Vampire counts

seriously tho Zobies need to be weakend ALOT and maybe +1 Str skellys and make Zombies Necro I and Skellys Necro II because this is my 2nd go at playing Lahmia and Zombie rush is way to powerfull not even to mention you have to know only Necromancy to make them while you have to know Necromancy + alot of other techs to get skellys.

I suggest +1 all skelly Str and -2 Zombie Str

that will make Zombies still better than warriors 2 Str +2 Death + metal weapons -% Diseased and they will pass their disease more often because now the opponent will win a few fights late early game

of course I did beeline for necromancy but any player will beeline for shrine and ether the shrine or temple of Eternal Life (I'm not sure witch) lets you change 1 warrior to a Zombie per turn that's just nuts to have a 4+2 death unit that early. that's just 2 techs away from start.

also make it so Zombies can't get:
First Strike (they are to slow)
Flanking (they are braindead and flanking takes advanced thought)

Updated to include some differentiation between Sylvania and Lamia, and a few other changes (no need for Vampiric necromancy 2).

I got a 7th armybook and the undead still slowly fall apart when thier general dies.

Blood Knights was made when a Blood Dragon Vamp gave the Bloodkiss to a few exceptional knights. (7ths version of Blood Dragon Bloodline without spells)

Corps Cart should replace supply train.

Black Coach is considered a Vampire. (no spell casting ability)

Bat Swarms are undead.

Dire wolves are still fast Calvary.

Varghulf is a Vampire. (I think is 7th version of 6th Bloodline Strigoi without spell casting ability)

there is no more hard defined Bloodlines, you can mix and match.

Necromancers are considered undead.

EVERYTHING in their armys are undead. (except mercenary s.)

every Vamp Civ can have every unit any Vamp civ can have.

they took away Vampire thralls so the above non-spellcasting Vamps are basickly what Thralls used to be like.

spells: Necro or Vampire

Invocation of Nehek: heals and resurrects units (grant Immortal or eternal army to units in stack.)

Raise Dead: (create Zombie.)

Vanhel's Dase Macabre: (haste from FFH, only effects undead.)

spells: Vampire only:

Hand of Dust: Direct damage spell

Gaze of Nagash: Ranged Direct damage spell

Curse of Years: (target slowly dies +10% damage per turn and can not heal by resting.)

Wind of Undeath: Direct Damage and gives a Spirit Host unit with health = to wounds caused by this spell. (I'm not touching this one)

Summon Undead Horde: (create 2-3 Zombies)

the summons are only Zombies and Spirit Hosts. can no longer summon skellys in 7th.

spells: Necro or Vampire

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these are planned for a future patch pretty soon

or maybe:

Raise Dead: (create 1 Zombie 50% health so it has to heal to be full.)

Summon Undead Horde: (create 1-3 Zombies ether 1 at 100% health or 2 at 75% health each or 3 at 50% health each.)

(now refering to first post in this thread)

oh and all undead cause at least fear and are immune to all psychology and Vampires in WH are undead so they can't be charmed.

Necros can be given bloodkiss even tho they are called undead it is because they cause fear and are immune to psychology.

any undead can use undead haste but I think all undead except Necros and Vampires shouldn't benefit from roads or have the benefit lessened for them.

spellcasters and non-spellcasting Vamps are the only ones that can move good on roads that are undead unless there is a spellcaster or non-spellcaster Vamp in the area that the undead is in at the start of it's movement. (sort of like a spell that effects the stack any vamp or spellcaster can use that makes the other Undead able to use roads.)

necromancy spells are already planned youll probably find a lot of powerful spells...

youll probably find a lot of powerful spells...

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Which will no doubt need to be rebalanced downwards

just make them overpowered and balance everyone else by making something of theirs more powerful than it was. only if it is obviously twice as powerful than everyone else would you need to lower a power.

Which will no doubt need to be rebalanced downwards

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hahaha you know me too well ahriman

and no darkform, its always better to balance down when it comes to spells, otherwise i could say well ill just balance all the damaging spells to insta-kill... thats just no fun then, make the game a no brainer... step a research fire magic, step b build mage, step c, burn all your enemies in a blazing inferno of unbalansed-overpoweredness

or scale magic to difficulty lvl. (I normally play lower than normal difficulty.)

scaling magic according to difficulty would be great (but not doable with my limited modding abilities im affraid. maybe as a finishing touch )

or scale magic to difficulty lvl. (I normally play lower than normal difficulty.)

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Why? Easier to just scale the costs of everything else. Keep mages of equal power, but on a low difficulty level you can tech to them quickly and have plenty of spare gold to upgrade them, on a high difficulty level they're harder to come by and that 200 gold for the upgrade is harder to spare.

I think undead should be balanced then after balancing give all Undead Fear and immune to phycolagy -20% str and can't use roads or paths. (Vampires are Undead.) then give Vampires and Liches and Zombie Dragon +40% str and ability to use roads.

after that there should be only a little more to Vampires and Liches and Zombie Dragon to balance unless the fear and immune to Phycology is to mutch then maybe only +30% but I wouldn't go less than +10% after the -% for being Undead. tho the road thing should balance the Immune to Phycology.

this gives makes the strong units stronger and core units weaker than other civs.

of corse you have to give Tomb kings strong units a boost also but I don't think so much because Tomb Kings have every unit but gunpowder and crossbows I think, where Vampire Counts are missing 1 calvary and all archers including Calvary archers. (missing Archers the main city defender and the other unlimited units being weakened is a big drawback, don't get me wrong I do like it like that because it's a sacrifice that makes the Hero s even better.)

I would even go to say if every civ got 3 hero s that Vampire Conts should only get 2. that is 2 for civ to a non Vampire Counts 3 for civ. and 1 of those 2 should be a Adventurer that if you want big you have to upgrade.

if every civ only gets 1 hero then the Vampire hero should be a adventurer that you have to upgrade. (maybe after you upgrade to Necro and give it Bloodkiss it gets a choice of ability s to turn it into 1 of 3 possible named big hero s.)

.... why on earth would you make extra changes *after* going through a balancing process? Thats bizarre. Balancing occurs at a faction-wide level, not just an individual unit leve.

Removing the ability to use roads and trails would make undead insanely frustrating to play, particularly on large maps. All your units only being able to move 1 square per turn even within your own empire? Ugh.

Ahriman said:

.... why on earth would you make extra changes *after* going through a balancing process? Thats bizarre. Balancing occurs at a faction-wide level, not just an individual unit leve.

Removing the ability to use roads and trails would make undead insanely frustrating to play, particularly on large maps. All your units only being able to move 1 square per turn even within your own empire? Ugh.

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maybe -1 move on roads.

and about the roads thing Necro I should have a spell that makes Undead able to use roads 100% chance to ware off per turn, so if you keep a Necromancer or Vampire in each stack they move normaly. (tho AI probably won't understand this so -1 to road or path movement would work on all non-spellcating Undead.)

I don't see why skeletal warriors should be slower than living units in a strategic sense; the skeletons don't need to sleep or rest, so if anything they could cover more ground.

Ahriman said:

I don't see why skeletal warriors should be slower than living units in a strategic sense; the skeletons don't need to sleep or rest, so if anything they could cover more ground.

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the Undead other than spellcasters can't run or march uniformly. it is like getting 25 mentally disabled people together and telling them to walk to the next town as a unit. (only spellcasting Undead are smart and the smart spellcasters do need sleep.)

Dont skeletons or other 'brainless' units see the world in a 'order and excecute' function? If they cant walk in a cohesive group then they couldnt function on a battle as a cohesive group and any enemy charge would destroy them. If I am right in the 'order and excecute' view, they would be excellent in a group (if they are told to fight they will fight, no chance of fleeing). but near worthless if not told what to do. A possible way to show this is to either make them really weak/make them normal strength and make them normal strength/buff them up when a unit with necromancer abilities is in the stack. I think the FfH team solved it with the Luchuirp (golem building dwarves).

I think the FfH team solved it with the Luchuirp (golem building dwarves).

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Actually, the Luuchirp design kindof fails, because the AI does a terrible job with Luuchirp.
I think we make undead troops interesting enough with the Eternal Army mechanic (-20% strength, 25% chance of ressurection if they die).

Ajidica said:

Dont skeletons or other 'brainless' units see the world in a 'order and excecute' function? If they cant walk in a cohesive group then they couldnt function on a battle as a cohesive group and any enemy charge would destroy them. If I am right in the 'order and excecute' view, they would be excellent in a group (if they are told to fight they will fight, no chance of fleeing). but near worthless if not told what to do. A possible way to show this is to either make them really weak/make them normal strength and make them normal strength/buff them up when a unit with necromancer abilities is in the stack. I think the FfH team solved it with the Luchuirp (golem building dwarves).

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brainless Undead understand order and execute but are a shambleing mass so they all swing at diffrent speeds and take a step forword at diffrent speeds. they are actualy a little less skilled than liveing units in the same class and in WH they are immune to phycology BUT if you win the combat 1 of the undead dies per point you win by. (in Civ it would be like if you kill a unit in a Undead stack then all brainless Undead in that stack take collateral damage even if the Unit that won didn't normally cause collateral damage.)

but they are cheaper (so you can have alot of them) and cause fear and a Necromancer or Vampire can raise more durring the battle..