SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Isengard...

I think we might want to still build Moai statues there before the HE. Moai can be finished by T139 and then HE can be finished by T144-5 (with the chop of the forest that will be in its culture soon)

Long term Moai will return the hammer investment into in about 20 turns so by T159 we get 8 raw hammers out that would wouldn't have otherwise and most likely the commerce on those coastal tiles we wouldn't working as well. So +8 hammers +16 commerce from T159-til the end. Plus Moai grows faster on coast than it would on workshops. Plus it lets the workers do something else other than build workshops for Isengard (they still will build them it just reduces their priority significantly)

I don't anticipate we will need to build significant military units before T144-5. By T144-5 we will have engineering most likely and could start cranking out trebs perhaps.

test game missing the holy city
And I found a significant difference in the test game. The test game didn't have the taoist holy city in stone city, so I overspent on the machinery steal by about 200 espionage. So we should have about 200 more espionage on the western witches in the test game.

I updated the test game to have the taoist holy city.

Also we haven't been modeling the espionage in the test game very well, the espionage for the north, east, west, south are all off. We have left the espionage on the eastern witches in the test game.

stealing drama and/or engineering
I estimate that we need
~92 espionage to steal drama from the north
~462 espionage to steal engineering from the north
(assume 50% stationary spy bonus and 20% espionage spending discount and assumes taoism spreads here successfully, these would cost less with another infiltration mission)
 

Attachments

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Washington
Spoiler :


Stone
Spoiler :


Gems
Spoiler :


GPFarm
Spoiler :


Silver
Spoiler :


Isengard
Spoiler :


Cultural Bridge
Spoiler :


Marble City
Spoiler :


Phants
Spoiler :


Sheep City
Spoiler :


Fur City
Spoiler :


Captured Barb city
Spoiler :
 
Looks good Bcool. Obviously we are going with universities and oxford while building up gold this turnset and stealing juicy techs. I guess the main question is Oxford: Washington or GPFarm?

GPFarm
When GPFarm maxes out with 8 scientists and 2 more scientists from the Great Library, Oxford will give us a 150% multiplier in GPfarm. That means those 10 scientists will generate 150:science: at all times forever regardless of what % our slider is at. An academy would boost the 10 scientists to 180:science:

Washington
Our cottaged capital. With Bureaucracy, it will generate an awful lot of commerce. When our slider is at 100%, it will do awesome with Oxford. If our slider isn't at 100% a lot, not so much. I guess it really depends on how big our empire gets and how many merchants we can run whether we keep 100% slider more often than not.



Other Thoughts

We need 2 missionaries to go convert Ghenghis.

Maybe use a couple more missionaries to get get all our cities converted to Taoism. The more votes we have in the AP the better, and for buildings it is a cheap forge unless we go Theocracy in which case it is a free barracks almost.

Sorry to hear we lost an elephant at 94% odds! The Random Number Generator really hates us lately!

Where could that Wizard possibly be :confused:
It would be crazy to have to find him with scouting blimps or starting a war with someone whose vote we need just to reach him.
 
Galley
The galley is in the wrong position in the test game (forgot to wake it up in the test game...)

you can pretty easily delete it and add it to the right position if it is important for any planning purposes...

Luck
I noticed that Monty lost a city to the barbarians in the real game. And that is probably the only reason why we were able to give him a city so late. So I think that random event counteracts a lot of the random bad luck we have been having with battles, religion spreads, and steals.

Oxford
I'm assuming that Oxford goes in the capital.

GPFarm is nice but doesn't have a forge and we would like to switch over to max specialists in GPFarm before it could finish Oxford.

The capital commerce will continue to rise over time as the Capital grows and the cottages mature. While GPfarm will remain static. I think we can build wealth and/or run merchants to keep us going at 100% slider for quite some time. Plus the capital can build Oxford a turn or 2 faster since it has a forge and a few more base hammers.

missionaries
I agree we need missionaries for Genghis, but I think Cultural bridge and Boston are the priorities. I was going to build another missionary in GPFarm but I was worried that we might want to switch to Pacifism soon and GPFarm wouldn't have time to finish a missionary and build and whip a university.

I think building a monastery in Fur City sooner rather than later is good call since it would be nice to be able produce the missionary closer to the AI to whom we hope to spread the religion.

Stone city should be able to build at least 1 missionary after the whip of the university.
 
Luck
... So I think that random event counteracts a lot of the random bad luck we have been having with battles, religion spreads, and steals.

Events are turned off. Simple RNG effects should not be called events, since that may be confused with the event system.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Tech Path/ Bulbing Issue
We want to avoid teching gunpowder or stealing it since it unlocks a chemistry bulb instead of an electricity bulb. And if we research Chemistry before finishing electricity, the GS will bulb Biology instead of Electricity.

This means if we are planning a dip into nationalism at some point it most likely will involve macemen drafts unless we plan to ramp up the war after we can put a few bulbs into electricity.

great scientist bulb list as reference
Spoiler :
Great Scientist:
Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight (BTS)
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Superconductors (BTS)
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Stealth (BTS)
Mining
Military Science (BTS)
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech
 
I'm trying to create a reference for the true AI personalities on the 1st page of the team thread (summarizing Tahcy's research) and trying to figure out the hidden diplo modifiers for each AI

It is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10749260&postcount=4

I hope Tachy won't mind but I think I decoded one more AI personality

I recently observed that when both northern witches were pleased with us they still won't trade maps...
I think either fake Genghis or fake Elizabeth is the real Elizabeth since only 2 AI will trade maps only at Friendly --Tokugawa and Elizabeth.
Tokugawa has already been identified.
And since we know the fake Elizabeth has Hereditary rule as a favorite civic and the real Elizabeth has free religion as a favorite civic...
Then fake Genghis must be real Elizabeth.
 
I just had a thought...

Isn't it incredibly unlikely for a Emperor level AI to lose a city to the barbarians and not be able to recapture it?

I think we have found the wizard... (a barbarian unit who took Monty's 2nd city from him)
 
I'm trying to create a reference for the true AI personalities on the 1st page of the team thread (summarizing Tahcy's research) and trying to figure out the hidden diplo modifiers for each AI

It is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10749260&postcount=4

I hope Tachy won't mind but I think I decoded one more AI personality

I recently observed that when both northern witches were pleased with us they still won't trade maps...
I think either fake Genghis or fake Elizabeth is the real Elizabeth since only 2 AI will trade maps only at Friendly --Tokugawa and Elizabeth.
Tokugawa has already been identified.
And since we know the fake Elizabeth has Hereditary rule as a favorite civic and the real Elizabeth has free religion as a favorite civic...
Then fake Genghis must be real Elizabeth.

:huh: Technically I mind a bit because that is the last bit of territory I can be useful...
nice finding though...really nice one. The worse is I recently read a long forgotten TMIT's post talking about Toku and Elizabeth eternal refusal to trade maps and I didn't manage to make any links to the SGOTM...
:sad::sad::sad:
 
I just had a thought...

Isn't it incredibly unlikely for a Emperor level AI to lose a city to the barbarians and not be able to recapture it?

I think we have found the wizard... (a barbarian unit who took Monty's 2nd city from him)

Monty=Mansa without skirmishers. Mansa is lame at protecting his cities early.
Anyways, I really like your theory...and that would explain why we had Archery as first tech.
 
I just had a thought...

Isn't it incredibly unlikely for a Emperor level AI to lose a city to the barbarians and not be able to recapture it?

I think we have found the wizard... (a barbarian unit who took Monty's 2nd city from him)


That is a really good theory! Our Great Spy is in a position to check it out in a few turns too :D



My own pet theory that the Buddist or Hindu capital is on an island took a big hit. Monty's capital is perfectly on land. So now either Ragnar is on an island or my theory was totally wrong. I will go back and explore my initial assumptions.
 
Tech Path/ Bulbing Issue
We want to avoid teching gunpowder or stealing it since it unlocks a chemistry bulb instead of an electricity bulb. And if we research Chemistry before finishing electricity, the GS will bulb Biology instead of Electricity.

This means if we are planning a dip into nationalism at some point it most likely will involve macemen drafts unless we plan to ramp up the war after we can put a few bulbs into electricity.

Yes, we will need to avoid Gunpowder until we have bulbed Electricity.

Maceman drafts are superior to Musketman drafts, because Macemen can receive City Raider promotions whereas Musketmen can't. Other than a slight edge in base strength, the only advantage of Musketmen over Macemen is Gunpowder units ignore Walls and Castle defenses (leaving just Cultural defense).

So, drafting Maceman is fine, other than drafting Riflemen also costs just 1 Population and has not quite twice the base strength (14 versus 8).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
STZ are you able to take the next turn set if we don't hear from shulec in the next 3 or 4 hours?

I am up next. I can start doing research on our game tomorrow evening and try to get a Macro PPP done 24 hours from now or 48 hours at the latest.

:nono: Patience is a virtue.

Here is a starting topic. I don't think we should trade Music. Only the western witches have it. The more techs we give to the AI, the fewer choices they have other than the liberalism path.
 
shulec we want to finish turnsets in 3 days if at all possible due the upcoming deadline. I was just getting STZ ready if you missed your self imposed deadline of 48 hours.

Here is a starting topic. I don't think we should trade Music. Only the western witches have it. The more techs we give to the AI, the fewer choices they have other than the liberalism path.

If we trade for gold then we will get to liberalism that much faster though. And how many AI tech music if there isn't a free artist with the tech? Not many. In fact some of them might be convinced to go for military tradition if they are given music so they are completely diverted from the liberalism path.
 
Yes, we will need to avoid Gunpowder until we have bulbed Electricity.

Maceman drafts are superior to Musketman drafts, because Macemen can receive City Raider promotions whereas Musketmen can't. Other than a slight edge in base strength, the only advantage of Musketmen over Macemen is Gunpowder units ignore Walls and Castle defenses (leaving just Cultural defense).

So, drafting Maceman is fine, other than drafting Riflemen also costs just 1 Population and has not quite twice the base strength (14 versus 8).

Sun Tzu Wu

I don't think the presence of the City Raider upgrade is a significant factor.

Unless we were also running Theocracy, drafted units would not have a promotion when they emerged, so level 1 muskets have higher conversion ratio of food to unit hammers (5.33 vs 4.67 at this game speed, see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=217566), and a higher base strength. In the kind of scenario where we might draft in this game (i.e. we can't win a UN vote without killing East, which we will do very very fast), the number of units that we would have with no actual combat experience will far out-strip those that have achieved a promotion after field action. So the value of the Level 1 un-promoted unit in combat is a strong consideration. Accordingly, I would rather bulb our MM techs, then research Gunpowder while building rax and theatres and then draft muskets then do something else that involves much drafting of maces. Our Globe Theatre city would likely be GPfarm, too, so a Police+Nat+Slavery+Theo drafting phase after the Rep+Bur+Caste+Paci bulbing phase makes the most sense for the empire.

What if we ran Theocracy to get a promo on a drafted unit? If we've used trebs to give collateral damage, then it doesn't matter what kind of unit we're attacking with, nor what its upgrades are or will be. If we haven't done collateral damage, then a +10% for Combat I on a musket (0.9 to our strength) is comparable with a -20% for CR1 against a longbow (-1.2 from their strength). That strength difference is most significant when the combat odds are closest to even, but those odds never will be close to even against fortified longbows in cities where there's been no collateral damage. If we're not suiciding trebs, then we're suiciding the attacking units... Also, a C1 musket is much more useful in the field, especially where crossbows might be the defenders.

Basically, I expect that the game (and our units) will not last long enough to get maces to CR2 or CR3 in large enough quantities to matter (and the scenario that does matter is creating CR3 maces to turn into CR3 rifles, which we hope can never arise because we've killed the Wizard already).

Obviously, either drafted unit will need supporting pikemen or elephants for defence against knights.
 
Here is a starting topic. I don't think we should trade Music. Only the western witches have it. The more techs we give to the AI, the fewer choices they have other than the liberalism path.

If the AIs are teching like demons, and might tech Music, then we don't gain much time by withholding it. If they won't tech Music, then we lose by withholding it. I understand that we do need to do some natural teching on our bulb path, so gold that we acquire accelerates that. The Music trade only might accelerate them competing for Liberalism, depending what they choose next, and whether they are the AIs who contest Liberalism with us. Philo opens Nat, Music opens MT, Guilds opens Gunpowder and Banking, and there's the Astro path too.
 
STZ are you able to take the next turn set if we don't hear from shulec in the next 3 or 4 hours?

I believe that shulec's last post makes this question mute.

However, I'll be ready on the evening of the 10th or when shulec finishes his turn set, which ever come later.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I don't think the presence of the City Raider upgrade is a significant factor.

Unless we were also running Theocracy, drafted units would not have a promotion when they emerged, so level 1 muskets have higher conversion ratio of food to unit hammers (5.33 vs 4.67 at this game speed, see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=217566), and a higher base strength. In the kind of scenario where we might draft in this game (i.e. we can't win a UN vote without killing East, which we will do very very fast), the number of units that we would have with no actual combat experience will far out-strip those that have achieved a promotion after field action. So the value of the Level 1 un-promoted unit in combat is a strong consideration. Accordingly, I would rather bulb our MM techs, then research Gunpowder while building rax and theatres and then draft muskets then do something else that involves much drafting of maces. Our Globe Theatre city would likely be GPfarm, too, so a Police+Nat+Slavery+Theo drafting phase after the Rep+Bur+Caste+Paci bulbing phase makes the most sense for the empire.

What if we ran Theocracy to get a promo on a drafted unit? If we've used trebs to give collateral damage, then it doesn't matter what kind of unit we're attacking with, nor what its upgrades are or will be. If we haven't done collateral damage, then a +10% for Combat I on a musket (0.9 to our strength) is comparable with a -20% for CR1 against a longbow (-1.2 from their strength). That strength difference is most significant when the combat odds are closest to even, but those odds never will be close to even against fortified longbows in cities where there's been no collateral damage. If we're not suiciding trebs, then we're suiciding the attacking units... Also, a C1 musket is much more useful in the field, especially where crossbows might be the defenders.

Basically, I expect that the game (and our units) will not last long enough to get maces to CR2 or CR3 in large enough quantities to matter (and the scenario that does matter is creating CR3 maces to turn into CR3 rifles, which we hope can never arise because we've killed the Wizard already).

Obviously, either drafted unit will need supporting pikemen or elephants for defence against knights.

You draft the most advanced unit you have the technology to draft. We don't have a choice, so your argument is somewhat pointless to begin with.

We don't need Theocracy to gain a single promotion on drafted units (drafted units gain only XP / 2 where XP is the non-drafted XP a unit is trained with); Vassalage and a Barracks would suffice for drafted units to get 2 XPs.

One needs only something less than 99% odds to gain +2 XP. (Normally with Theocracy + Vassalage + Barracks, one can start Macemen with 7 / 2 = 3 XP. One successful engagement at 99% or less odds with the enemy will increase XPs from 3 to 5.) However, Dorthy is Charismatic, so Vassalage + Barracks -> Drafted units start with 2 XP (one promotion). One successful engagement at 99% or less odds with the enemy will increase XPs from 2 to 4. Furthermore, two more successful engagements at 99% or less odds with the enemy will increase XPs from 4 to 8 which suffices to promote the Maceman to City Raider III.

Sorry, your arguments to the contrary (City Raider not being an important promotion) are not convincing.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
If we trade for gold then we will get to liberalism that much faster though. And how many AI tech music if there isn't a free artist with the tech? Not many. In fact some of them might be convinced to go for military tradition if they are given music so they are completely diverted from the liberalism path.

Agreed on all counts.

The AI Civs lose interest in Music as soon as the free Great Artist is awarded, unless they are already in Cultural Victory mode in which case they will research it sooner or later, if they aren't able to get it in trade.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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