Ghandi, Monty, and Elizabeth were all eventually able to be bribed into Taoism because enough of their people followed the religion. The only one who was forced with spies and might switch back still is, I feel, Ghenghis.
SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Ya, the next AP vote should show up T179. It popped up at the start of T169 for me and was very annoying. I couldn't look around to see if the South Witches had Taoism and I was figuring on an easy assign city vote. Didn't want to bring the South in accidentally.
bcool
Deity
I guess you have to turn it on in buffy.
Oh, I forgot to mention it, but the East Witches offered to do peace with us a few turns ago.
So if we want to do some kind of small ceasefire(not peace treaty) to move assets around and then start the war up again, we probably can. I kept the war going because we were winning every fight and the +shared war bonus is nice.
So if we want to do some kind of small ceasefire(not peace treaty) to move assets around and then start the war up again, we probably can. I kept the war going because we were winning every fight and the +shared war bonus is nice.
- Joined
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I'd like to suggest that we have our mounted units plus any other attacking units and three Galleons rendezvous in the Wicked Witch of the West's Teotihuacan one turn before the attack on The Wizard of Oz. The reason is mounted units can travel on roads 6 plots per turn where Galleons can move either 4 plots per turn without promotions or 5 plots per turn with Flanking I Navigation I. The deadline for the mounted units can be a bit later than before, by 1-2 turns depending on original location.
Assuming we want to commence the attack on The Wizard of Oz in t190, Galleons and the mounted units must be in Teotihuacan's rendezvous plot by the end of t189.
There are two travel plans, A (Unpromoted Galleons) or B (Flanking I Navigation I Galleons):
AKn1) Mounted units will have a milestone plot in Isengard or 1-NW of Ayodhya where they must arrive or be built by the end of t182. They have 24 plots by Road and 4 turns to move to the rendezous plot 1-W of New Work by the end of t186.
AKn2) Mounted units will have a milestone plot 1-W of New York where they must arrive by the end of t186. They have 18 plots by Road and 3 turns to move to the rendezous plot 1-W of Teotihuacan by the end of t189.
AG) Unpromoted Galleons must be positioned 1-W of Teotihuacan, so the remaining distance to 1-E of Emerald City can be traversed in a single turn and the military units can attack Emerald City in the same turn, assuming they all embarked on the Galleons in the previous through Teotihuacan. New York must complete the third Galleon in t183, ready to move on t184. It will arrive at the Teotihuacan's rendezvous plot six turns later at the end of t189.
BKn1) Mounted units will have a milestone plot 1-E of Isengard or in Ayodhya where they must arrive or be built by the end of t182. They have 24 plots by Road and 4 turns to move to the rendezous plot 1-N of New Work by the end of t186.
BKn2) Mounted units will have a milestone plot 1-N of New York where they must arrive by the end of t186. They have 18 plots by Road and 3 turns to move to the rendezous plot 1-W of Teotihuacan by the end of t189.
BG) Flanking I Navigation I Galleons can start in Teotihuacan and also make the trip there a bit faster. New York must complete the third Flanking I Navigation I Galleon in t185, ready to move on t186. It will arrive at the Teotihuacan's rendezvous plot four turns later at the end of t189.
Sun Tzu Wu
Assuming we want to commence the attack on The Wizard of Oz in t190, Galleons and the mounted units must be in Teotihuacan's rendezvous plot by the end of t189.
There are two travel plans, A (Unpromoted Galleons) or B (Flanking I Navigation I Galleons):
AKn1) Mounted units will have a milestone plot in Isengard or 1-NW of Ayodhya where they must arrive or be built by the end of t182. They have 24 plots by Road and 4 turns to move to the rendezous plot 1-W of New Work by the end of t186.
AKn2) Mounted units will have a milestone plot 1-W of New York where they must arrive by the end of t186. They have 18 plots by Road and 3 turns to move to the rendezous plot 1-W of Teotihuacan by the end of t189.
AG) Unpromoted Galleons must be positioned 1-W of Teotihuacan, so the remaining distance to 1-E of Emerald City can be traversed in a single turn and the military units can attack Emerald City in the same turn, assuming they all embarked on the Galleons in the previous through Teotihuacan. New York must complete the third Galleon in t183, ready to move on t184. It will arrive at the Teotihuacan's rendezvous plot six turns later at the end of t189.
BKn1) Mounted units will have a milestone plot 1-E of Isengard or in Ayodhya where they must arrive or be built by the end of t182. They have 24 plots by Road and 4 turns to move to the rendezous plot 1-N of New Work by the end of t186.
BKn2) Mounted units will have a milestone plot 1-N of New York where they must arrive by the end of t186. They have 18 plots by Road and 3 turns to move to the rendezous plot 1-W of Teotihuacan by the end of t189.
BG) Flanking I Navigation I Galleons can start in Teotihuacan and also make the trip there a bit faster. New York must complete the third Flanking I Navigation I Galleon in t185, ready to move on t186. It will arrive at the Teotihuacan's rendezvous plot four turns later at the end of t189.
Sun Tzu Wu
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Excellent Turn Set Kaitzilla!
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
- Joined
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A Holy War would require 430 of 694 votes; at least that is the required vote count now.
Together Dorthy and the North Witches would have enough votes (See F8 Members tab) I assume they would vote for a holy war, since they would have something to gain. The Western Witches are too far away from the Eastern Witches, so a war between them could not be sustained without Espionage, Bribes, etc.
We may want to check Espionage switch mission in a test game for adverse effects,
Sun Tzu Wu
Together Dorthy and the North Witches would have enough votes (See F8 Members tab) I assume they would vote for a holy war, since they would have something to gain. The Western Witches are too far away from the Eastern Witches, so a war between them could not be sustained without Espionage, Bribes, etc.
We may want to check Espionage switch mission in a test game for adverse effects,
Sun Tzu Wu
bcool
Deity
Perhaps we don't want to spread taoism to Gandhi just yet. He seems happy enough in the religion as it is and he willingly switched over in a trade as Kaitzilla said. If we do give him more votes he could easily vote against another holy war declaration.
I think we want to send our missionaries to Genghis. He might flip back and presumably will vote for a holy war as STW speculates above.
I think we want to send our missionaries to Genghis. He might flip back and presumably will vote for a holy war as STW speculates above.
bcool
Deity
divert knights from ragnar defense to asoka offense?
I think we can divert a knight or 2 from attacking Ragnar's stack and send them over to Asoka's lands to help protect the super medic perhaps and accelerate the conquest of Asoka's cities.
If we kill Ragnar's stack over 2 turns I think it is okay.
need to reevaluate beg status. I think it makes sense to erase older begs if you make newer ones.
don't need to worry about north and west liking south more
Now that we share the same religion as the north and west, I don't think we need to worry about dragging the south into the holy war. In fact I think it makes sense to spread taoism to the south witches and drag them into the war with east witches. If they can capture a city for themselves that would be nice. we want them growing and we want them to weaken ragnar for us.
I think we can divert a knight or 2 from attacking Ragnar's stack and send them over to Asoka's lands to help protect the super medic perhaps and accelerate the conquest of Asoka's cities.
If we kill Ragnar's stack over 2 turns I think it is okay.
need to reevaluate beg status. I think it makes sense to erase older begs if you make newer ones.
don't need to worry about north and west liking south more
Now that we share the same religion as the north and west, I don't think we need to worry about dragging the south into the holy war. In fact I think it makes sense to spread taoism to the south witches and drag them into the war with east witches. If they can capture a city for themselves that would be nice. we want them growing and we want them to weaken ragnar for us.
Most of Gandhi's cities have Taoism now. He will likely spread it more on his own. Kaitzilla was curious how all the spread happened. A while back I had suggested our first missionary to go west (I think he got killed by barbs) go to Gandhi for exactly this reason. He appears to be going for culture and is spreading it himself.
In my experience, most AI that are switched into a religion other that one that they have been running most of the game will switch back, especially of they have founded a religion. They are a little more likely to stay in a different religion as described above if the religion they were converted to is the AP. I have no code data to support this. As I stated this is what I believe based on my experience. I expect Monty and Gandhi to switch to their early religion (hinduism, I believe). Elizabeth may stay in Taoism since she was very late to convert to Buddhism.
When Monty and Gandhi switch back to Hinduism, their relations with Mansa may go up between +5 and +8, while giving a negative diplo hit for our "heathen religion". We need to control when they come back to Taoism is such a way that they cannot switch out when we need their votes.
The south witches in our Holy War could be devastating. There have to be some free religion lovers out there. We will likely be having to use spies to kick somebody back into Theocracy. If Mansa, Shaka and Gandhi want free religion, would could have some voting troubles. Fake Monty is Mansa, and he often likes free religion once it is available.
mabraham
Deity
Sure. Also, retreating inside Indra and allowing Ragnar to come one tile further north (presumably) will probably break even on the time it takes to get knights that kill Ragnar's stack to go do something useful to the East. They get to heal inside a city, and we don't have to build a road under the stack of knights.
Cities swapped from West to South that we were not going to capture don't matter because it doesn't affect the world population, and so the number of votes required to win. However if we let South join the war, they will likely snipe off Cimmerian and that lone Asoka tundra city, which we would like to regard as our free pickings later in the war.
If bringing South in is the difference between us killing Asoka in time, or not, then we want them in. We can leave a knight or two with their stack to see if we can sneak-capture any cities they leave weak. However, even with gunpowder coming, Asoka's collection of units is pretty puny. He has to build those muskets from scratch, of course. So I think we're on track to kill Asoka and might want those "free picking" cities. On the other hand, if Ragnar's north is bottled up by South, we might be able to jump a force across the water and snipe a large city or two from Ragnar just before the vote. Tough.
We don't actually want South growing their cities, because we need to grow about 1.62 people for every person they grow, in order to preserve our 62%.
mabraham
Deity
We did lose one missionary, but I got one through, and that's how Gandhi started spreading Taoism, because of OR.
The value of a religion is the total population of cities that have that religion, multiplied by (3+x)/2 where x is the total value of gold, research and culture generated by buildings present in the holy city if owned by that AI. If owned by a teammate, the multiplier is (4+x)/3. The existing state religion gets a further multiplier of 4/3 when considering the best religion. This is all in CvPlayerAI.cpp, but the code is pretty opaque. I cannot see any way that the AP, UofS or that gold-for-buildings wonder from Divine Right affect the choice. Spiritual only affects the ability to convert, not the decision to convert.
Hey... I remember there was a factor for favourite religion, but it's not here. Hmm, my SDK source is for 1.61, which is out of date and I can't find a current one...
Anyway, Monty and Gandhi will keep wanting to go back to Hinduism unless we pretty much saturate Taoism, and maybe still even then.
Yeah, timing a last tech gift and/or spy hit for T191 or so will be a good idea.
Defense of Indra:
Offense on Asoka:
Airships:
Worth noting is that they're researching gunpowder at the moment, so in 6 turns, the defence is going to get a little tougher.
I'll post this for the moment, while I go look at the domestic front and see where these wizard killing units are coming from, so that I can work out whether this war is likely to see reinforcements in the near future. There are two units in Fur city for the moment, and given Ragnar is tied up, I suggest pulling the longbowman towards the Asoka front and put him to work down there, potentially defending Varanasi or something like that when he gets there.
Spoiler :
Offense on Asoka:
Spoiler :
Airships:
Spoiler :
Worth noting is that they're researching gunpowder at the moment, so in 6 turns, the defence is going to get a little tougher.
I'll post this for the moment, while I go look at the domestic front and see where these wizard killing units are coming from, so that I can work out whether this war is likely to see reinforcements in the near future. There are two units in Fur city for the moment, and given Ragnar is tied up, I suggest pulling the longbowman towards the Asoka front and put him to work down there, potentially defending Varanasi or something like that when he gets there.
Draft PPP, but getting less draft
Technology: Mass Media now. After that Gunpowder (if no one else is learning it by then!), and Military Tradition.
Tech trading: Trade nationalism to West & South for money & divine right. Trade Divine right to north for money. Hope that someone decides to get gunpowder for us.
Civic Changes: Switch to Nationhood & Free Market. T178: Switch to Bureacracy+Universal Suffrage.
Golden Age:Will last until T182, but will hopefully get extended by the Taj Mahal. This is about to turn into a Taj Mahal race, but we should have a mild headstart so *should* be ok. Losing the race would cause potentially critical delay in the UN, but not much we can do about it.
Great People: GP farm about to pop a 90% merchant in a couple of turns (T176). Merchant boards that same turn a galleon waiting outside TrojanHorse. Galleon sets sail immediately, and unloads merchant T177 in Hastings. Merchant starts walking immediately, and runs trade mission in Cantebury on T178.
Phants City
Spoiler :
Silver City
Spoiler :
GP farm
Spoiler :
Stone City
Spoiler :
Washington
Spoiler :
Marble City
Spoiler :
Culture Bridge
Spoiler :
Gems City
Spoiler :
Sheep City
Spoiler :
Isengard
Spoiler :
square would be more efficient than the spy as we'd get 9 extra money from the overproduction? Or do we still need spy points desperatelyFur City
Spoiler :
Indra...
Spoiler :
Ayodhya
Spoiler :
Madurai
Spoiler :
Dead Wizard City
Spoiler :
War Plans
Blimp plan
Move the Isengard blimps to Ayodhya & Madurai this turn, and the two new blimps to Ayodhya next turn.
3 Madurai blimps this turn hit the 2 healthy units in the Ragnar stack on Indra, and the stray Ragnar knight out in the open that's threatening to join the Ragnar doomed doomstack.
Indra defence
Still waiting decision from tribe
Asoka Offence: Operation Blitzkrieg
Units from Madurai area (including Supermedic) + 1-2 knights from Ragnar defense hit the road and assault Patali.
Chariot Medic exempted from above and sticks around Madurai. He's not needed in Patali, and not needed west (as knight medic out there already), so he'll stay in Madurai for the time being to be flexible.
After the knights have finished beating up Ragnar and move on Varanasi, either chariot/knight will likely remain in Ragnar area for future combats, and the other one will go with the Varanasi attack force. Which way round will depend on health of knight-medic.
The Patali attack will attempt to move on Madras when possible. Another stack will be formed if/when possible and to take Calcutta & Kolhapur.
An assault team formed on the mainland will hit Hyperabad after landing from the sea next to it. Reboarding of boat, and moving on Bombay.
I've probably explained it badly in my haste to write it up at the same time as looking like I'm actually doing work this afternoon, so refer to bcool post for more details.
Wizard fleet
Launch date: T181
Last upgrade date in New York is T182.
Last departure from Isengard: T180 (potential upgrade), T181(no upgrade possible)
Tentative earmarking of units: T173-T180 units out of Isengard (8 units) + T181 knight out of Isengard.
Units will be swapped out of above list and replaced by suitable (promotion-wise) experienced units from the Ragnar slaughter. Early units out of the Isengard production chain to pick off Ragnar units if that will leave them sufficient time to heal and get in position.
Option of losing 'the backup attack and UN pullout options' by delaying above dates by 1 turn. Obviously must have team consensus to risk enacting this protocol.
Spy Plan
Mostly reactionary. 3 Spies to head to Asoka territory and get in position for revolts when assault stacks arrive.
Other spies (a couple are now on the various build queues) to head to other players and prepare to either force them back in line for religion, or steal tech if they refuse to trade something we want (Gunpowder), or whatever else may arise.
Stopping conditions (list incomplete):
GP out of GP farm isn't a merchant, as we need to stop and evaluate our budget.
War goes badly
Diplomacy takes an unexpected turn
Voting:
Apostolic vote:
- Pause game if city assignment an option and consult team regarding picking up an extra +1 relations.
- Otherwise Holy War if an option.
- Otherwise, probably won't matter much.
Missionary plan
Use existing missionaries to convert cities. 2 x Ghandi, and 1 gifted to Gengis.
No other missionaries currently on the queues
Diplomacy plan
Will grant any tech/gold/resource request to North and West Witches.
Will trade for wine
Will refuse any demands by South Witches and East Witches
Will beg for 40g when I'm about to run out of money(to leave as long as possible for the beg timer)
Draft plan
The following cities can be drafted:
Fur City (2-3 times), Culture Bridge (2-3 times), Sheep City (2-3 times), Marble (2-3 times), Gems, Silver, Isengard, Phants
Still needed: Worker actions, but don't have access to game atm, so will have to wait until tonight.
bcool
Deity
I'd rather you traded electricity for divine right. I think we might as well not trade nationalism and bring more players into the Taj Mahal race.
If the target to win is
I wouldn't trade away nationalism unnecessarily until we are finished with Taj Mahal.
Yes the plan is to run a trade mission. We probably will need gold T178, so you might not have time to run the trade mission anywhere except Trojan Horse. If you set up a boat you might be able to run the mission one of Elizabeth's larger cities but I'm not sure how much more the trade mission would be worth.
With the influx of units from drafting I think a galleon here after the airship would be more useful and Phants lacks a barracks. Then build wealth/research
I think silver should steal the gold mine from Stone, and give up its grass workshop. I think maybe Treb, Treb, Knight, Knight is better. With 42 hammers output it can build another Treb in 2 turns and then maybe with an engineer instead of a lake it could finish the 1st knight after the 2nd treb in 2 turns as well.
edit: if the war is going as I expect it will then I think we can build wealth/research instead of the last 2 knights.
research is going to be an issue in your turn set. We want to average
I would give up the gold too and take Silver's grass workshop. This allows Stone not to starve as quickly.
I doubt the stable is necessary. I'd rather have another treb. You are going to lose significant hammers going off of bureaucracy here. I think Trebs here instead of knights.
You will want to set up a build on T177-8 to get to within a hammer or 2 of finishing, then you want on T179 to finish it with max OF. I expect Washington to build the UN T180, T181, and to finish it in 2 turns you need max OF on T179.
You also want Washington to continue growing a little faster than +3 food/turn, so that it will 18 pop when we want to use the Great Engineer. We need Washington to be 18 pop by T181 so we get the most out of the great engineer and can use him on T181.
While we still have representation I would not turn off the merchants. I would switch them to scientists! We need research desperately I think. Once we switch to universal sufferage you can turn off the specialists (except the spy) for coasts.
spy is better than a late catapult I think.
I'd rather have Treb, Treb, Knight
I agree with the stable here.
I think another galleon is better here after the current one. We want boats to galleon chain units down to Ragnar near the end of the war. Plus with drafting there will be a heavy demand for boats.
I think we want the spy at least until we switch to universal sufferage. The espionage will be very useful for revolts in the eastern witches cities.Isengard
Spoiler :
I think perhaps a galleon here too after the catapult
I'm not sure about these small cities, but Madurai has 3 forests it could chop and Indra... has 1. I think we need a workboat somewhere. mabraham had some suggestions for these cities.
I think we want to spread taoism here especially if we are going to try and culturally steal those forests.
Still needed: Worker actions, Spy plan, Missionary plan, diplomacy guidelines, Wizard fleet launch date + earmarking of units, and other things that I'm too tired to think of atm!
Hopefully that should be enough to get discussions going. I'm off to bed
bcool
Deity
Here is my suggested war plan.
I've split up the forces 5 teams
The plan for each team is shown in the image in more detail but the summary is...
I don't think there will be any problem finishing off Asoka by T189, so the more we can do to accelerate the wizard killing and the diplo vote the better in my opinion. Even if we have set backs and the city revolts don't go well I think we can do it.
In fact we probably can capture a few of ragnar's cities as well.
After looking at the details here I think we can push up the win target to T189. But I'm not sure if we can get Mass Media and the UN built fast enough.
So T173 switch to nationhood and free Market. T178 switch to Universal sufferage and Bureaucracy perhaps. I think we can manage with 15 drafted mace.
Switching back to Bureaucracy should help both our research and help build the UN faster.
I've split up the forces 5 teams
- Black Team (units in Madurai and 2 knights taken from the Ragnar defense force)
- Green Team (drafted maces and trebs currently in the mainland and trebs being produced there this turn)
- Pink Team (knights that have recovered from destroying Ragnar's stacks plus a few more knights produced in Isengard and perhaps Gems, and a 1-2 treb + 1-2 drafted macemen)
- Red Team (knights produced later from Isengard, Gems, other mainland cities plus later drafted maces and later produced trebs)
- Yellow Team (the 3 spies we have waiting in Marble City)
The plan for each team is shown in the image in more detail but the summary is...
- Black team takes Pataliputra T176 and then Madras T182?
- Green Team takes Hyperbad T177? and then Bombay T181? (supported by 1 spy from yellow team)
- Pink Team takes Vararasi T180 supported by 2 spies from Yellow Team
- Red Team takes Kolhapur T184? and Calcutta T184?
Spoiler :
I don't think there will be any problem finishing off Asoka by T189, so the more we can do to accelerate the wizard killing and the diplo vote the better in my opinion. Even if we have set backs and the city revolts don't go well I think we can do it.
In fact we probably can capture a few of ragnar's cities as well.
After looking at the details here I think we can push up the win target to T189. But I'm not sure if we can get Mass Media and the UN built fast enough.
So T173 switch to nationhood and free Market. T178 switch to Universal sufferage and Bureaucracy perhaps. I think we can manage with 15 drafted mace.
Switching back to Bureaucracy should help both our research and help build the UN faster.
Cool. You guys seem to have the war plans well in hand!
The best help I can be is to just add in the thoughts on my mind on T173 since I was pretty dialed in to the war.
First was to attack Ragnar's stack from 1S of Indraprasthra T173 and move 2 workers onto it for a road t174. I would have roaded that tile earlier but someone blew up our horse supply.
I considered if letting Ragnar's stack of doom move into our culture might get us double xp points towards great general with Great Wall bonus on T174, but then I figured it would be disasterous if it went west over the river or southwest back to the way it came to enlarge the stack. Staying in place would also be bad because all the units would heal. The units are about as hurt as they can be without a suicide treb, so we might as well destroy them. The flank attacks should wipe out all the siege in short order, so we don't need to blimp bomb those.
The super medic can stay behind and heal that CRIII mace T173, then move next to our injured knight stack because it has a range of healing T174, then take the full hp knights with it back to Madurai T175, who can charge east T176.
Knight reinforcements from Isengarde and a few drafted macemen can hold down Ragnar who gets blimp bombed as he marches up the coast again.
When blimps bomb they gain vision like reconaissance of the surrounding area too!
Without gunpowder castles are a nightmare. Units are double hp because of that building, before other bonus' even. Sure hope we have some muskets or lucky spies or Asoka doesn't build more castles. Not sure what accuracy trebs can do to reduce their defense.
Pataliputra remains the key strategic city. Its fall opens up the road into Asokas land a little more, and destroying that iron renders Ragnar unable to build more knights or pikes! His pressure on us will ease and we can send more help to beat Asoka.
City vision is nice, but there is an elephant and some other unit hiding in that fog north of Pataliputra. A recon blimp of the area or a bombing mission near there would help light it up. I should have put a note down but forgot.
We still need fleet superiority south of our mainland. Hopefully those galleons and blimp can take those 2 caravels near Marble City out soon.
I'm not sure how safe it is to start taking galleons through our Madurai fort to attack Ragnar's lands or Asoka's southern coastline. There are some caravels down there.
I should have moved the galleons with the caravel into our culture to heal faster, but was unsure which direction they would ultimately need to go.
If anyone can post some close up screenshots of the front lines that would help. I am out of time to do it for a while. If you guys think we can beat Asoka without muskets, then Mass Media first is probably best. There is a newly constructed 4th spy in our mainland somewhere who was intended for Asoka I think. We also have a spy heading west to flip Ghandi if he decides to be annoying.
The best help I can be is to just add in the thoughts on my mind on T173 since I was pretty dialed in to the war.
First was to attack Ragnar's stack from 1S of Indraprasthra T173 and move 2 workers onto it for a road t174. I would have roaded that tile earlier but someone blew up our horse supply.
I considered if letting Ragnar's stack of doom move into our culture might get us double xp points towards great general with Great Wall bonus on T174, but then I figured it would be disasterous if it went west over the river or southwest back to the way it came to enlarge the stack. Staying in place would also be bad because all the units would heal. The units are about as hurt as they can be without a suicide treb, so we might as well destroy them. The flank attacks should wipe out all the siege in short order, so we don't need to blimp bomb those.
The super medic can stay behind and heal that CRIII mace T173, then move next to our injured knight stack because it has a range of healing T174, then take the full hp knights with it back to Madurai T175, who can charge east T176.
Knight reinforcements from Isengarde and a few drafted macemen can hold down Ragnar who gets blimp bombed as he marches up the coast again.
When blimps bomb they gain vision like reconaissance of the surrounding area too!
Without gunpowder castles are a nightmare. Units are double hp because of that building, before other bonus' even. Sure hope we have some muskets or lucky spies or Asoka doesn't build more castles. Not sure what accuracy trebs can do to reduce their defense.
Pataliputra remains the key strategic city. Its fall opens up the road into Asokas land a little more, and destroying that iron renders Ragnar unable to build more knights or pikes! His pressure on us will ease and we can send more help to beat Asoka.
City vision is nice, but there is an elephant and some other unit hiding in that fog north of Pataliputra. A recon blimp of the area or a bombing mission near there would help light it up. I should have put a note down but forgot.
We still need fleet superiority south of our mainland. Hopefully those galleons and blimp can take those 2 caravels near Marble City out soon.
I'm not sure how safe it is to start taking galleons through our Madurai fort to attack Ragnar's lands or Asoka's southern coastline. There are some caravels down there.
I should have moved the galleons with the caravel into our culture to heal faster, but was unsure which direction they would ultimately need to go.
If anyone can post some close up screenshots of the front lines that would help. I am out of time to do it for a while. If you guys think we can beat Asoka without muskets, then Mass Media first is probably best. There is a newly constructed 4th spy in our mainland somewhere who was intended for Asoka I think. We also have a spy heading west to flip Ghandi if he decides to be annoying.
mabraham
Deity
I think it is better to move our airships in Isengard up to the center of the action (Madurai and Ayodya) this turn than it is to bomb siege units that will likely die to flanking attacks anyway. Bomb with the 3 in Madurai so long as they're hitting non-siege units. A strike on Ragnar's laggard knight is also sound.
I'm keen to hit Patali because it doesn't have a castle, and when you capture a city you get a turn or two of grace before their culture from other cities re-expands. We'll have vision on those side cities and we may well be able to use knights on their roads to capture a second city immediately (maybe even Bombay - I expect the desert iron will have no culture on it for a turn or two, and Bombay has about two maces defending). I'm expecting that defending Patali will be a formality - Asoka has basically no troops left.
I like the general approach in bc's plan.
As above, I think there is a window now to move the airships in Isengard up to the front where they can be more useful for longer.
Yup, hence wanting to snipe cities quickly if they are on offer, before he whips muskets.
Yeah, move the longbow down.
bcool
Deity
Updated, new target to win is T189 (17 turns from now)
Overview
Okay there are 3 competing goals now that we want to finish simultaneously if possible
I now think a target of 17 turns (or winning on T189) to meet each of these goals is what we should shoot for. This will tie or beat any team currently on the scoreboard who seems likely to have finished.
1) tech to Mass Media and build the UN and trigger the votes for election & diplo victory
2) organize the votes to win election and diplo victory
thru
1) teching to Mass Media details
Should we tech to gunpowder ourselves before Mass Media? (details in spoiler) NO
(5616 to finish Mass Media)
After switch to nationalism on T173 (current turn) our research will be ~580 displayed (plus the value of the new trade routes * multipliers maybe 40 research?) So maybe we will have 620 per turn. i want to try and finish Mass Media in 7 turns. This means we need to average 668 research per turn. So we might have to build research in a few cities and switch back to bureaucracy on T178. I also think the merchants in GPFarm will need to become scientists during the last 2 turns of represenation, then they can work coasts or become merchants if gold is still a problem. I suppose free religion is out of the question since that would jeopardize our relations with the other AI.
Washington must be 18 pop by T181 at the latest so Great engineer produces... 500 + 20*18 = 860
Washington without bureacracy does about 29*1.25 =36 per turn
with bureacracy 29*1.75 = 50 per turn
We want to finish the UN in 2 turns. If we max OF the turn before we start the UN, we can do ~100 hammers then 50 the next turn. (assuming we are switching back to bureaucracy T178.
UN election for security general is the turn after the UN is built.
UN 1st vote is 7 turns after the turn UN is shown to be finished.
For example, If the UN shows it will be finished at the end of T181 then the 1st vote will be selected and voted on on T188, and we will get the results T189.
(Recently confirmed with testing)
(hopefully steal or trade for gunpowder at some point)
start Taj Mahal T173 to hopefully finish by T180 (most likely in stone)
Start Mass Media
Mass Media finish end of T179 (if we want to finish in 7 turns we must average 668 displayed science)
Start UN in Washington T180 during a GA (helped along with Great Engineer when Washington is 18 pop) UN finishes in 2 turns (with GA and bureaucracy and max OF)
T182 election for secretary general
T188 vote for diplo victory
T189 results of the vote.
2) Organize the votes necessary to win details
A) population control
Population control (chemistry for privateers would be nice but highly unlikely now, spies nice to poison water and destroy health buildings and sabotage health resources)
(also need to worry about preventing AI from capturing too many of the east's cities)--not much of a concern because the AI are lazy bums!
---Probably won't have time to any population control.
B) War! New war plan suggests we can finish off Asoka by T185.
We hopefully will be able to steal gunpowder soon draft muskets. But 15 maces will do.
C) Current relations We seem to be doing quite well here everyone currently is at least +10 displayed. I suspect Kaitzilla is correct that Monty, Gandhi, and Elizabeth will stay in Taoism. It wouldn't hurt to spread the religion to them but is probably unnecessary. Genghis was switched with espionage and will likely switch out if we don't spread taoism to more of his cities. We will have a backup spy in Gandhi's lands to switch him back. We should also do our best to get multiple spies ready to switch Elizabeth, Monty, and Genghis as well. Ideally in different cities.
We are going to shared favorite civics with Monty and Genghis
We can get 1 more bonus from Gandi and Monty from resources
We likely can get 1 more military struggle bonus from everyone but many AI cap this bonus at 2, so we are not sure
We likely will increase our shared religion bonus with all of them by at least 1 most likely 2 (although some AI cap this as well)
We can likely increase relations with some of them by gifting them techs, although some have a larger number required to get this than others. Monty for example is +2 but Gandhi is still +0 on this category even though we have given them both the same number of techs. I assume that both team mates get the bonus for shared techs? Maybe not though, maybe we have to give it to specific AI on a team. Even though they both receive maybe only the AI who were actually gave it to gets the shared tech bonus tally increased?
Elizabeth and Genghis are the ones I'm slightly worried about. Elizabeth since she has a negative hidden modifier, and Genghis because he could switch out of Taoism and we would get back the -4 for heathen religion penalty. However by gifting techs and possibly liberating a city we probably could overcome even these events. Keeping them both in Taoism would be good insurance of course.
Monty net +11 Friendly // shared war T159-T170 // shared taoism T158-T162 then T170- // sharing favorite civic (free market) T173- (hidden 0 modifier)
possible increases
can get +1 for resources, can get +1 or +2 for shared military struggle, +x for shared tech discoveries (seems to have a theshold of 5 techs for this), +1/+2 shared faith, +1/+2 shared favorite civic
Gandhi net +10 Friendly// shared war T159-T170 // shares Taoism T172- (hidden 0 modifier)
possible increases +1 resources, +1/+2 shared military, +1/+2 shared faith
Genghis net +13 Friendly // shares war T159- // shares Taoism T169- // sharing favorite civic (theocracy) since T166? (hidden -2 modifier)
possible increases +1? shared military struggle, +1/+2 shared favorite civic, +1/+2 shared faith
Elizabeth net +10 Pleased // shares war since T159 // shares Taoism T166- (hidden modifier is at least -1)
possible increases +1? shared military struggle, +1/+2 shared faith
Diplomatic Deadlines
D) Settling our own cities and growing them
Settler in GPFarm planned for a spot 1W of the oasis I believe. Can grow quickly if we have the gold to buy it a granary.
mabraham has more info on this. Although the settler could also be used to settle somewhere and liberated to an AI for diplo bonuses if necessary.
3) Kill the wizard details
Summary
Switch to Universal Sufferage T178
Buy boats T178, T179 (expensively), T180 (expensively) (no vassalage necessary) (a GG might be able to used to upgrade our galleons and so they wouldn't have to be purchased expensively the xp from the GG could give them flanking and navigation.)
Send at least 9 knights from Isengard on T180 to arrive and board boats on the coast next to Teotihuacon on T186 (Ideally send 3 knights on T179 which will upgrade to Cuirassiers in New York and arrive to board boats)
A GG should be sent to wizard killing city if it is born and can get to Wizard killing city by T181. This will save us a lot of gold since we can use him to upgrade the galleons and probably give a few knights more experience as well and get a few upgrade to a cuirassier ideally to boot.
Details and other options
We need a minimum of 9 knights if we can't get military tradition in time. More if possible. Ideally 3 of those knights at least will be cuirassiers.
Lesser units could be built now and upgraded. So chariots, horse archers, elephants, and knights can be upgraded to cuirassiers.
Let's assume that we need to win in 17 turns.
It will take galleons 7 turns to travel from the proposed western coastal city and the wizard (however... if we use a GG here, the boats bought here could be given 4+ xp, and pick up flanking and navigation I cutting travel time down to 5 turns)
If we assume the 7 turns of travel time we need to have the boats leave on T181. (boats move 4 on T181, T182, T183, T184, T185, T186 to coast of Teotihuacon, T187 move and attack, T188 attack again if necessary) (gives 1 extra turn of battle if we need it)
It takes 4 turns for a mounted unit to travel from Isengard to New York (wizard Killing city). Or it takes 8 turns for a non mounted unit to get there.
It takes 7 turns for a mounted unit to travel from Isengard to Teotihuacon's coast. As STW points out that we can board the boats later and not in New York.
If we want to have the mounted units to upgrade in New York then it will take 8 turns for them to travel from Isengard to Teotihuacon's coast.
The last mounted unit must leave from Isengard on T180 if they don't need to be upgraded. Mounted units we expect to upgrade in New York must leave T179.
We need a minimum of 9 amphibious knights to leave Isengard on T180 (no upgrades) We would like at least 3 cuirassiers which would have to be amphibious mounted units that would leave T179 from Isengard.
We need to buy boats from New York (Wizard Killing City) on T178, T179 expensive, T180 expensive. So we much switch to Universal Sufferage on T178.
Overview
Okay there are 3 competing goals now that we want to finish simultaneously if possible
I now think a target of 17 turns (or winning on T189) to meet each of these goals is what we should shoot for. This will tie or beat any team currently on the scoreboard who seems likely to have finished.
1) tech to Mass Media and build the UN and trigger the votes for election & diplo victory
2) organize the votes to win election and diplo victory
thru
- A) population control if necessary to keep south as our opponents
- B) war and capturing cities
- C) improving our relations with the north and west witches
- D) settling our own cities
1) teching to Mass Media details
Should we tech to gunpowder ourselves before Mass Media? (details in spoiler) NO
Spoiler :
(5616 to finish Mass Media)
After switch to nationalism on T173 (current turn) our research will be ~580 displayed (plus the value of the new trade routes * multipliers maybe 40 research?) So maybe we will have 620 per turn. i want to try and finish Mass Media in 7 turns. This means we need to average 668 research per turn. So we might have to build research in a few cities and switch back to bureaucracy on T178. I also think the merchants in GPFarm will need to become scientists during the last 2 turns of represenation, then they can work coasts or become merchants if gold is still a problem. I suppose free religion is out of the question since that would jeopardize our relations with the other AI.
Washington must be 18 pop by T181 at the latest so Great engineer produces... 500 + 20*18 = 860
Washington without bureacracy does about 29*1.25 =36 per turn
with bureacracy 29*1.75 = 50 per turn
We want to finish the UN in 2 turns. If we max OF the turn before we start the UN, we can do ~100 hammers then 50 the next turn. (assuming we are switching back to bureaucracy T178.
UN election for security general is the turn after the UN is built.
UN 1st vote is 7 turns after the turn UN is shown to be finished.
For example, If the UN shows it will be finished at the end of T181 then the 1st vote will be selected and voted on on T188, and we will get the results T189.
(Recently confirmed with testing)
(hopefully steal or trade for gunpowder at some point)
start Taj Mahal T173 to hopefully finish by T180 (most likely in stone)
Start Mass Media
Mass Media finish end of T179 (if we want to finish in 7 turns we must average 668 displayed science)
Start UN in Washington T180 during a GA (helped along with Great Engineer when Washington is 18 pop) UN finishes in 2 turns (with GA and bureaucracy and max OF)
T182 election for secretary general
T188 vote for diplo victory
T189 results of the vote.
2) Organize the votes necessary to win details
A) population control
Population control (chemistry for privateers would be nice but highly unlikely now, spies nice to poison water and destroy health buildings and sabotage health resources)
(also need to worry about preventing AI from capturing too many of the east's cities)--not much of a concern because the AI are lazy bums!
---Probably won't have time to any population control.
B) War! New war plan suggests we can finish off Asoka by T185.
We hopefully will be able to steal gunpowder soon draft muskets. But 15 maces will do.
C) Current relations We seem to be doing quite well here everyone currently is at least +10 displayed. I suspect Kaitzilla is correct that Monty, Gandhi, and Elizabeth will stay in Taoism. It wouldn't hurt to spread the religion to them but is probably unnecessary. Genghis was switched with espionage and will likely switch out if we don't spread taoism to more of his cities. We will have a backup spy in Gandhi's lands to switch him back. We should also do our best to get multiple spies ready to switch Elizabeth, Monty, and Genghis as well. Ideally in different cities.
We are going to shared favorite civics with Monty and Genghis
We can get 1 more bonus from Gandi and Monty from resources
We likely can get 1 more military struggle bonus from everyone but many AI cap this bonus at 2, so we are not sure
We likely will increase our shared religion bonus with all of them by at least 1 most likely 2 (although some AI cap this as well)
We can likely increase relations with some of them by gifting them techs, although some have a larger number required to get this than others. Monty for example is +2 but Gandhi is still +0 on this category even though we have given them both the same number of techs. I assume that both team mates get the bonus for shared techs? Maybe not though, maybe we have to give it to specific AI on a team. Even though they both receive maybe only the AI who were actually gave it to gets the shared tech bonus tally increased?
Elizabeth and Genghis are the ones I'm slightly worried about. Elizabeth since she has a negative hidden modifier, and Genghis because he could switch out of Taoism and we would get back the -4 for heathen religion penalty. However by gifting techs and possibly liberating a city we probably could overcome even these events. Keeping them both in Taoism would be good insurance of course.
Monty net +11 Friendly // shared war T159-T170 // shared taoism T158-T162 then T170- // sharing favorite civic (free market) T173- (hidden 0 modifier)
Spoiler :
possible increases
can get +1 for resources, can get +1 or +2 for shared military struggle, +x for shared tech discoveries (seems to have a theshold of 5 techs for this), +1/+2 shared faith, +1/+2 shared favorite civic
Gandhi net +10 Friendly// shared war T159-T170 // shares Taoism T172- (hidden 0 modifier)
Spoiler :
possible increases +1 resources, +1/+2 shared military, +1/+2 shared faith
Genghis net +13 Friendly // shares war T159- // shares Taoism T169- // sharing favorite civic (theocracy) since T166? (hidden -2 modifier)
Spoiler :
possible increases +1? shared military struggle, +1/+2 shared favorite civic, +1/+2 shared faith
Elizabeth net +10 Pleased // shares war since T159 // shares Taoism T166- (hidden modifier is at least -1)
Spoiler :
possible increases +1? shared military struggle, +1/+2 shared faith
Diplomatic Deadlines
Spoiler :
D) Settling our own cities and growing them
Settler in GPFarm planned for a spot 1W of the oasis I believe. Can grow quickly if we have the gold to buy it a granary.
mabraham has more info on this. Although the settler could also be used to settle somewhere and liberated to an AI for diplo bonuses if necessary.
3) Kill the wizard details
Summary
Switch to Universal Sufferage T178
Buy boats T178, T179 (expensively), T180 (expensively) (no vassalage necessary) (a GG might be able to used to upgrade our galleons and so they wouldn't have to be purchased expensively the xp from the GG could give them flanking and navigation.)
Send at least 9 knights from Isengard on T180 to arrive and board boats on the coast next to Teotihuacon on T186 (Ideally send 3 knights on T179 which will upgrade to Cuirassiers in New York and arrive to board boats)
A GG should be sent to wizard killing city if it is born and can get to Wizard killing city by T181. This will save us a lot of gold since we can use him to upgrade the galleons and probably give a few knights more experience as well and get a few upgrade to a cuirassier ideally to boot.
Details and other options
We need a minimum of 9 knights if we can't get military tradition in time. More if possible. Ideally 3 of those knights at least will be cuirassiers.
Lesser units could be built now and upgraded. So chariots, horse archers, elephants, and knights can be upgraded to cuirassiers.
Let's assume that we need to win in 17 turns.
It will take galleons 7 turns to travel from the proposed western coastal city and the wizard (however... if we use a GG here, the boats bought here could be given 4+ xp, and pick up flanking and navigation I cutting travel time down to 5 turns)
If we assume the 7 turns of travel time we need to have the boats leave on T181. (boats move 4 on T181, T182, T183, T184, T185, T186 to coast of Teotihuacon, T187 move and attack, T188 attack again if necessary) (gives 1 extra turn of battle if we need it)
It takes 4 turns for a mounted unit to travel from Isengard to New York (wizard Killing city). Or it takes 8 turns for a non mounted unit to get there.
It takes 7 turns for a mounted unit to travel from Isengard to Teotihuacon's coast. As STW points out that we can board the boats later and not in New York.
If we want to have the mounted units to upgrade in New York then it will take 8 turns for them to travel from Isengard to Teotihuacon's coast.
The last mounted unit must leave from Isengard on T180 if they don't need to be upgraded. Mounted units we expect to upgrade in New York must leave T179.
We need a minimum of 9 amphibious knights to leave Isengard on T180 (no upgrades) We would like at least 3 cuirassiers which would have to be amphibious mounted units that would leave T179 from Isengard.
We need to buy boats from New York (Wizard Killing City) on T178, T179 expensive, T180 expensive. So we much switch to Universal Sufferage on T178.
