruled, what with ethnic complexity and all) and yes and to be fair its current rulers do as a matter of fact descend from a branch of a Rurikid branch that actually did rule Kiev on several occasions.

Under what circumstances did the Prussian branch of the Order seize Kurland?

Under the circumstances of internal power struggles in the Order, religious dissension, assorted foreign intervention and, ofcourse, the confusing set of intrigues that ended with the establishment of the Kingdom of Livonia. The Livonians and their Danish allies at first tried to secure Kurland as well, but the newly reformed (no, not in that way) Order was propped up by both Sweden and, rather less enthusiastically and somewhat unexpectedly, the Gediminids. Ultimately after a few years of somewhat inconclusive fighting skilled diplomatic maneuverings by the Order's leadership managed to keep the situation from dissolving into something like the OTL Livonian War, even though Livonia itself remained independent and pro-Danish (and un-Catholic, though secretly the Grandmaster was really only too happy about that).

So it is ruled by Lithuanians. Is that the area of the PoD, then?

No, but it was of huge importance for the PoD's eventual effects on greater European affairs.
 
Does East Asia's remarkable similarity to the OTL time period suggest a recent (to the current situation) POD due to the lack of butterflies?
 
Turkey did rather worse than in OTL in general, but something really bad happened rather later than you say (early to mid 16th century).
So Hungary went down before that?

Anyway, is it something to do with Ottokar or Wenceslaus?
 
Does East Asia's remarkable similarity to the OTL time period suggest a recent (to the current situation) POD due to the lack of butterflies?

Yes, though it might not be as recent as you think; there have been butterflies, they just weren't significant enough to seriously and visibly change the map of East Asia as yet (but, say, Japan is pretty darn different already).

So Hungary went down before that?

Yes.

Anyway, is it something to do with Ottokar or Wenceslaus?

No and no.
 
Is that Bohemia, Poland, some kind of personal union of the two, or what? Is it ruled by Piasts? When did the Livonian events take place? How did Sweden escape the Kalmar union?
 
Is the POD in anyway related to the Battle of Preveza, or Barbarossa?
 
The Frenchmen in Bahia and other assorted Brazilian states looks a little odd. Are they allied with Portugal, or at odds with them?

Is the Egyptian state just a boring iteration of the Mamlukes, or is there something more interesting going on there?

What are the regional strengths of this "Republican" religious movement?
 
Is that Bohemia, Poland, some kind of personal union of the two, or what?

It's something rather more than the latter by now.

Is it ruled by Piasts?

Ha ha ha no.

When did the Livonian events take place?

Mid-16th century. They have been long in coming, though.

How did Sweden escape the Kalmar union?

Essentially as in OTL, though slightly later and with more difficulty but less bloodshed.

Is the POD in anyway related to the Battle of Preveza, or Barbarossa?

No, no. Why would you think so?

The Frenchmen in Bahia and other assorted Brazilian states looks a little odd. Are they allied with Portugal, or at odds with them?

They are at war with Portugal, and are busy trying to expel the Portuguese from rightfully French, officially claimed territory.

Is the Egyptian state just a boring iteration of the Mamlukes, or is there something more interesting going on there?

They are a somewhat less boring than usual iteration of the Mamlukes.

What are the regional strengths of this "Republican" religious movement?

Meaning, their core areas? I am working on a religious map of Europe and will post it soon anyway. It should... clear up a few things.

Is that Indian thing Mughal or Delhi or something else?

Well, for official purposes it could be considered the Sultanate of Delhi, since formally it is indistinguishable from its predecessors. A new dynasty is in charge, though, with a brand new generation of Central Asian Invaders(tm).
 
It's something rather more than the latter by now.
'More than the latter'...Is it Republican? A Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth analog? And along that line, was the Golden Bull of 1356 ever enacted for the HRE?
das said:
Ha ha ha no.
Worth a shot, man. :p
das said:
Well, for official purposes it could be considered the Sultanate of Delhi, since formally it is indistinguishable from its predecessors. A new dynasty is in charge, though, with a brand new generation of Central Asian Invaders(tm).
What's the blue gunk to the north, in Margiane and Transoxiana? And, ah, what exactly is the Iranian thing?
 
'More than the latter'...Is it Republican? A Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth analog? And along that line, was the Golden Bull of 1356 ever enacted for the HRE?

Yes. Not quite. The local equivalent was.

What's the blue gunk to the north, in Margiane and Transoxiana?

The Miranids (local equivalent of the Timurids, more or less), or rather what's left of them.

And, ah, what exactly is the Iranian thing?

Well, at this point it is more or less a standard Persian empire, with Iranian rulers and a moderately Shi'ite state religion (admittedly, the empire is currently wracked with disputes between moderate and radical mystical Shi'ite wings, and between Shi'ites and Sunnis from the newly-conquered areas). Its past is... rather more interesting.

The map below is a very rough approximation of distribution of major strains of Christianity within Europe. Differences in Islam are not depicted. Armenia and Georgia are wholly neglected, as are various other Caucasian nuances; they are not really much different from OTL and are in any case mostly irrelevant to the main questions this map is supposed to address. What is depicted is not so much the state religion (though it is in most cases apparent - exceptions might be the Catholic Transylvania and the likewise Catholic Sweden) as the local majority religion. The Roman Catholic Church (including its more autonomous subdivisions in Ruthenia and France, since they are really not all that different in most regards and are usually politically aligned with either the Pope or his more Catholic opposition at the Council) is yellow, the darker red/brown goes for various Orthodox Churches, the brighter red is for the assorted (not always allied) strains of (religious) Republicanism, the national colours are used for state churches (roughly a la Anglicanism) and the so-called "Emperor's Church" (similar, but more ambitious) respectively. England is, ofcourse, a mess and has been one for decades; its actually slowly getting better now after the previous round of religious wars.
 

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How did the Republicans become a religious movement?

What kept the Mamlukes alive?

How does the supposed HRE splitting off into the Emperor's Church work?
 
What allowed the Catholics to gain their foothold in Lithuania?
 
How did the Republicans become a religious movement?

They started out like one, then quickly gained political overtones as well. On the other hand, some people in France in particular preferred to keep the secular ideological aspects of it (in a modified, monarchist variant; Republicanism was never necessarily anti-monarchist in theory, though in practice it often ended up limiting the powers of the king and/or overthrowing non-Republican monarchs) without actually breaking with the Catholic Church.

What kept the Mamlukes alive?

They successfully rebelled against the Ottomans, actually. With help from Venice.

How does the supposed HRE splitting off into the Emperor's Church work?

Emperor Maximilian II had tried to implement far-reaching imperial reforms, including a church reform meant to somehow hijack the growing Republican movement in the HRE and use it to his own purposes while actually creating a German Church under his supreme control (and so also cutting away from the strongly pro-French Pope). It all went horribly wrong ofcourse, except in the Low Countries (and, a bit later and funnily enough, Croatia); the Empire, instead of becoming united, was torn into pieces by many-sided religious struggle, while the French moved into Lorraine. And now it's all going horribly wrong in England as well, because some dynasties never learn.

What allowed the Catholics to gain their foothold in Lithuania?

Politics. Even then, it was an even closer affair than in OTL, and Lithuanian policy towards its many Orthodox subjects - and, indeed, rulers - is more than a bit suspect. The Pope doesn't want to risk antagonising one of his key allies in Eastern Europe, though.
 
Castille is France's main ally. The Hapsburg Monarchy is providing some limited assistance to Portugal, though it has problems of its own. Aragon is sympathetic to Portugal and might or might not try to reconquer Castille in the near future, but so far its main assistance to Portugal comes in the shape of distracting French and Castillian land forces with saber-rattling and suspicious diplomatic maneuvers in Italy.
 
Someone said they had done a TL for China colonizing the new world and such before Europe. It would be 1400-1450 probably, 1405 roughly being the time when the creation of the treasure fleet began by Zhu Di (Yongle). I believe Dachs mentioned that azale, das, and EQ had done a TL about it.
 
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