The benefits of avoiding bronze working

Brennus.Quigley said:

6%, huh?! That's a significant portion of the maps. So you agree with me now, huh?

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Are you really this bad at math? Or do I have to explain to you what 6% means.

Zx Zero Zx said:

Are you really this bad at math? Or do I have to explain to you what 6% means.

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Haha. 6% means 1 in 16 maps. I assume that you, and most people here, will play much more than 16 maps! How many random maps are isolated starts? I saw a very popular strategy guide for that particular 1 in 16 (or whatever it is) situation!

(And besides, I'm still sticking with ~30%, per my experience).

Excellent strategy article! Thank you for sharing it!

I will say that I read the article carefully and every single response. In my opinion, the strategy has neither been proven nor disproven as effective on any particular difficulty level. What is clear is that it does apply to relative small percentage of maps, 6% on the low end and 30% on the high end. The truth probably lies some where in between depending on the map script used to generate the map. Even the low ball figure of 6% is far better than how generally applicable a AI Leader specific strategy is when the player Leader is randomly generated = 1 of 52 (BtS) = <2%. A strategy that is applicable to a map type even only 6% of the time is worthy of consideration.

Even if this strategy is less effective than others 100% of the time, we have still learned something about playing Civ 4 (BtS) that we didn't know before. In this case, the exercise of detailing the strategy, and disproving it is still very valuable. Other the other hand, if it is found to be effective on just 6% of a particular map type that completely justifies all the effort of its development with the profit of winning more games or winning them earlier on the maps it applies to.

Finally, let me say that bulbing and trading aren't the only alternatives to Researching Technologies. Espionage and stealing a key Technolgy that the AI techs early can have a minor role in making the main strategy more viable, if not directly aiding it.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Excellent strategy article! Thank you for sharing it!

I will say that I read the article carefully and every single response. In my opinion, the strategy has neither been proven nor disproven as effective on any particular difficulty level. What is clear is that it does apply to relative small percentage of maps, 6% on the low end and 30% on the high end. The truth probably lies some where in between depending on the map script used to generate the map. Even the low ball figure of 6% is far better than how generally applicable a AI Leader specific strategy is when the player Leader is randomly generated = 1 of 52 (BtS) = <2%. A strategy that is applicable to a map type even only 6% of the time is worthy of consideration.

Even if this strategy is less effective than others 100% of the time, we have still learned something about playing Civ 4 (BtS) that we didn't know before. In this case, the exercise of detailing the strategy, and disproving it is still very valuable. Other the other hand, if it is found to be effective on just 6% of a particular map type that completely justifies all the effort of its development with the profit of winning more games or winning them earlier on the maps it applies to.

Finally, let me say that bulbing and trading aren't the only alternatives to Researching Technologies. Espionage and stealing a key Technolgy that the AI techs early can have a minor role in making the main strategy more viable, if not directly aiding it.

Sun Tzu Wu

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Thank you for reading the article (and thread) and for your positive, balanced feedback. I would be very interested in how espionage could enhance the strategy, if at all. I certainly don't consider myself an espionage expert (although I can sabotage some Space Ship parts from time to time)! As I mentioned, I already rolled a great random/fractal map for this and will gladly share it once I get a break from real life stuff to play a new single player game. Definitely looking forward to seeing how you would play it differently. Good times.

Zx Zero Zx said:

Who agreed with you that actively wins on Deity? Duckweed? I'll give you that he is better than me, but he sure as hell didn't agree with you.

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Sounded fairly sympathetic to me.

Duckweed said:

I actual like your out-off-box thought, your strategy could fit with some situations, such as low food, no happiness resource, high hammer yield map. However, as others already pointed out, that's quite rare.

Your idea could apply more commonly before HR is available, after that, no slavery really hurts the game results. In the Joao game posted by Tachywaxon, before I researched Monarchy, BW indeed was less useful in my play.

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Duckweed is not only one of the best players in the world, he is absolutely unparalleled in his ability to think outside the box. There is a reason why his SGOTM team consistently wins against teams that look better on paper.

This being said, Duckweed's position appears to me to be much the same as my own. It occasionally is right to put off BW to get other things which are more important ATM and that Brennus' puts together a refreshing and interesting argument on the topic. IMO, Brennus has not been able to build a case for actively avoiding BW and I think that Duckweed would agree.

OTOH, there was a poster who came here a few years back advocating a strategy which all the experts thought was crazy and that would never work on the highest levels. You may recall the name. It was obsolete.

He proved he was right by winning over and over again.

Brennus, the gauntlet has been dropped. You need to prove that your ideas can actually work in real play.

Abegweit said:

There is a reason why his SGOTM team consistently wins against teams that look better on paper.

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Like Kossin? No team looked better on paper, if you ask many good players here "who did you learn most from?"..most will say Kossin.

Mylene said:

Like Kossin? No team looked better on paper, if you ask many good players here "who did you learn most from?"..most will say Kossin.

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No Kossin no shakabrade.


Regarding SGOTMs, Duckweed's grand strategy and Kossin's micro and ability to maintain good atmosphere and enthusiasm among all the players. In other words good balance and teamwork.

I like PD the most because they post one third of the posts other competitive teams post and usually finish game the first. Although last SGOTM all star Kakumeika deserved gold more than anyone else if we want to be fair.

Abegweit said:

Duckweed is not only one of the best players in the world, he is absolutely unparalleled in his ability to think outside the box.

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Mylene said:

Like Kossin? No team looked better on paper, if you ask many good players here "who did you learn most from?"..most will say Kossin.

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shakabrade said:

No Kossin no shakabrade.

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I'm sure both Duckweed and Kossin are world class players. I'm also sure that if they've been innovators in civ strategy, then they've done so by challenging conventional wisdom, not blindly following it. You can't add anything new if you don't think for yourself.

Abegweit said:

Brennus, the gauntlet has been dropped. You need to prove that your ideas can actually work in real play.

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With pleasure. I will gladly pick up the gauntlet once this real life work (dissertation chapter) is out of the way. Have already rolled up an awesome map (on the second roll). Will be very interested to see how others play it differently.

Mylene said:

Kossin...

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is certainly a fine player. The rest of the team has generally consisted of mere mortals, however. Duckweed rarely plays. You will note, however, that he treats Kossin different from the others. When it's Kossin's turn, they generally discuss strategy and the details are left up to the player. When it's someone else, he is expected to make a PPP which Duckweed corrects and he is never wrong in his corrections. Shaka makes a fair point about how Kossin's attitude helps smooth things out on the team. Really the two players compliment each other very well.

shakabrade said:

Kakumeika...

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is a up and coming team which works well together and certainly has the best code divers since Klarius. They indeed were unlucky not to win last time around. However, PD's traditional rivals are OSS. Repeatedly the game has been a contest between PD grand strategy and OSS tactical skill. OSS would be the first to admit that it was their lack of a plan that dropped them into third place this time around.

Brennus.Quigley said:

I'm sure both Duckweed and Kossin are world class players. I'm also sure that if they've been innovators in civ strategy, then they've done so by challenging conventional wisdom, not blindly following it. You can't add anything new if you don't think for yourself.

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And by that you imply that a great majority of other skilled players _don't_ think for themselves?

You are the one who presents a outrageously unorthodox playing style, others are simply (with all rights) skeptical about it's merits.

How about you start cutting back on that "I'm so open minded, you are all a bunch of dogmatic sheeple."-attitude?

I'm starting to wonder if you are just Marigoldrain who started a new account to enjoy the merits of doubt in your posts.

Get of your high horse please.

I don't think by myself. I admit it. That's why I suck in SGOTM. True story.

EDIT: I'm not even sarcastic.

EDIT: Krikav, what happened to the enthusiastic you.

Uuh ooh, if i'd have said that highly tempered Mylene would have striked again
It's good thou that iam not alone with thinking that Brennus acts...weird.

I still think you have a temper. I don't see what's the problem with it. Htadus called me Tackywaxon. I know I am extremely short-tempered. I agree with that.

shakabrade said:

No Kossin no shakabrade.

Regarding SGOTMs, Duckweed's grand strategy and Kossin's micro and ability to maintain good atmosphere and enthusiasm among all the players. In other words good balance and teamwork.

I like PD the most because they post one third of the posts other competitive teams post and usually finish game the first. Although last SGOTM all star Kakumeika deserved gold more than anyone else if we want to be fair.

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Not that this is the right place to say so and while Plastics Ducks is no doubt the best overall SGOTM team in terms of both good Grand Strategy, Tactics and Logistics (collectively Micromanagement), their team seems to be dominated by Duckweed and Kossin and the game is not fairly shared with other members of the team. I noticed Kossin play turn sets longer than 50-60 turns and no other player on their team seems to do the same. I would not characterize PDs as having "good balance and teamwork". However, they do communicate well and play extremely well, but that's more the result of great synergy between two great players than it is about real teamwork involving all team members.

Thanks for your kind comments about Kakumeika's SGOTM-15 effort. You might learn more about playing BtS optimally by reading Kakumeika's SGOTM-16. Our thread is four times as long as PDs, but you will probably learn 16 times as much by reading it or just read Tachywaxon's summary of all we learned in post #8 of it. I don't think you will see that kind breath and depth of information in any other SGOTM-15 team thread.

Just to be clear, Plastics Ducks is a great team, but they do have minor flaws just like all the best SGOTM teams and Kakumeika is no exception either; we have our minor flaws too.

Sun Tzu Wu

krikav said:

And by that you imply that a great majority of other skilled players _don't_ think for themselves?

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Some do, some don't, apparently. Would you disagree with that? Can't really speak to what group the majority fall in.

krikav said:

You are the one who presents a outrageously unorthodox playing style, others are simply (with all rights) skeptical about it's merits.

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People are free to be skeptical. And I thank those who have cordially and analytically made counter arguments, given suggestions, or offered encouragement. I'll take your "outrageously unorthodox playing style" comment as a compliment.

krikav said:

How about you start cutting back on that "I'm so open minded, you are all a bunch of dogmatic sheeple."-attitude?

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Did I say that? Anyone who is thinking for themselves would agree with my last comment, not feel offended by it. Why are you so personally offended? I don't know you or what goes through your head.

My comment is in response to those who have posted "Conventional wisdom says this, so therefore you're wrong" or "Kossin taught me this, so therefore you're wrong." Looking back through your posts, that was certainly not your attitude. You were always cordial and polite before this. Sorry you took offense.

krikav said:

I'm starting to wonder if you are just Marigoldrain who started a new account to enjoy the merits of doubt in your posts.

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Don't know who that is.

krikav said:

Get of your high horse please.

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Not trying to ride on a high horse. I'm an Immortal surrounded by Deities. Just trying to argue that it is sometimes beneficial to avoid Bronze Working, even if that's not conventional wisdom. Hope that's OK with you.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Not that this is the right place to say so and while Plastics Ducks is no doubt the best overall SGOTM team in terms of both good Grand Strategy, Tactics and Logistics (collectively Micromanagement), their team seems to be dominated by Duckweed and Kossin and the game is not fairly shared with other members of the team. I noticed Kossin play turn sets longer than 50-60 turns and no other player on their team seems to do the same. I would not characterize PDs as having "good balance and teamwork". However, they do communicate well and play extremely well, but that's more the result of great synergy between two great players than it is about real teamwork involving all team members.

Great duet then.
You are right about sharing games. That is because DW and Kossin have too much authority since they usually have less experienced players with them. Team "Revolutionist" doesn't face same problems since it is composed of proven players.

Thanks for your kind comments about Kakumeika's SGOTM-15 effort. You might learn more about playing BtS optimally by reading Kakumeika's SGOTM-16. Our thread is four times as long as PDs, but you will probably learn 16 times as much by reading it or just read Tachywaxon's summary of all we learned in post #8 of it. I don't think you will see that kind breath and depth of information in any other SGOTM-15 team thread.

Just to be clear, Plastics Ducks is a great team, but they do have minor flaws just like all the best SGOTM teams and Kakumeika is no exception either; we have our minor flaws too.

Sun Tzu Wu

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Please, I am just objective. Duckweed's idea of capturing AP was out of the box and outstanding in that way, but wrong and a huge gamble. If team AI had it... Too bad you didn't punish him. Just for more fun. Nothing against him.
I did follow your thread as well and learned massive amount of new info on the game. It was also interesting but sometimes it was just too much text; normal when you read 3-4 threads. I also followed Phoenix Rising and partly OSS. SGOTMs are the best way to learn the game. I learned more on civ by reading SGOTMs than by playing. But I am yet to finish 100th game in my whole life.

I feel Kakumeika has too many players for this timeframe and a bit too much democracy. If you listened to WT more... But I know you'll adapt. I consider you favorites for this SGOTM in which I intend to participate. Especially since there are so many objectives and you have experts on every VC but conquest perhaps. OSS and PD beat you there.


@Brennus

I am an educated man and know we are all just dwarfs on the back of the giants. If you want to improve at anything, you must first achieve expertise in the field. For example, inventing internal combustion engine is a child's play compared to improving its efficiency 2-3% nowadays. Maybe you are as talented as you imply, but that doesn't add any credibility to your strategy since you only have potential for now. Once you reach expertise you'll be able to see more relations considering your strategy which is also why you don't really understand my points against your strategy. There are some good points in your strategy, you can benefit from avoiding BW in the early game (almost until 500BC sometimes), but after that there are too many interactions for inexperienced player to notice. I just think you went a bit ahead of yourself.

BTW, Kossin inspired me to try on Deity but my play doesn't have much in common with his although in some parts, I wouldn't complain if we shared the skill.

@Brennus.Quigley:

I wouldn't bother responding to anyone posting dismissive comments in your thread, without any solid reasoning or facts to back them up. It takes your valuable time to respond to troll-like posts from players that seem to make a point of including half-thought out comments in every thread of S&T. They are usually brilliant players, but they spread themselves too thin by responding to strategies that they have apparently not given critical thought to. They do themselves and readers of strategy articles like this one a disservice.

Your strategy would be best tested by someone who hasn't taken sides and thus would probably more fairly judge whether a BW or delayed BW strategy is best for a given map.

I'm still intrigued by the delayed BW strategy you have clearly presented here with some good arguments for it in a somewhat small percentage of maps. Even if a strategy fits only 5% of maps better than any other, it is still worthy of full consideration.

I often compare Civ IV with another turn based game, Chess. The games are quite different, yet there are many common elements. They both have a beginning game, mid-game and an end-game. In Chess there are many opening moves. Some are used very often, because they produce better results for white. Others are less used and few know how to win when starting them, so they rarely do use them. The often used Civ IV strategies can labeled the early BW strategies. Some of the rarely used Civ IV strategies match what you are trying to acheive in this strategy article.

I will keep your strategy in mind as I continue to play some Quick and Normal speed Deity Domination games for the HoF tables. I been thinking that some bulbing strategies, your's or some other could make winning Quick speed Deity Dominations earlier than the better known bulbing strategies.

I will let you know how that goes.

Sun Tzu Wu

^
If you join PD (at shaka), you will disappoint me. Some teams need skill.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

I will keep your strategy in mind as I continue to play some Quick and Normal speed Deity Domination games for the HoF tables. I been thinking that some bulbing strategies, your's or some other could make winning Quick speed Deity Dominations earlier than the better known bulbing strategies.

I will let you know how that goes.

Sun Tzu Wu

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Quick speed certainly decreases the value of chops in an indirect manner. Given chops consume more worker turn in parallel to a slower gamespeed (turn loss to go on the forest AND the actual action takes as much as normal speed), it certainly lowers a bit the power of chops. Nonetheless, lacking BW, still misses slavery...but again the gain is far weaker as organic production takes huge parts in low cost builds. For instance, a chariot "factory" exists well with a good production city even without help of chops.

I think quick speed favors his strategy a bit.

let's just party instead, Tachy brings cake and cookies
If someone can show me a game where bulbing Feuda > something else, i'll bring the drinks.