Team Free Embassy

Cubsfan said:

Are we already in the Inudustrial age?

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Not quite yet.
Need to get Banking & ToG from FREE for that.

I'm afraid it's still Weird Al getting "Medieval on your Heinie" in the lands of The Council.

(Yes, it's Friday, and I'm working late – perhaps it's getting to me… )
If you come to visit, you'll be bored to tears
We haven't even paid the phone bill in 300 years
But we ain't really quaint, so please don't point and stare
We're just technologically impaired

And here it is!!

We need a big THANK YOU followed soon by a WELCOME TO THE INDUSTRIAL AGE

Anybody willing to draft a letter just in case our General is absent?

Draft for review:

Dear FREE Allies,

THANK YOU!

Banking and Theory of Gravity have arrived, safe and sound in The Council – to much festivity and rejoicing. We anticipate the discovery of Magnetism next turn… and with that, an advance to the Industrial Age

Just wanted to share the excitement with you, and say "thanks" for the prompt delivery of these techs.
We'll keep you posted on the bonus tech we receive.

Looking forward to hearing back from you on the MAAP III deal.
See you in the Industrial Age!


Your allies,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

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Fine.

Maybe I'd add that we'll send our Dyes along with Magnetism - but we can still do that when we announce our free tech.

So send it off. Nice and easy.

Good letter.

We just got 1uite a bold letter back from FREE.
There’s a lot to digest here, and it’s already late for me and I’m going to bed.

Just wanted to post this so discussion can start before I get some free time in the morning.
Dig in!

Dear Allies in The Chamber,

Congratulations on building your hidden artillery display, called
Copernicus' Observatory. Would you mind to lend us some for our war
against GONG?

First, a quick update regarding our status. We have connected
Saltpeter to Freedom Central, and we are looking forward to beating
GONG with our new cavalry. At this point, we have research at 0%, in
order to stockpile gold for upgrades once we receive military
tradition. Also, SABER has approached us about a tech deal which
would probably be theory of gravity. Here is their most recent letter
to us:

Dear Team Free,

Team Saber has been looking for a way to bring more balance to this
world of ours and were wondering if you had any good ideas.
We have definitely shifted our focus to Theory of Gravity, and are now
interested in knowing if your great citizens would be willing to share
this knowledge with us. Might you be able to send a return message
with your completion turn and selling price?

Hoping to hear from you soon,

Team Saber

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Regarding the MAAPIII, we have some suggestions:

1. Switch the wonders. FREE has our SGL, and we want to use him on
the expensive, most powerful wonder, Hoover's. In exchange, FREE can
do a bit of extra research. The Council may also want to save the
shields in order to rebuild.

2. Add Espionage and Communism to the research list, and remove
Sanitation. At this point, FREE believes that Sanitation is a low
priority, and that other techs are worth more. Espionage would allow
us to efficiently spy,
and Communism would open up a great corruption fighting government
that would make the other islands very productive.

3. With the many available techs to research in the IA, FREE thinks a
deal with SABER would be beneficial. Maybe a vassalish agreement, in
which the Blues advance them to the IA and they do some research, and
in exchange we get money and control over the diplomacy.

4. Spoils of War. FREE has the right to conquer GONG, and The
Council can get BABE's land. SABER's land would be up for grabs after
bombers and marines.

Sincerely,

Empiremaker

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First, a quick update regarding our status. We have connected
Saltpeter to Freedom Central, and we are looking forward to beating
GONG with our new cavalry. At this point, we have research at 0%, in
order to stockpile gold for upgrades once we receive military
tradition. Also, SABER has approached us about a tech deal which
would probably be theory of gravity. Here is their most recent letter
to us:

Dear Team Free,

Team Saber has been looking for a way to bring more balance to this
world of ours and were wondering if you had any good ideas.
We have definitely shifted our focus to Theory of Gravity, and are now
interested in knowing if your great citizens would be willing to share
this knowledge with us. Might you be able to send a return message
with your completion turn and selling price?

Hoping to hear from you soon,

Team Saber

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SABER seems to look for a new partner. I don't like this.
We need to get active here!

Regarding the MAAPIII, we have some suggestions:

1. Switch the wonders. FREE has our SGL, and we want to use him on
the expensive, most powerful wonder, Hoover's. In exchange, FREE can
do a bit of extra research. The Council may also want to save the
shields in order to rebuild.

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That's not too nice but reasonable. It might offer us opportunity to get some more concessions - like Sanitation, no Communism, no Espionage...
The argument that we can rebuild is too cheap - we won't build it in a town that still needs library...
I'd like to build ToE nevertheless - to increase our chance for SGLs...

2. Add Espionage and Communism to the research list, and remove
Sanitation. At this point, FREE believes that Sanitation is a low
priority, and that other techs are worth more. Espionage would allow
us to efficiently spy,
and Communism would open up a great corruption fighting government
that would make the other islands very productive.

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veto! Communism is not interesting for us (I think so... Do we have to analyze its benefit if we get a second continent? ).
I like that they don't see the value of Sanitation, though
I guess we'll have to get both of them.
Espionage is interesting of course - but I don't see that we have the money to use it...
I hope we agree that Railroads and factories are more important...

3. With the many available techs to research in the IA, FREE thinks a
deal with SABER would be beneficial. Maybe a vassalish agreement, in
which the Blues advance them to the IA and they do some research, and
in exchange we get money and control over the diplomacy.

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We again disagree.
Although we need to discuss again, there's no gain if we have a trade embargo and FREE trades...

4. Spoils of War. FREE has the right to conquer GONG, and The Council can get BABE's land. SABER's land would be up for grabs after bombers and marines.

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Now this is a nice view. The peacefull scientists devide the warmongers' world among them...
I like it.
Especially as I'm pretty sure GONG also knows how to block their shores.
BABE however will likely implode when we plug a needle in their balloon..

Two things we have to make up our mind on:
1. Is Communism better than Republic at some point?
2. How do we treat SABER?

Communism is a great war-time government. It's not so great for research, though, especially when you take into consideration the time in anarchy where we will lose citizens due to the despotism penalty.

Even if communism would provide some production on another continent I can't see it being worth it over turning that continent into scientist / tax farms

Two things we have to make up our mind on:
1. Is Communism better than Republic at some point?
2. How do we treat SABER?

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1. As Aigburth noted, it is more likely that scientist farming the other lands will be more productive in the long run. I'm not a bean counter, though, and it would be prudent for someone to run a CAII simulation.

2. It is imperative that Saber stays cooperative with The Blues. It would hurt us more if Saber were to cooperate with Gong or (dare I say it? ) Babe. The risk we run is that Free and The Council wind up courting Saber too closely - so close that, in fact, Saber comes out further ahead than if Free and The Council were coordinating our diplomacy. We can't let Saber play us off against eachother.

On the other hand, maybe Free and The Council are better off with Saber being relatively backward and slow. To play it that way, The Blues would now be unwilling to trade any techs to anyone (except Education to Babe ) for the rest of the game. Is now the time that we start pulling away from everyone?

We could also stall, and request Free to make stronger arguments for bringing Saber into the Alliance.

We need to be careful in our response to this - at least until we know if we have a domestic supply of coal or not. If we must rely on FREE coal then now is not the time to pull away from them. We also want to encourage them to attack GONG - something must be done to ruin their 100k attempt and it would be nice to be rid of the Spybrary. Even nicer if we don't have to do it.

It looks like we need a different way to handle optional techs in MAAP III. If FREE doesn't want sanitation and we don't want espionage and communism then optional techs should be researched by the team that wants them and not shared under MAAP III. We could simply relax the concept of driving to the modern age as fast as possible and allow each team to research some optional techs. If there is an unbalance we could move military tradition to MAP III and ask FREE to take it over. They seem to want it more than we do now.

The wonders are more difficult. I thought they wanted to use their SGL for Magellan's? If they wait till Hoover does that mean they cant' get a second SGL while the first lives? I've never had an SGL but I'm thinking they may be like great leaders in PTW or vanilla. It has been suggested in the Council that Hoovers is not critical to us. If this is true we can make the concession to them about Hoover and ask for something else.

As for SABER I'd rather not trade theory of gravity until we have secured Newtons (which is still ten turns away). There is not hint of a selling price and how the Council would benefit from such a deal. I suggest stalling here a bit and trying to get an idea of what SABER's role is to be in the new world order where GONG is conquered. This brings me to the proposed division of spoils.

Our strategy calls for no war, doesn't it? We certainly don't need to conquer anyone to launch a space ship. Our reasons for war are to prevent being conquered, secure needed resources or prevent another team from winning. Adding territory does not seem to be imperative for our goal. In a way it is detrimental since (as we see now) military units are costly in shields, gold and beakers. Additional territory would of course help offset this to some extent. I'm not sure if the return is worth the investment though.

We could agree to FREE's suggested split on the theory that we doubt they will be able to conquer GONG so easily and quickly. Both SABER and the Council have shown it is quite possible to repel an invasion on the beaches for now. If GONG hasn't figured this out by now it would be quite simple to explain it to them. We face the same trouble trying to invade BABE but when bombers and marines (another optional tech BTW) are available then we have a better chance of defeating BABE as Paul pointed out. Of course we must still wonder if we will have oil. Is that needed for bombers? It's certainly needed for a modern navy.

An alternative would be to suggest splitting both the BABE and GONG continents between us though this may mean we'd have to take a more active role in the war against GONG. We could also suggest a three way split including SABER if we bring them into the alliance. Having all three of us on these other continents might make it more difficult for either FREE or SABER to try and conquer both for themselves. What is the best strategy to guard against a domination victory while still ensuring GONG's 100k hopes are dashed?

donsig said:

We need to be careful in our response to this - at least until we know if we have a domestic supply of coal or not. If we must rely on FREE coal then now is not the time to pull away from them.

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I don't suggest to pull away from them. I'd even say we should not pull away from SABER if FREE is getting closer to them.

donsig said:

We also want to encourage them to attack GONG - something must be done to ruin their 100k attempt and it would be nice to be rid of the Spybrary. Even nicer if we don't have to do it.

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Absolutely. While they are weaker, I'm pretty sure they will block their coast rather than Wotan will.
We'd have to surprise him. We should send a caravel soon.

donsig said:

It looks like we need a different way to handle optional techs in MAAP III. If FREE doesn't want sanitation and we don't want espionage and communism then optional techs should be researched by the team that wants them and not shared under MAAP III.

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Still there's no reason not to share them. I'd say each of us gets their favs and we share - we'd have to decide which we'd like to take or what to offer for the other.

donsig said:

The wonders are more difficult. I thought they wanted to use their SGL for Magellan's? If they wait till Hoover does that mean they cant' get a second SGL while the first lives? I've never had an SGL but I'm thinking they may be like great leaders in PTW or vanilla.

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They are not. You can have multiple SGLs. I never had but the war academy tells so. People report they even got 2 SGLs in a single turn on Philo and its free tech

donsig said:

It has been suggested in the Council that Hoovers is not critical to us. If this is true we can make the concession to them about Hoover and ask for something else.

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It would be nice but not game breaking. Space Ship parts are cheap and you can plan them with prebuilds.
But we'd have to build some power plants that cost upkeep.

donsig said:

As for SABER I'd rather not trade theory of gravity until we have secured Newtons (which is still ten turns away). There is not hint of a selling price and how the Council would benefit from such a deal. I suggest stalling here a bit and trying to get an idea of what SABER's role is to be in the new world order where GONG is conquered. This brings me to the proposed division of spoils.

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Agree. Let's talk it over for some time...

donsig said:

Our strategy calls for no war, doesn't it? We certainly don't need to conquer anyone to launch a space ship. Our reasons for war are to prevent being conquered, secure needed resources or prevent another team from winning. Adding territory does not seem to be imperative for our goal. In a way it is detrimental since (as we see now) military units are costly in shields, gold and beakers. Additional territory would of course help offset this to some extent. I'm not sure if the return is worth the investment though.

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Tough to say. We should run some analysis on the value of another continent - both in Republic (science farms) and Communism.

donsig said:

We could agree to FREE's suggested split on the theory that we doubt they will be able to conquer GONG so easily and quickly. Both SABER and the Council have shown it is quite possible to repel an invasion on the beaches for now. If GONG hasn't figured this out by now it would be quite simple to explain it to them.

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You think of a backstab? We could test and alert their home defense by sending a couple of caravels...

donsig said:

An alternative would be to suggest splitting both the BABE and GONG continents between us though this may mean we'd have to take a more active role in the war against GONG.

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What's that good for? To take one after the other? There's little sense in sharing continents as this causes more defensive trouble.

donsig said:

We could also suggest a three way split including SABER if we bring them into the alliance. Having all three of us on these other continents might make it more difficult for either FREE or SABER to try and conquer both for themselves. What is the best strategy to guard against a domination victory while still ensuring GONG's 100k hopes are dashed?

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Maybe we can get MT from SABER if we provide some other tech? They will likely research Metallurgy already, right?

First thing to look for in FREE's letters is the signature. If it comes from CommandoBob, then all will be fine. If not, then we can expect some unpleasant surprises.

This one is no different. Even the tone is a bit unfriendly .

• I don't like the SABER deal at all. We have a prebuild going on, and I don't want to lose it. SABER can get ToG for a good price, but only after the prebuild is secure. Why did SABER approach FREE instead of us? Perhaps we need to check up on SABERs progress and see if there is anything fishy...
  Stalling won't really work, unless BABE starts increasing the pace of play. In any case, it would be better if SABER bought from us than from FREE. But how can we accomplish this?
• They have not forgotten about MilTrad. Very subtle hint, that...
• I thought they wanted to use their GL on Magellans? Too bad they changed their mind . Their arguments for Hoover are nonsense of course, but we don't have any better. Except that we could throw the one about "The Council may also want to save the shields in order to rebuild" right back and say that Hoover's will save us shields.
  A reasonably fair way to solve the Hoover problem is the following: one team makes a division of techs, wonders and other rights and obligations into two parts. The other team picks the part that they prefer. The only unfairness is that both teams would probably prefer to be in the second position.
• We should insist on Sanitation. Of course they don't need it, with an ICS empire.
• I don't understand why they want Communism or Espionage, but perhaps that is because I never use them. In any case, it seems a bad choice for a team that wants to go for a spaceship victory. Which, together with their sudden bloodlust, tells that they are not.
  Perhaps we should simply ask for some clarification first: "We don't see the need for communism or espionage. Please explain", but then in General_W's more suave voice of course.
• I don't mind that they want to go to war against GONG. It will take forever . Apparently they also think that SABER needs to be conquered. It looks like they are going to full war mode now, and this suggests a choice for a military victory, but why so openly?

Excellent analysis zyxy.

I'd like to build on that just a bit, if I may.

IF we choose to modify the MAAP III

1. ToG to Saber: No way at all. Not till we've finished Newton for sure. Saber has tried to contact us a couple times about a tech trade, and we've been unwilling to do anything with them. I'm pretty sure FREE is their 3rd choice for a partner (ahead of BABE only). If The Council was interested, we could offer to take over the negotiations on ToG – but how do you balance something like that? FREE would have to agree to let us off the hook on Military Tradition. And what would we pay them for that?
2. Hover Dam: This one is the really sticky issue – as we knew it was likely to be. Perhaps the solution is to go ahead and agree to let them build it, but make them pay dearly for it. Zyxy's idea on asking them to design a fair split is a great rhetorical device to convince them it's a fair deal. I used pretty much this same tactic in the last game of Monopoly I played over Christmas… (I still lost the game though ) In order to off-set Hoover, I think we need lots and lots of gold and a lower research burden.
3. Sanitation, Espionage & Communism: Sanitation is not negotiable, obviously. I think a switch to communism would be a serious mistake for us. It's only a good idea if you plan to be at war for the rest of the game… and apparently FREE is moving that direction. Espionage isn't normally worth it, imo. However – if FREE really wants it – I'd take it from them! Maybe we can offer to include Espionage in the MAAP III, and agree to let them deviate for Communism if they want it. (but leave the trade restrictions in place – so they can't trade it without our approval)
4. Going to War: I agree it's a good thing for us if FREE goes to war – especially against GONG. We ought to very much encourage this line of thinking. It's about time they sunk some of their treasure into warfare. Although, with a switch to communism, the war won't take much of a toll on them beyond the anarchy… and the wasted shields if GONG is blocking their coast. (which an anonymous letter warning them could help insure ) I don't think we should get too excited about attacking BABE ourselves. As has been pointed out – our only realistic shot at winning now lies in a space-race, and war will just distract from that.

IF we choose NOT to modify the MAAP III:
So – one final thing I'd like to throw out there: Now could be our time to switch boats to join with Saber. FREE is getting awfully big and powerful – Saber is much more our size. We've been hesitant to join with them for fear that they'll get too powerful on a conquest binge. Now we seem to be facing the same thing with FREE – but FREE is much more economically powerful than Saber – and therefore potentially more dangerous even lacking the Siphai.

Now, normally, this alone wouldn't be enough to open me up to switching horses… but combined with FREE getting greedy on Hoover Dam – I'm starting to wonder if maybe the time for an alliance shift has come?

I'm willing to bet that Saber would be happy to grant us Hoover in exchange for advancing them to the Industrial Age.
Biggest problem, of course – is that'd we'd have to have one heck of a pre-build to beat FREE and their SGL to Hoover. Hopefully the ToE slingshot would put us far enough ahead to have time… but still, it'd be a pretty exciting deal.

So what does The Council want to do?
Modify the MAAP III?
Switch to Saber?

If we're seriously considering switching sides mid-game, we better review every letter we've sent them, and every letter of every treaty we've signed. I don't want us to wind up breaking a treaty here.

MAAP II ends with the exchange of our bonus techs.
If we don't sign MAAP III with them - our only treaty will be that we have to give 10 turns notice before attacking them. Which I'm not advocating, of course

Yeah - I was just checking the Vault. I thought we had said something to Free about working together until we're the last two teams - or am I thinking of Kiss?

Considering our good historical relations with Free, I think we need to keep the next communication very polite and more question their comments. We have seen sloppy communication from them several times before.
If they are looking to distance themselves from us, what could be their motivation at this point?

I see that Saber are keen to trade with us, which is good news, but I would keep an open mind and not be rushed into some harsh statements just yet. If Free don't play along however....that is another matter...

Why do they want communism and espionage? secret police headquarters, police stations and courthouses will give FREE 3 corruption free cities, with a factory and a free power plant.

FREE will be very tough to beat in a war.

I think it is too early to think of shifting from FREE to SABER. I think between the two of us (the Council and SABER) we have zero eleven tile islands and whatever resources they hold. With BABE holding (and most likely blocking) three of those islands and FREE holding the other two it does make sense for FREE to start thinking about war now. Whether that means they are changing their desired victory condition is questionable though.