The Sinister Scheme of Dr. Fu Manchu

OK ... so we're all going to do PPPs before playing our turnset then. :)

Just to note, we can always move our Palace once we get four cities if the current spot is considered 'too sub-optimal'.

I am happy to play the game any number of ways ...

Frankly, if you wanted to got on a Mongolia-style Horse Archer razing rampage through Korea, I'd be cool with that ...

... but REXing to eight cities looks workable to me too ... a couple of cities around the Floodplains, and three or four around that western 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock arc could be done. Obviously lots of Cottages, Workers, and some Chariots. No foreign borders other than Korea's is odd given the AI found us pretty quickly, and the Barb' Archer appears just at the sort of place that I would have expected the AI to have grabbed (but probably haven't if that's where Barb's are spawning).
 
The point of the city is to work 2 FP's (cottages!) for capital where capital could work another 2, working 4 good tiles in the area around capital! where capital will work 3 more good tiles (Fp farm, plains cow and GH) eventually.

...
The culture pressure is worth mentioning and I thank you both of you for it. That means I will start with monument and will have to whip it at size 2. The inner tiles are your strongest tiles and I hope we could battle the holy city culture (the city will get library too).

OK with me.

The situation with horses and defense against barbs is to say the least tricky. I would avoid selfteching archery, it's really just another waste.
More interesting is how to get the horses up and some chariots, which are sufficient against archers.
I think the western city needs to be size 2 for the flexibility, should slowly finish the warrior on FP+horses and at size 2 will finish the worker which will improve the horses.
This allows us to whip quickly another warrior if the archer will start entering cultural borders (which should be pretty close and after the TGW is build we will see big rush on our cities) making the defense of west city 3 warriors.
I initially thought about moving the 2nd warrior out, but I will probably stay on the safe side, doesn't look like we could effectively spawnbust the area, especially with so low production.

Could you, please, also consider an alternative: gamble on later barb invasion and not remove the worker (I am writing w/o access to the save and I can't check how much is already invested in the production and I am guessing about some 10 turns still to go) and use the worker to get the chariots (and later he would help in cottageing/chopping). Or, even better maybe, switch to warrior but with emphasis on city growth, then, at L2, back to worker, whip the worker, and fetch the horses again.
Those forest we will lack if we decide for Oracle and as I see it, people would still like to get the Oracle.
I agree, and I am not sure we need to rush THAT much the new settler and the Eastern city. What are the odds that WK will settle further West and closer to us when the cows and wheat (and the horses, alas) are crying out: "settle where you get us all!"? I know the AI isstupid re settling, and might be biased towards grabbing the horse, so it's a REAL gamble there, but maybe worth it?

Btw would be nice if we agree on the future! I am probably leaning on the REX side right now, where we would aim for around 8 selfbuilt cities at 1 AD since we missed the Oracle->Constr gambit.
Or we can still be on the way to Constr with Oracle->Alpha, but we will look at 1 AD+ warfare. But I think it still means we will explode with cities of our own.
I prefer the latter, meaning the H-rush. But why go to Alph in that case instead of getting Math, at least, on the way to Constr? I would also refrain from overexpanding in view of the 2 min cities (shrine+cap), possibly 3 (with the one at our SE that I plan for WK:crazyeye:) in the case where we agree on the H-rush. I'd put everything into cottageing the FPs around (adding a town or two for that purpose, of course, esp in the NE, as you might guess:lol:
 
The AI will usually trade Mathematics for Alphabet ... although it can be precious about it because of the perceived value of The Hanging Gardens. You can usually also pick up other tech's like Iron Working, Monarchy (might need a 'deal sweetener'), and Horseback Riding for Alphabet on the same turn. (I *think* that's vranasm's thinking! :shifty:).

Small point, but to avoid any confusion; a "city" is a settlement, and a "town" is a fully developed cottage.
 
yep early Alpha means early backfilling and who knows... we can do some tech war bribes, muhahaha! Always hilarious to watch what AZ manages to do with early Alpha+Aesth on deity.
Granted on MOnarch it's not needed.

If people are to horse archer rush (which I was a bit neglecting), then Oracle -> HBR is the perfect thing to do I suppose (while teching for archery after writing and oracle techs).

AI's like to grab all good settlements... WK is already at 3 cities, so he will maybe have very short phase of not building settlers, but he will inevitably settle all good spots he knows about.

I am not sold on HA rush idea btw. Much better to do cats warfare in this variant (since in BtS it just doesn't work the way here ;-)), collateral owns AI defense much better then suicide HA's, especially when facing melee troops and prot archers.

@FR
about the finishing of worker, it's due in 10T + 8T growth means 18T without any defense against barbs (except for the initial warrior).
if we grow now to size 2 in 8T, it basically means that from T9 I can ALWAYS whip warrior if the danger comes, effectively doubling our defense (btw warriors in cities are surprisingely well against barb spears)

I am not sure I want gamble over 10T that the archer will not enter borders.

edit:
or better skip the writing.
But I think this is not exactly rush map... We really have a lot of land for ourselfs (well depending if somehow some AI's are not to our north)

edit2:
oh and Oracle->Alpha is definitely much stronger then Oracle->Math, since after Alpha you can build research at that is something worth mentioning...
 
I think that the Horse Archer suggestion could work, but we don't need to go there.

They ignore Drill I, so it's only the City Garrison I that we'd have to deal with. There's also no 'apparent' Copper in Korea at this stage, so the chances of Spears are reduced by a bit. It looks as though we do have him cornered, and if we razed the Holy City and the Capital, then it leaves the north city as the only one in question to be later filled by the AI if we also razed it.

As per above, I'm very happy to go with Hwachas, which as you note is only a tech' away from Currency, where we can sustain our captured cities far better than 'semi-required' razing.
 
I think the best would be to play short turnset, up to writing and then see.

I think I should manage in those 9T to get up some cottages and either finish settler or be very close to finishing.

We have too much disruptive directions on hand.

I either am rethinking the whole Oracle situation. On our current tech rate it means around 16T of research. We run deficit research and have no commerce going yet.

We need at least those 4 cottages I mentioned sooner asap around capital + east city.

There are games where Oracle is just not optimal and I am afraid we maybe ended in such a game.

Writing opens math, alpha, col and library in capital... it's probably killer tech for us right now.
 
@Cam & V:
That's a good point - about Alpha - although it seems a bit irrelevant with regard to an H-rush, except where we might be able to get math+IW for it, from different AIs, of course. I kinda doubt the odds are very high there. AND we might get none of both. Math will get us closer to the H-rush for sure. And we can research Alph meanwhile, and do the IW+ trade a bit later, which doesn't seem to change a lot, except where AIs might research Alph too and lower our trade options.

Now, if we are talking about an HA-rush, or REXing, then, in the case of an HA rush I agree 100% on Alph from the Oracle, and in the case of REXing, I would prefer CoL.

Cam, are we REQUIRED to raze Korean cities - thanks for the subtle distinction, hope I won't forget it - that we are even thinking about razing a capital and a shrine? Even in the case of an HA-rush!

I guess we need to first get ourselves clear about rushing or REXing, if the former, then H- or HA-rush.

I am for rushing, and an H-rush.

That said I'm totally OK with REXing if most of the team, or at least all three "master-players" support it. Just let's come up with a strategic decision...for as long as it holds....

And, V, I still think that an immediate switch to warrior-cum-city-growth -> L2 switch to worker with whipping ASAP -> getting the horses and, meanwhile, producing a 2nd warrior is the best option (maybe almost the same shortterm, but better medium- to long-term. It can be reinforced with the 1st warrior going to that forested hill to have a better view on the E-NE and distract potential invaders.

edit: This was written before I could read V's latest post. What is in there seems to reinforce again the need for deciding on REX vs rush. Rush without Oracle seems inadequate, REXing might work w/o the Oracle, it seems, on fps+cottages+financial.
 
ugh you're sure that the Korean city needs to be razed?

from wording "army and governor" replaced it hears to me that we just have to capture all cities and eliminate WK as leader from the game...

maybe some clarification is needed!

Ah you meant to grow to size 2, whip worker into warrior? well I will look into it... but since we have no improved food tiles the regrowth will be ... too slow...
 
Sorry ... 'no', we're not required to raze Korean cities to meet our variant, we can take-and-keep them.

Why I'm suggesting that we (assess whether it's best to...) raze them with the suggested Horse Archer strategy is simply to keep city maintenance under control. I don't like the placement of the Holy City, and the Capital doesn't look too great at this point.

vranasm is proposing Hwachas as the foundation of our attack, and as Construction is near-by to Currency, we can probably afford to keep Korean cities by securing that tech' as well (Currency means lots of stuff including; extra :traderoute:, can build 'Wealth', can trade for :gold:).
 
Ah you meant to grow to size 2, whip worker into warrior? well I will look into it... but since we have no improved food tiles the regrowth will be ... too slow...

Yap, still, this delay would be more than compensated by the worker working cottages, and the chariot, that could also be whipped when and if BA comes close... (adding a farmed foodplain or two would also speed up the growth of the Bay, but this is not the idea, seems better to use the worker - after horsing around - for cottage-building around the capital)
 
Sorry ... 'no', we're not required to raze Korean cities to meet our variant, we can take-and-keep them.

Why I'm suggesting that we (assess whether it's best to...) raze them with the suggested Horse Archer strategy is simply to keep city maintenance under control. I don't like the placement of the Holy City, and the Capital doesn't look too great at this point.

I am sure that there are hidden gems around Seoul, and razing a shrine seems a no-no from diplo-, happi- and $- (in short: any) point of view...

vranasm is proposing Hwachas as the foundation of our attack, and as Construction is near-by to Currency, we can probably afford to keep Korean cities by securing that tech' as well (Currency means lots of stuff including; extra :traderoute:, can build 'Wealth', can trade for :gold:).

Even more happy to oblige!!:D
 
^^ it still feels risky

ok... Can I get confirmation for short TS this evening 9T up to finishing writing? We will be much more clever at that point ;-).

There is the odd chance that WK gets Alpha and that would change our strategy a lot.
 
Please proceed with playing as far as I'm concerned.

You can take 15 turns if you want them.
 
Please proceed with playing as far as I'm concerned.

You can take 15 turns if you want them.

hmm and what I will tech in those 6 turns? :) no - no... I am nice to my fellow players... writing looks like good target for my TS.
Then we will decide what to do next ;-)

we could alternatively do half TS report with me playing full 15 after some discussion of the situation ofc.
 
hmm and what I will tech in those 6 turns? :) no - no... I am nice to my fellow players... writing looks like good target for my TS.
Then we will decide what to do next ;-)

we could alternatively do half TS report with me playing full 15 after some discussion of the situation ofc.

And this is VERY nice of you, too!

I think your getting to WRIT and posting the save with your ideas and a word on major events, if any, would be perfect.
 
While vranasm is unleashing his diabolical scheme, I thought that I'd just make a quick comment on our rivals;

  • Churchill will not plot a war against us at 'Pleased' or 'Friendly', will greatly respond to us if we share a war, and likewise if we adopt his favourite civic while he too has adopted it; Nationalism. He is not particularly concerned on our choice of State Religion.
  • Mao Zedong will not plot a war against us at 'Friendly', will greatly respond to us if we adopt his favourite civic while he too has adopted it; State Property. He is not particularly concerned on our choice of State Religion. He's quick to reach his "We fear you are becoming too advanced" threshold.
  • Wang Kon will not plot a war against us at 'Pleased' or 'Friendly'. His favourite civic is the Caste System. He is not particularly concerned on our choice of State Religion. During the game he may reach his moderate "We fear you are becoming too advanced" threshold. madscientist's notes on Wang Kon (and Fu Manchu).
  • Gandhi will not plot a war against us at 'Pleased' or 'Friendly', will greatly respond to us if we adopt his favourite civic while he too has adopted it; Universal Suffrage. He is not particularly concerned if we share a war.
  • Roosevelt will not plot a war against us at 'Friendly'. He will greatly respond to us if we adopt his favourite civic while he too has adopted it; Mercantilism. He is not particularly concerned on our choice of State Religion. madscientist's notes on Roosevelt.
  • Stalin will not plot a war against us at 'Friendly'. He will greatly respond to us if we adopt his favourite civic while he too has adopted it; State Property. He is not particularly concerned on our choice of State Religion. He's quick to reach his "We fear you are becoming too advanced" threshold.
Therefore;

Those who will plot war at 'Pleased': Mao Zedong, Roosevelt, and Stalin.

Most leaders are sensitive to shared civics and relatively less concerned about State Religion choices.

Only Mao Zedong and Stalin are likely to have WFYABTA issues (iNoTechTradeThreshold of 5). Wang Kon is somewhat more accommodating (iNoTechTradeThreshold of 10).​
 
played first 8 turns of mine turnset, if no one minds I would like to play at least 5 more eventually.

I think this turnset changed things a lot in my mind and I think I would agree with HA rush right now (on strategy further later)

I have some good news and some bad news and one mistake on my part (which I am sorry about).

turn report:

T0: readjust works (worker to forest, worker in cap, city 2 warrior for growth)

T1:
mao settles his city very close to us
Spoiler :



yeah right... on one of the best spots on the whole map! He is dead man from now on.

We got hindu spread too (no switch!)
Spoiler :




T2 worker starts chopping (the chop will finish with worker, so the OF goes into settler)

T3 capital pops borders

T4
found US borders
Spoiler :




T5 zzz

T6
warriors wins battle with barb archer on forested hill (I moved there on purpose) we got propomoted I choose woodsman
Spoiler :




both workers start chopping settler

T7 zzz

T8
we got writing 1T sooner hooray! (Ok I don't understand why we worked 1f2h tile in capital over 4f1c tile, so switched and got writing 1T sooner... nice touch, I even chose another FP over GH since it didn't influence anything)
Spoiler :



Since we got writing I thought that's nice to open borders with everyone (my mistake sorry) to start getting diplo points, after OB with Roosevelt and Ghandhi I realized that we didn't talk about it, so immedietaly stopped! sorry about it. I hope no one will mind and we will open borders with the rest ;-).

Settler is due in 1T, city grew to size 2, almost perfect timing!!

Ok now I provide final screen with some notes about the future progress of worker works
Spoiler :




As for the strategy.
I think Mao delegated himself as first victim of our war lust and punishment! NO ONE SETTLES MY LAND WITHOUT MY APPROVAL! i see that northern city as big insult!

So i would suggest that we do Oracle->HBR with techs medi->ph->hunting->archery
and do 3 (4?) city breakout.
While we will prepare the war we can tech Math+Currency.

I hope that the layed out cottages will help greatly with war preparations.

Getting out rax+stables will be tricky (and monument in city 3 of course)
 
played first 8 turns of mine turnset, if no one minds I would like to play at least 5 more eventually.

I think this turnset changed things a lot in my mind and I think I would agree with HA rush right now (on strategy further later))

OK with me, sublject to your explaining a bit what were the reasons for your changing your mind, esp form a proponent of an H-rush to a proponent of an HA-rush.

Since we got writing I thought that's nice to open borders with everyone (my mistake sorry) to start getting diplo points, after OB with Roosevelt and Ghandhi I realized that we didn't talk about it, so immedietaly stopped! sorry about it. I hope no one will mind and we will open borders with the rest ;-).

No big deal with me, the non-discussing of this I mean, but a nice insight that diplo points might be worthier than the gold that goes into everybody else's coffers...

As for the strategy.
I think Mao delegated himself as first victim of our war lust and punishment! NO ONE SETTLES MY LAND WITHOUT MY APPROVAL! i see that northern city as big insult!

You'd better think twice when you're dealing with the Chinese, even if you are not Korea!;)... anyway, I reserve my right to comment on this, as I need to check the statistics and think a bit after looking at what will WK be while we war with Mao.

So i would suggest that we do Oracle->HBR with techs medi->ph->hunting->archery
and do 3 (4?) city breakout.....

ph... ph?!? Ph?!?!?!?!?! There is ONE doctor, and this is Dr MF, no other ph, ph.d's or whatever!!!!:lol:

While we will prepare the war we can tech Math+Currency......

Wait a minute! Where are our :nuke:?! You talking about war prep?! With warriors at hand?! Com'on, guy! You must be kiddin'!!! :crazyeye:

I hope that the layed out cottages will help greatly with war preparations.......

Sure! Cottages, my a...! Throw a cottage or two on Guangzhou, or Shanghai, or Peking, or that Pekinese...:p

Getting out rax+stables will be tricky (and monument in city 3 of course)

Yah,yah ...they all start talkin' pig'n English, man, but that's when they don't want you to understand what they are REALLY talking about... now rax, later rex, then you find out they are taliking kings... We are still democracy, man, erh, well, Manchucracy, or Fucracy...whatever...:cool:

Make love, not war, ehr, while you still can... or can't...whatever....:confused:
 
Checked Mao. Maybe not so risky - the HA-rush, I mean - after all. I'd rather prefer to set up a choke point for FDR at 4N of the eastern horses than to spend resources on war prep, but you know better, I guess....
 
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