i've read from the soren johnson chat script done at apolyton that the reason why air units cannot sink naval units is becuase of balancing issues. If air units can sink naval units, there will not be alot of reason anymore to build ships except for transport.
Civilization III v1.16f Additions/Changes/Fixes
- Thread starter Jeffrey Morris
- Start date
Mike C
Centurion
Can't aircraft run airsuperiority missions off a carrier?
And no, even if the aircraft could sink shipts, there would still be a need for destroyers to counter the submarine threat.
Dearnen
Arrr!
It occurs to me that this would mirror history fairly well. The advent of modern aerial warfare spelled the end of the battleship age, since planes could easily sink such ships. Yet, it did not spell the end of naval warfare itself, because carriers can both defend themselves from air attack and wield air power offensively.
-Dearnen
KALIROB2k2
God of War
I have to agree, but the computer will still build sea units for battle even if you could sink them, perhaps more modern sea units should be able to shoot down planes? I dunno Fraxis that might be a more realistic touch. 
To all those people arguing that things arn't realistic, Civ3 is not a simulation! Eg the swordman vs tank thing etc. It works both ways & while it's sometimes frustrating when my units go down to a seemingly inferior unit, it's real funny when it's the other way round. So it is a game & sacrifies have to be made in terms of realisticness(?) for fun & or balance.
& to the 2 people who want to be able to sort cities by production etc under the Domestic Advisor screen, have you tried clicking on the icons?
I've clicked on the shields produced icon & it sorts fine, BUT it changes after about 5 seconds, which I think is a bug?
Haven't tried the other icons, I must remember too.
Real happy with the upcoming fixes/changes, most of the bugs I didn't even notice while playing, hehe.
& to the 2 people who want to be able to sort cities by production etc under the Domestic Advisor screen, have you tried clicking on the icons?
I've clicked on the shields produced icon & it sorts fine, BUT it changes after about 5 seconds, which I think is a bug?
Haven't tried the other icons, I must remember too.
Real happy with the upcoming fixes/changes, most of the bugs I didn't even notice while playing, hehe.
KALIROB2k2
God of War
eNergiZer
More realism means more options in war that people would come up with in life. Not a world where bomber planes cant sink a Galley
I mean theres no point in getting new units in your city when a phalanx and beat a tank defensively now is there? See your one of the few that doesnt mind the non realism.
It does bother most people, and it will bother you to, I mean play it on Diety and see how much it doesnt bother you that you cant sink a ship thats bombarding your city with jets. Dont tell me you play it on diety and it doesnt bug you, cause trust me it makes even the best players upset after a while.
I think your missing the point that this game is a Simulation type game. The swordman vs tank debate is just due to Fraxis didnt make some details as well as Civ2.
More realism means more options in war that people would come up with in life. Not a world where bomber planes cant sink a Galley
I mean theres no point in getting new units in your city when a phalanx and beat a tank defensively now is there? See your one of the few that doesnt mind the non realism.It does bother most people, and it will bother you to, I mean play it on Diety and see how much it doesnt bother you that you cant sink a ship thats bombarding your city with jets. Dont tell me you play it on diety and it doesnt bug you, cause trust me it makes even the best players upset after a while.
I think your missing the point that this game is a Simulation type game. The swordman vs tank debate is just due to Fraxis didnt make some details as well as Civ2.
I'm not saying realism is a bad thing, I'm just saying that there's got to be good reasons why the game is like it is.
I certainly agree that planes should be able to take out ships & that bombardment should be able to kill in general. But I don't mind the swordsman taking out tanks, I think it's cool
Besides it doesn't seem to happen much.
I certainly agree that planes should be able to take out ships & that bombardment should be able to kill in general. But I don't mind the swordsman taking out tanks, I think it's cool
Besides it doesn't seem to happen much.
arttu19
Chieftain
Yes, I really am pleased to have this one someday, but:
Didn't you fixed the problems with the AI's troop assemblies?
Those movements of the troops were just made too damn slowly. It's not fun to wait from 5 to 7 minutes per turn, just to see some hassle in Moscow, etc.
Didn't you fixed the problems with the AI's troop assemblies?
Those movements of the troops were just made too damn slowly. It's not fun to wait from 5 to 7 minutes per turn, just to see some hassle in Moscow, etc.
I think it would be an improvement to allow each unit of a resource to support only a certain number of cities. Technologies and improvements could then modify that number. Some, such as the car, would increase the requirement per population unit, while others would either increase the output per resource unit, or reduce the requirement per population unit.
A Tom Clancy book that came out about 10-15 years ago had an interesting take on air vs sea units. Think this book was the one where the russians invaded Iceland (among other things).
Anyway, the Russians sent up a bunch of planes which launched over 100 missles at an approaching US aircraft carrier from over 10 miles away. There was nothing the carrier could do...
Anyway, the Russians sent up a bunch of planes which launched over 100 missles at an approaching US aircraft carrier from over 10 miles away. There was nothing the carrier could do...
KALIROB2k2
God of War
Theres another example, I mean it seems unfair that units of different classes cant destroy each other like Civ2. 
Sometimes its sad to look into the past and see things that should havent even been changed were.
Fraxis still made what I consider a great game but some of the changes just are a bit confusing and leave you asking "why?"
If anyone from Fraxis might see this and you can still change that part of the game back, then I beg of you please rethink this. Hope my ranting doesnt bother anyone
Sometimes its sad to look into the past and see things that should havent even been changed were.
Fraxis still made what I consider a great game but some of the changes just are a bit confusing and leave you asking "why?"
If anyone from Fraxis might see this and you can still change that part of the game back, then I beg of you please rethink this.
Hope my ranting doesnt bother anyone Starsun
Chieftain
Anyone know when patch will be available ?
cheers
cheers
OneInTen
Darkness bound
Mike C:
Just a little perspective for you:
Doom is widely regarded as the game which was the breakthrough game for network play (certainly there were networked games before doom, but doom was the first big one). However, in its 1.0 and 1.1 releases, the LAN code was very broken and basically ran roughshod over your network. It wasn't until 1.2 (ie, the SECOND path) that it was in a reasonable state.
Simiarly, quake is widely regarded as the game that did the same thing for internet gaming. But when quake was first released, internet play was terribly laggy, especially for modem users (which was nearly everyone at the time, this is 1996 we're talking about). It wasn't until a completely spereate program was developed (quakeworld), and many, many releases that it got to the state that it really was a good playing experience.
You mention starcraft as a game that was released without major issues. Well, blizzard released several patches for starcraft, which addressed issues such as:
But people tend to forget about these things, because in the grand scheme of things, a month or two at the start of a game's life waiting on patches isn't long given a good game has a lifespan of years. Heck, quakeworld was still being patched after quake 2 came out ...
So, in short, if you had the expectation of everything working flawlessly out of the box, it's not the game that was broken, it's your expectations. If you follow the gaming industry as closely as you say you do, then you should realise even the classics (I mean, many people, myself included, will tell you doom is the greatest game of all time ...) have problems for those who pick them up as new releases.
I want everything to work perfectly too. But I think it's only reasonable to wait for a few patches and give the developers a chance to fix any outstanding issues before complaining about how terrible they are.
Just a little perspective for you:
Doom is widely regarded as the game which was the breakthrough game for network play (certainly there were networked games before doom, but doom was the first big one). However, in its 1.0 and 1.1 releases, the LAN code was very broken and basically ran roughshod over your network. It wasn't until 1.2 (ie, the SECOND path) that it was in a reasonable state.
Simiarly, quake is widely regarded as the game that did the same thing for internet gaming. But when quake was first released, internet play was terribly laggy, especially for modem users (which was nearly everyone at the time, this is 1996 we're talking about). It wasn't until a completely spereate program was developed (quakeworld), and many, many releases that it got to the state that it really was a good playing experience.
You mention starcraft as a game that was released without major issues. Well, blizzard released several patches for starcraft, which addressed issues such as:
- A map cheat hack
- Multiple bugs that allowed you to unfairly gain resources
- Major balance issues, especially of the zerg air units (I count over 60 balance issues addressed in the 1.04 patch!)
But people tend to forget about these things, because in the grand scheme of things, a month or two at the start of a game's life waiting on patches isn't long given a good game has a lifespan of years. Heck, quakeworld was still being patched after quake 2 came out ...
So, in short, if you had the expectation of everything working flawlessly out of the box, it's not the game that was broken, it's your expectations. If you follow the gaming industry as closely as you say you do, then you should realise even the classics (I mean, many people, myself included, will tell you doom is the greatest game of all time ...) have problems for those who pick them up as new releases.
I want everything to work perfectly too. But I think it's only reasonable to wait for a few patches and give the developers a chance to fix any outstanding issues before complaining about how terrible they are.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2001
- Messages
- 30,085
One thing that I find surprising is that there is no mention of a patch on at www.civ3.com.
Not everyone visits the fansites, and those people must really be wondering what's going on.
Yes, people are complaining that firaxis are so slow at giving feedback, but as Dan pointed out he answers the questions that he knows the answers to. At least he (and Jeff) visit this site. People here should at least recognise that they are getting better feedback than the general public.
Oh - by the way: In response to peoples' posts a few pages back....
1.) Even if you don't live in America, you can still be subject to US law, especially US Export Controls. You are also subject to international law.
And from someone about how it is their right to crticise and slander individuals at Firaxis (sorry, can't remember who):
2.) Yes, you can "slander" someone if you wish, however slander is illegal, and you can be brought to justice. Criticism yes, slander no.
Not everyone visits the fansites, and those people must really be wondering what's going on.
Yes, people are complaining that firaxis are so slow at giving feedback, but as Dan pointed out he answers the questions that he knows the answers to. At least he (and Jeff) visit this site. People here should at least recognise that they are getting better feedback than the general public.
Oh - by the way: In response to peoples' posts a few pages back....
1.) Even if you don't live in America, you can still be subject to US law, especially US Export Controls. You are also subject to international law.
And from someone about how it is their right to crticise and slander individuals at Firaxis (sorry, can't remember who):
2.) Yes, you can "slander" someone if you wish, however slander is illegal, and you can be brought to justice. Criticism yes, slander no.
When the patch is released, will I be able to edit the difficulty levels? I'm concerned mostly with the rate at which the computer builds and researches. I'd like to play a game where the computer has combat bonuses and other changes but still researches at the same rate. Having the computer simply research faster doesn't make sense to me, there should be other ways to make it more difficult. All faster research does is completely eliminate the need for the player to research anything. That's takes a whole feature away from the game...
Endureth
Endureth
Nomad_Wanderer
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2001
- Messages
- 20
But what about all the productive things they may say! Oh wait. Nevermind.
Can't stress this enough! I want to see Battle Calculations! Terrain Modifiers, Dice Rolls etc. Somethin' akin to SMAC, (+25% for Terrain Bonus 'member?)
At least then I then I can say it's only that I'm very unlucky with the dice roll, when my three veteran archers can't beat 1 fortified regular spearman... : ) (and the spearman wasn't even on a mountain...)
I don't understand what all the hub-bub over Air Superiority is anyway....By the time Flight is researched, the AI is usually under my boot! (jk) : )
Mike C
Centurion
Agreed. But the industry standard has been raised time and time again. Just as your 1960s Ford had horrible fuel efficency, no saftey features what so ever, it doesn't stop you from expecting nowadays for a new car to have seatbelts, side impact beams front crumple zones and an airbag for good measure.
Agree also. But note that multiplayer cheats or glitches that can be exploited are difficult to test for. Just as the same thing is with the current ability for artillery to bombard anywhere on the planet.
Air Superiority was a result of lack of testing. Period. No ifs ands or buts.
Hey, I know for a fact that DOOM was great. I played it. I don't expect everything to be 100% bug free. I never do. But there is a big gap between a glitch that can be exploitable and a major game feature that does not work. There is a big gap between spending 2 weeks with an open multiplayer beta (Starcaft) with a few multiplayer cheats glitches weren't picked up or balancing was being disagreed upon and an obvious failure to test the game properly. I mean come on guys. Play the game through ONCE and you would have noticed air superiority was not working.
First of all, as I said, a major bug like that which could have easily been dectected if there had been real testing done should not even exist on a release product.
Secondly, it is Firaxis's tight lipped policy which pissed me off. For 2 weeks, we were on the message boards BEGGING for some sort of response to air superiority and an acknowledgement that it was going to get fixed. 2 weeks with not a single word from Firaxis. Then out of the blue, Dan pops out of no where and starts slamming people who are rightly upset their complaints were IGNORED as "unconstructive". Instead of offering anything of substance, he spends a few days bouncing around the forum making smartass comments.
Then Jeff Morris comes on and starts complaining about people "slandering and threatening" the dev team. Well duhh, if you here for 2 weeks with not a single peep out of Firaxis, you'd be pissed off too after you paid 50 bucks - in some cases 70+ bucks for the collectors edition - and you had a major game feature broken.
Do you see any of the other major game developers going on message boards and complaining about how customers are ragging on them? Ofcourse they don't have such problems in the first place because they actually let their customers know what bugs they have and what they are planning on fixing. But when developers come and talk to us, they do no say, "Stop your whining", "be a little more constructive". They say "we're sorry things slipped through, we are working hard on getting things fixed".
More than anything it has been the attitude of Firaxis's staff that has pissed me off.
costanza
witty and informative
I for one don't think your begging and criticism has been anything constructive. I know I would never want a lawyer to argue for me the way you whine and cry and think that any results he got were because he just kept complaining.
If you think that your product is seriously flawed, then Firaxis has breeched their contract with you; you may file a lawsuit at any time during business hours. I think it costs around 125 bucks to file it with the clerk of courts. Litigation is the only way to get them to pay attention. Go 4 it!
I think this patch is a good thing. Like others, it's fixing a lot of things that I didn't even know were messed up. Aside from all the punctuation I mean.
I can't wait to be superior in the air for real now.
If you think that your product is seriously flawed, then Firaxis has breeched their contract with you; you may file a lawsuit at any time during business hours. I think it costs around 125 bucks to file it with the clerk of courts. Litigation is the only way to get them to pay attention. Go 4 it!
I think this patch is a good thing. Like others, it's fixing a lot of things that I didn't even know were messed up. Aside from all the punctuation I mean.
I can't wait to be superior in the air for real now.
