From Emperor to Demigod

On the question of razing cities or keeping them: this is indeed a crucial question, since on Demigod and above the AI usually has acquired such a huge culture lead over you, that conquered cities flip back quite often. There are two ways to deal with this problem:

a) Just raze the conquered cities (gives a lot of free slaves...) and bring your own settlers to settle the freed up territory.
b) Keep the conquered cities. On the turn of capture you can fortify your units in it to quell as many resistors as possible (cities never flip on the first turn), but on the next turn move everybody out again. It's very annoying to lose half your army in a culture flip... Then strive to eliminate the civ completely as fast as possible. Once the civ is eliminated, the cities can't flip anymore, and you can safely use them.

Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, and it depends on the circumstances, which one is best.
a) allows you to make peace at any time (if the original objectives have been achieved, our the war starts going badly and you need to recover/consolidate). But other AIs will get furious at you because of all the razing. And you need to build a lot of settlers, which I often try to avoid.
b) Requires you to "go the full distance", until the civ is completely eliminated, so the campaign better be a success... Also you need a few units in reserve, which can re-capture flipped towns and keep the supply lines open. So warfare is a bit more difficult. But the benefits are also big: a lot of population that can sooner or later be used (as productive cities with already existing aqueducts, marketplace, harbors, etc., if the captured territory is close to your core (or you manage to rush the Forbidden Palace there), or as "science farms", if it is not). Also you can keep any Great Wonders the AI may have built.

ahman said:

In republic you get 0 martial art, only 1 unit upkeep per town and the rest cost 2 (!) gpt, including workers. If your towns are still small (and your army is big) or many of them are corrupted, the extra gold per tile from republic won't nearly make up for that; your army cost is probably sky high.

In despotism you get 2 martial art; if you protect each town with two units they'll basically be free of upkeep because besides the protection they make two people in the town happy. In republic MA doesn't work so you don't need defenders in each town, you can put them anywhere you want. Only three impis in a central spot can defend many cities in a distance of 6 (or 5 if you want to fortify them) from the occasional unexpected enemy landing or land attack. Four cavalry with move-3 can defend more, and an army even better.

Monarchy is almost always better than despotism; it has only 2 upkeep instead of 4 (you lose 2 gpt per town) but you can irrigate to grow, irrigate to be able to use hills and mountains, you don't get the despotism penalty, there's less corruption and you can cash rush.

Don't worry if you're not in the tech lead; as Lanzelot said staying a little behind is much cheaper. When a tech is known by many civs (that you've met) it will be cheaper to research. If you let them research it first you can use the extra money for military upkeep or rushing instead. Keep track of where your opponents are in the tech tree by watching what wonders they build with F7 or checking the "wonder initiation" setting.

OTOH researching techs first may give you a scientific leader, but it's a small chance to get them and with military force you can capture any city with a wonder.

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More useful info, thanks. A couple of things I don't get though: (1) isn't there a problem in lagging behind on the tech tree that the AI will access and use all the advantages the tech brings, hoovering up the wonders and building stronger units etc? (2) did you say it's cheaper to research something the other Civs already know? How come? Surely it costs what it costs. Or do you mean they will more readily sell to you at a lower price if everybody has the advance. (3) if I'm behind in tech and culture, what am I ahead in?

I like the F7 idea. Nice one.

Lanzelot said:

On the question of razing cities or keeping them: this is indeed a crucial question, since on Demigod and above the AI usually has acquired such a huge culture lead over you, that conquered cities flip back quite often. There are two ways to deal with this problem:

a) Just raze the conquered cities (gives a lot of free slaves...) and bring your own settlers to settle the freed up territory.
b) Keep the conquered cities. On the turn of capture you can fortify your units in it to quell as many resistors as possible (cities never flip on the first turn), but on the next turn move everybody out again. It's very annoying to lose half your army in a culture flip... Then strive to eliminate the civ completely as fast as possible. Once the civ is eliminated, the cities can't flip anymore, and you can safely use them.

Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, and it depends on the circumstances, which one is best.
a) allows you to make peace at any time (if the original objectives have been achieved, our the war starts going badly and you need to recover/consolidate). But other AIs will get furious at you because of all the razing. And you need to build a lot of settlers, which I often try to avoid.
b) Requires you to "go the full distance", until the civ is completely eliminated, so the campaign better be a success... Also you need a few units in reserve, which can re-capture flipped towns and keep the supply lines open. So warfare is a bit more difficult. But the benefits are also big: a lot of population that can sooner or later be used (as productive cities with already existing aqueducts, marketplace, harbors, etc., if the captured territory is close to your core (or you manage to rush the Forbidden Palace there), or as "science farms", if it is not). Also you can keep any Great Wonders the AI may have built.

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What? You can rush the FP? Well I'll be darned. I didn't know that. Nice tips on the razing problem. It drives me nuts.

Latest update - I am basically into mashing up India as soon as possible, pretty much straight after getting monarchy. I have adopted some of ahman's ideas, even getting a three-spearman army (which does indeed prove to be completely invulnerable - the AI refuses to attack it ) and also trying the weakly-defended city trap, which works a treat. The problem in this specific game is that seemingly no matter what I do, Carthage becomes very mighty with its enormous hinterland, Statue of Zeus and weakling neighbour, England, to prey on.

ETA I ought to confess that I am cheating by not exploring the map that I now know so well and that I am having big trouble getting all these cities up to size 12 like you said. Man, this game is tough!

Bloomin' eck! I discovered something the experts here already know and maybe assume everybody knows. But I (who have played the game for many years) did not You get to chose which city uses an overlapping tile! What!?!? Just go to the city that is using it, take its citizen off that tile and when you go back to the other city you'll see it has become free! . Something new every day!

I re-read the early posts in thus thread. Funny how they make more sense now than at first reading. This game gets more interesting all the time.

walletta said:

Bloomin' eck! I discovered something the experts here already know and maybe assume everybody knows. But I (who have played the game for many years) did not You get to chose which city uses an overlapping tile! What!?!? Just go to the city that is using it, take its citizen off that tile and when you go back to the other city you'll see it has become free! . Something new every day!

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Lanzelot said:

- As an agri civ, Chichen Itza has +5fpt from the two plains cows. So no need to share these cows with any neighboring town. But when playing a non-agri civ, these cows would give only +4fpt, which means that with a granary, 2 food would be wasted every three turns. (10 food needed for growth, but 3 x 4 = 12). By founding the next neighbor at distance three, the excess food can be given to that neighbor. Together with the fish, it can grow quite quickly.

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Switching tiles back and forth between different cities in order to achieve "magic numbers" or to direct excess food, that would be wasted in one town, into a neighboring town for faster growth there, is a standard procedure in micro-management.

Most common example: you have one single food resource that provides +4 food and a granary in one town. (Cow, game or wheat on grassland in Despotism.) Every 3 turns, 2 food would go waste, as the granary-town only needs 10 food for growth. So on this third turn you hand over the food bonus tile to the other town and give the granary-town a simple 2f-tile instead. It will still grow this turn, and the other town can grow in 7 turns instead of 10! This benefit alone makes it worth it to plant that neighbor close enough so that it can also access that food tile.

Regarding tech cost, there must be an article somewhere in the strategy forum. Can't find it though?! I wonder why something fundamental like this is not in the War Academy??
Ah, I found it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29485

Basically the required number of beakers drops with every AI which knows the tech (and which you have contact with - that's the reason for exploring and getting as many contacts as possible early on. I guess I that said already, but if you didn't know about the decreasing tech costs, you probably didn't catch it...).

The first nation to research a certain tech pays the full price. Already for the second nation to research that tech, the price drops significantly (if it has contact to the one that first discovered the tech -- otherwise it still means "full price"...)
Assuming that there are 8 nations in a game (including you), and the other 7 already know a tech and you have already contact to all these 7 nations, then researching that tech costs you only 50% of the original price!! (So keeping this mechanism in mind, is definitely worth it on the higher difficulty levels... )

Lanzelot said:

Switching tiles back and forth between different cities in order to achieve "magic numbers" or to direct excess food, that would be wasted in one town, into a neighboring town for faster growth there, is a standard procedure in micro-management.

Most common example: you have one single food resource that provides +4 food and a granary in one town. (Cow, game or wheat on grassland in Despotism.) Every 3 turns, 2 food would go waste, as the granary-town only needs 10 food for growth. So on this third turn you hand over the food bonus tile to the other town and give the granary-town a simple 2f-tile instead. It will still grow this turn, and the other town can grow in 7 turns instead of 10! This benefit alone makes it worth it to plant that neighbor close enough so that it can also access that food tile.

Regarding tech cost, there must be an article somewhere in the strategy forum. Can't find it though?! I wonder why something fundamental like this is not in the War Academy??
Ah, I found it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29485

Basically the required number of beakers drops with every AI which knows the tech (and which you have contact with - that's the reason for exploring and getting as many contacts as possible early on. I guess I that said already, but if you didn't know about the decreasing tech costs, you probably didn't catch it...).

The first nation to research a certain tech pays the full price. Already for the second nation to research that tech, the price drops significantly (if it has contact to the one that first discovered the tech -- otherwise it still means "full price"...)
Assuming that there are 8 nations in a game (including you), and the other 7 already know a tech and you have already contact to all these 7 nations, then researching that tech costs you only 50% of the original price!! (So keeping this mechanism in mind, is definitely worth it on the higher difficulty levels... )

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I have no doubt whatever that your post planted a tiny seed in my little mind and that I cannot claim the deeply profound tile-sharing breakthrough as my own.

On the first highlight, I regret that I don't get the 10 food thing. I mean, I take your word for it and I can do the tile swapping thing but I just don't get why it's 10. Turns out that tile sharing aside from being very ugly (to my eye) has a huge advantage in allowing cities to share good tiles.

Can you tell me this? Is corruption affected by distance from the capital? That is, does a three tile gap mean less corruption than a four tile one?

On the second highlight - blimey! I had absolutely no clue about this. Gadzooks! And thanks.

ETA - I looked at the link and was confronted with a mind-boggling mathematical formula of fiendish complexity. As I have too little life left to get an advanced degree in maths (and would still not understand it even then) I shall just take your word for it that it's cheaper when everyone else knows something. That is indeed, pretty far out and a good reason for playing on larger maps with lots of opponents. I am beginning to realise my choice of set up was maybe not ideal … Still, I chose it for simplicity's sake and still have several thousand attempts yet before I'm anywhere near giving up

Wait. I guess when the food box is full the city grows but that excess food does not survive the process. The granary has space for 10 food. Does the granary capacity get bigger at some point? I'm sure I have seen a bigger granary

Hang on, this is your city of size 7 and up thing, isn't it? Where you said growth is slower with these bigger cities. Now I get it. What I have been doing is lobbing captured workers into my core cities since they aren't just cheap but free! I realise I thus pollute the purity of the blood of the populace but it is the Mayan way to capture the enemy and put him to good use (probably before chopping him to pieces on some sacrificial altar - but that's another story). Only thing is that I want to hold back the Javelin chuckers in order not to trigger the GA to early.

Tell you what, if I go back to emperor level now I reckon I'll be mashing the place up something rotten. Still. Much to learn.

OK, now it's coming together. I get the food box, the tile swapping, the advantages of lagged development etc. Quite amazing. I take my hat off to you guys. If you ever decide to attempt world domination, I think you'll have a good chance of success

Now, the next thing is military skill. I can bone up on that in the war academy.

walletta said:

Hang on, this is your city of size 7 and up thing, isn't it? Where you said growth is slower with these bigger cities. Now I get it.

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Yeah, they take forever to grow, but building a worker and losing a citizen in a "town" (pop-6 and below) still gives you a citizen when you join it into a "city" (pop-7 and above). You use 20 food + 10 shields in the town but get 40 food back when it joins the city, it's 10 food/shields for free. If the town has a granary a worker costs even less: 10 food + 10 shields = 20.

Find a spot with 5 food early, settle there, build a granary, start building worker-settler-worker-settler..., then only worker every 2 turn and don't stop. Let each worker develop a tile for another city, then join that city to work the tile. Population transfer, you'll have some large cities up and running in no time. Multiple settler/worker factories is even better if you find more good spots.

Whether to let cities keep growing after pop-7, on top of the workers joining, I think depends on the situation. It's the "a few shields now or many shields later" balance. Work high food tiles for 40 food to get an extra citizen that can make a shield per turn, or work high shield tiles to get an instant 40 shields?

Have the luxury slider raised to where even the worst city (probably the one farthest from your capital) doesn't get into civil disorder, and send your workers to the unnecessarily happy cities first. If a city is too happy it should grow to work more tiles. At some point though, the outer towns will get too corrupt to make it worth increasing the luxury and work tiles, then use scientists or taxmen. 3 science flasks is better than 10% of 3 shields from a mountain.

Try to settle adjacent to fresh water. Building multiple 100 shield (only 50 for agricultural civs) aqueducts instead of 5 catapults or 3.3 swordmen per town will really slow down your military progress. Distance corruption is not as noticable as rank corruption, most of a city's corruption will come from how many other cities are closer to the capital than itself. If the only fresh water close by is a single lake, build three cities around it and the surrounding cities a bit farther away from them so that they all get 12 tiles each.

Your training is complete. Now go, and conquer the world.

ahman said:

Your training is complete. Now go, and conquer the world.

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My young Padawan.
But nevertheless: do like Luke, go now, and conquer the world...

Thank you, master! I have learned-a-lot from Lanzelot (and others - you especially ahman) and now hope to winalot which was the whole idea. I hope lurkers have benefited similarly. I will continue to post any interesting or funny news of my travails as an aspiring demigod!

walletta said:

Thank you, master! I have learned-a-lot from Lanzelot (and others - you especially ahman) and now hope to winalot which was the whole idea. I hope lurkers have benefited similarly. I will continue to post any interesting or funny news of my travails as an aspiring demigod!

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Yes indeedy. Thanks to Lanzelot, Ahman, and tjs282 (loved the concise explication of a settler pump, first time--I think--I finally "got it"). And thanks to you, walletta, for asking the right questions and being persistently curious about this incredible game.

Jivilov said:

Yes indeedy. Thanks to Lanzelot, Ahman, and tjs282 (loved the concise explication of a settler pump, first time--I think--I finally "got it"). And thanks to you, walletta, for asking the right questions and being persistently curious about this incredible game.

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Yes, I should have mentioned tjs282 as well. You guys are really awesome. I just came back from reading a few pages of an emperor level succession game featuring Lanzelot and some pretty darn good other players - the complexity and depth of thinking are just amazing. I have such a long way to go!

Just for the record, I should point out that I'm still more of a parrot (padawan?) than a (jedi) master.

I have read nearly everything in the War Academy at some point, and some of it I even remember to apply in my solo games, but I still don't win reliably at Monarch -- that's partly why I joined that Emperor SG! Most of my 'expertise' has been picked up over the last 2 months from Lanzelot, CommandoBob and Choxorn.

My next couple of solo games will probably be at Emperor rather than DG. I'm kind of hopeful that I'll be able to win them though...

tjs282 said:

Just for the record, I should point out that I'm still more of a parrot (padawan?) than a (jedi) master.

I have read nearly everything in the War Academy at some point, and some of it I even remember to apply in my solo games, but I still don't win reliably at Monarch -- that's partly why I joined that Emperor SG! Most of my 'expertise' has been picked up over the last 2 months from Lanzelot, CommandoBob and Choxorn.

My next couple of solo games will probably be at Emperor rather than DG. I'm kind of hopeful that I'll be able to win them though...

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Well you could have fooled me! Anyhow, thanks again to you and the other guys

Just as I'm here, I have only started to appreciate how daunting the step up from emperor is in the course of these three pages of discussion. It has greatly enhanced my experience of the game but made me realise that a heck of a lot more detailed calculation and planning are required than I have been inclined to devote to it. It is just like chess, where I am a lazy player who uses judgment rather than calculation (and consequently and not very good at it ). To get on, one must calculate!

walletta said:

Yes, I should have mentioned tjs282 as well. You guys are really awesome. I just came back from reading a few pages of an emperor level succession game featuring Lanzelot and some pretty darn good other players - the complexity and depth of thinking are just amazing. I have such a long way to go!

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Really. Checked out the SG, and there on page 2 was Lanzelot's blasphemous suggestion for building the first city:

"Losing even 3-4 turns would be nothing compared to the huge gains we get:

Capital grows much much faster. Already after a dozen turns it will have caught up and then leave the other start in the dust.
We gain at least 2 low-corruption locations for excellent size 12-cities."

Couldn't believe it. I've never, ever, moved the founder more than one tile, and that was only to be along a river or GET ON THE COAST! It never occurred to me that founding on the coast screws up your RCP. Gotta remember that one.

Then on page 3 there was this nugget (again from Lanzelot):

"We should make sure that every first-ring city has 12 tiles to work on, because that makes the most out of our multiplier buildings. For example: if we can work 6x12 = 72 tiles with 6 cities (case a), we need 6 markets, libraries and universities. If we cramp 8 cities into these same 72 avaiable tiles (case b), we need 8 markets, libraries and universities. The total output would be approx. the same (not quite, because in case b, cities #7 and #8 would have higher corruption so the output of the tiles worked by these cities would be reduced compared to case a), but the investment would be higher (480 shields more needed for the additional markets, libs and unis) and the maintenance cost for the additional 6 buildings would cost -8gpt."

Hadn't thought of that either. Always used to build as many cities close to the capital as possible, even for "science" games. Just goes to show that ten years of practical experience can't always make up for a lack of theory and research. (Question: Would a cluttered ring be OK for wargames? Like, more cities=more units?)

Definitely need to read more. Thanks for the tip walletta.

Right, I have reached this position. Observe, I have just researched monarchy and acquired a GSL. I should be grateful for suggestion as tow hat to do with him.

Lanzelot - please note that my city development is slightly different from what you have recommended in that I have sort of splurged out to the south a bit in order to get those horses. In fact, I put a town on a hill to the south (err, west? - whatever, beside the lake is where I mean) of the horses just so the Carthaginians could have something to attack that wasn't close to my luxuries. I am using ahman's sneaky idea of defending it weakly but with reserves ready to pour in when necessary. In fact, I have had already one completely harmless and short war with Carthage which went exactly according to plan. My next objective is to plant a town on the Carthagian border and culture their two spices, or at least one of them. Maybe I should even launch a war and capture that town of theirs but I need to build up the empire's potential and the army first. Anyhow, I think this is close to the most favourable set up I have reached so far and I should be grateful for suggestions on the GSL thing and any other insights.

walletta said:

Maybe I should even launch a war and capture that town of theirs but I need to build up the empire's potential and the army first. Anyhow, I think this is close to the most favourable set up I have reached so far and I should be grateful for suggestions on the GSL thing and any other insights.

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Here's a suggestion: hurry to literature, rush the great library with the leader, switch to monarchy, 0% science and use all gold to rush city improvements or military (or pay for a large army). You can't outresearch the AI on demigod anyway, so use the gold to develop or expand your empire. With such a small map I see no reason to build expensive libraries, marketplaces, harbors, aqueducts etc, put all shields into military and dominate.

I wouldn't feel safe with all those warriors. Unless you're planning to mass upgrade them to swordmen when you get iron, build the best units available: spearmen and horsemen. 20 shields extra per city for 2 spearmen instead of 2 warriors isn't much. Cities without barracks shouldn't build defenders/attackers, they can build catapults.

With all that fresh water available, it seems like a waste to build two of the three best cities away from it.

Jivilov said:

(Question: Would a cluttered ring be OK for wargames? Like, more cities=more units?)

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Yes, in quick 'n dirty military games, I build a much tighter core as well.
By the way, if you will excuse me, let me recommend some other literary attempt of mine, a Training Day Game, where I think I outlined some basics for fast domination games quite well:
Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman
A 50 AD domination victory with the Celts on a not-so-easy continents map and a start position that appeared quite weak at first. (Only one bonus resource: a deer forest.)

walletta said:

Right, I have reached this position. Observe, I have just researched monarchy and acquired a GSL. I should be grateful for suggestion as to what to do with him.

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ahman's suggestion of Great Library makes of course a lot of sense. The Great Library is very powerful on the higher difficulty levels, if you can get it early in the ancient age. (On lower difficulty levels, it doesn't make much sense, because the AI doesn't research fast enough...)
But before I would give any definite recommendation, let me ask this question: what victory condition are you aiming for? For example, for a 100K victory or for domination on Pangaea, Artemis would be much stronger. Also the Pyramids is always worth considering.
It also depends, on what close neighbors can be expected to build for me... If the next door neighbor has been building the Pyramids for ages and can be expected to finish it soon, I won't use my SGL for it. I rather pick something else, let him finish the Pyramids and then go and capture it, if I really want it. That's two free wonders instead of one...

Lanzelot said:

Yes, in quick 'n dirty military games, I build a much tighter core as well.
By the way, if you will excuse me, let me recommend some other literary attempt of mine, a Training Day Game, where I think I outlined some basics for fast domination games quite well:
Asterix the Gaul -- Or: How to get the biggest bang out of the Gallic Swordsman
A 50 AD domination victory with the Celts on a not-so-easy continents map and a start position that appeared quite weak at first. (Only one bonus resource: a deer forest.)



ahman's suggestion of Great Library makes of course a lot of sense. The Great Library is very powerful on the higher difficulty levels, if you can get it early in the ancient age. (On lower difficulty levels, it doesn't make much sense, because the AI doesn't research fast enough...)
But before I would give any definite recommendation, let me ask this question: what victory condition are you aiming for? For example, for a 100K victory or for domination on Pangaea, Artemis would be much stronger. Also the Pyramids is always worth considering.
It also depends, on what close neighbors can be expected to build for me... If the next door neighbor has been building the Pyramids for ages and can be expected to finish it soon, I won't use my SGL for it. I rather pick something else, let him finish the Pyramids and then go and capture it, if I really want it. That's two free wonders instead of one...

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Well, I am just 'aiming' ('hoping' is more like it) for any victory at all! I have run on a few times from the saved position since posting it, building the Temple of Artemis each time and then, the hard way, the Great Wall. The idea is to splat down new cities with temples and walls in territory seized from India which, assuming competent command (sadly lacking in my case) has wine, iron and highly desirable spare horses which Carthage will pay for.

What I don't get, Lanzelot, is your idea of seizing other Civ's wonders. Won't their cities culture right back to them if you don't raze and replace them. Btw. what I tend to do is abandon them rather than raze. Does the AI see any difference or is equally outraged by either method?

I guess I'm going for domination.