Minor Leaders

Do you have any links to where you found the original art for the civ?

Mostly (maybe wholly) fantasygallery.net and deviantART. (Melante is "Queen of Air and Darkness" from deviantART.)
 
I believe I read somewhere that Orthus was an orc who refused to join the clan... could be mistaken though.
There's a hint of it in Rantine's civilopedia entry. Basically, as hard as it seems, Jonas and Rantine are the civilized, honorable, and cultured ones. Orthus just wants to kill things a lot. Although I'm not sure how much the civilopedia should matter in this case, as according to Capria's entry Orthus is already dead :).
I doubt I'll make him a new civ, but I think the Dervish should be tied to alignment, as well as the lightbringer. Teutorix and the worldspell maybe, but that's quite a bit more work. :lol: And Kane is Neutral, so it would be Good for Varn and Neutral for Kane and Decius.
I had not noticed Kane was neutral. That seems a bit odd given his civilopedia entry. I mainly suggested a Teutorix change because Kane doesn't really sound like an Overcouncil kind of guy.
 
Rantine and Orthus are old rivals who hate each other with a passion. Jonas doesn't really care for either of them, but I think he likes Orthus slightly less.



Orthus's Axe was hafted to what was once the holy scepter of the High Priestess of Bhall, which is why it deals Fire damage. I get the impression that Orthus stole the scepter from its rightful owners, probably killing them in the process. Given his visions from Bhall, I like to think that Rantine is a direct descendant of the high priestly line, and that as a small child he probably saw Orthus massacre his entire family so as to steal that scepter. He has probably spent his entire adult life trying to avenge their deaths and get Orthus's axe so that he can restore the scepter to its rightful place in the hands of the guardians of the eternal flame.


The Clan of Embers is made of the orcs who have remained wholly devoted to Bhall, while the Barbarian orcs are descended from those who were loyal to Bhall but many of them have lost their faith. I tend to think that Orthus is a non-religious man who frequently blasphemes the name of Bhall.


Capria's entry shows Orthus being stabbed, but it never says he died. Kael has stated that he recovered from these wounds.


If you read his pedia entry, you'll see that Jonas has not always had much respect for Bhall and her preists. He may very well have sided with Orthus in his youth, but after he murdered a priestess of Bhall his goddess awakened and demanded he repent and become her first high priest. I believe that actual priestly roles had been reserved for females, although their male relatives would probably assist in the temple too. It is quite possible that the girl he murdered in this entry was a relative of Rantine, so Rantine has witnessed both Orthus and Jonas slay his family.

I suspect that Rantine is among the very few Orcs who is fluent in the noble ancient orcish tongue known only to the priesthood and a few shamen. This is considered a beautiful language even by humans, not like the cacophony of common orcish. Most orcs probably don't even have vocal chords capable of uttering it. This tongue is probably identical to that which the Bannor priests and nobles spoke before the fall, and more closely related to modern Bannor than to common Orcish. However, the harsh realities of hell made the Bannor tongue become much more terse as it was used mostly for barking orders. Old Orcish/Bannor would be far more poetic, best suited for passionate love songs, epics, and emotionally resonant religious hymns. It may sound different from Orcish lips, but it would surely be comprehensible to the Bannor who emerged from hell and would be useful in diplomacy between the Clan and Bannor.


Once the Bannor had escaped Orthus and reorganized (probably recruiting the aid of lesser human tribes) they became a significant threat to the Clan. Rantine convinced Jonas that they were better off making peace with the Bannor than fighting them, so that they could focus on consolidating power among their fellow orcs. The Bannor agreed to a ceasefire and the Clan sent their emissaries to negotiate, but they were betrayed. Orthus has learned of Rantine's plan and decided to ruin it by stepping up his raids on the Bannor after the ceasefire was announced, and by flying the Clan banner when he did so. He massacred some Bannor settlements, and the Bannor believed that Jonas had betrayed them. As such, they in turn killed all those sent to negotiate the treaty (who were probably notable members of the priestly caste, as Old Orcish would be the best language for this negotiation), and stepped up their war on the Clan to a higher level than before. Jonas was furious at Rantine for Claiming the pink-skins could be trusted, and at him self for agreeing. He banished Rantine, and the more civilized orc did not set foot in Clan lands again until he returned with Sheelba. (Jonas didn't want to accept him back then either, but I believe both Jonas and Rantine has received visions from Bhall that it was her will.)
 
Added Thanatos of the D'tesh... Treacherous/Minor. Might change it to be death damage rather than poison, but either way it will be a recon leader rather than arcane. Don't see much point making a new trait either, when this one accomplishes it perfectly. A different name might be nice though.... It's the Greek personification of Death. Kind of like our grim reaper.
 
Added Thanatos of the D'tesh... Treacherous/Minor. Might change it to be death damage rather than poison, but either way it will be a recon leader rather than arcane. Don't see much point making a new trait either, when this one accomplishes it perfectly. A different name might be nice though.... It's the Greek personification of Death. Kind of like our grim reaper.
I see no problem leaving it as poison - the crippling weakness of the D'Tesh so far is their inability to fight things that are resistant to death damage. On the other hand, Treacherous itself could use a different promotion so that you could stack it with the actual poisoned blade spell.
Now that you have two leaders, you could do something like with the Risen Emperor and Korrina: Allow only Thanatos to build the Lord D'Tesh hero, and make a Thanatos hero for D'Tesh to build.
 
A few more ideas! :D

Hmm... for Hafgan, what about instead of granting all units Shock/Combat I, you could make goblins a bit more than a nuisance by allowing them (but not other recon units) to use metal weapons. And then, grant +1 poison strength at the Poisons tech. It'd mean that you'd have pretty much a neverending supply of not-altogether-worthless goblins to hurl at the enemy! Not near so strong as regular orcs, but you can pump them out at a ridiculous rate. Perhaps call it "Horde." Alternatively (or in addition, since Goblins still won't be very strong), give them Financial for hammers, allowing an even greater quantity of units to be brought to bear.

For Kane, I'd think about Decadent-- which would grant +50% (!) gold, but would also grant the Ostentatious promotion to all units, which causes them to give +10 hammers to any unit that kills them (commerce would be better, but I'm not sure it could be done with the current XML setup.) So you'd be more powerful economically, but also a much more tempting target for invaders. (Could be "understood" by the AI just as a diplomatic penalty.)

For Emma, how about Shamanistic? Grants Spirit Guide to all animal units, and maybe turns them into Beasts.

For Mahon the Butcher, give him Bloodthirsty-- grants a building that gives -80% unhappiness from rushing buildings, plus a promotion to all units granting +5 food from each combat. You'd really have no end to potential uses for the surplus population... :devil:

Veinhunter could have a promotion, granted to all units, that gives the ability to Move Impassible. Plus, an Autoacquire/Mustmaintain that grants stealth in mountains. (Call it "underminer." :D)

I was also thinking that Furia the Mad could have Adaptive/Aggressive, but also be Psychotic, which causes non-Hero, non-Arcane units in enemy territory to randomly go Enraged in enemy territory.

Perhaps a trait for Riuros of the Illians, to be combined with Barbarian: Allow him to build Frostling units, but these units would come with a promotion with a 100% betrayal chance (so they'd immediately go barbarian.) An easy way to harass the neighbors! You could sweeten the deal by making the frostlings half-off (or 2/3 off) what a normal unit of that strength would cost.

Omniscient: Allows you to build a building that grants units in the city +9 to sight range; grants all units Sentry.

Anyway, just a few more thoughts. :D

EDIT

Malchavic:
Conjuror: Grants "strength of the void" to all units that come out of Planar Gates; say, +2 unholy strength? Additionally, double planar gate build speed. Makes the PG a really big part of the strategy!

Gosea:
Prophetic: First, +100% to the building of Savants, and Second, allows a semi-clone of the Stigmata on the Unborn (in that it ONLY grants the beakers-per-city, not the mana or AC.) Best spread that AV far and wide!
 
A few more ideas! :D

Hmm... for Hafgan, what about instead of granting all units Shock/Combat I, you could make goblins a bit more than a nuisance by allowing them (but not other recon units) to use metal weapons. And then, grant +1 poison strength at the Poisons tech. It'd mean that you'd have pretty much a neverending supply of not-altogether-worthless goblins to hurl at the enemy! Not near so strong as regular orcs, but you can pump them out at a ridiculous rate. Perhaps call it "Horde." Alternatively (or in addition, since Goblins still won't be very strong), give them Financial for hammers, allowing an even greater quantity of units to be brought to bear.

Hmm... I like it, but I think I prefer the Scorched Earth idea, given that his name is Hafgan the Purger. Maybe a goblin leader?

For Kane, I'd think about Decadent-- which would grant +50% (!) gold, but would also grant the Ostentatious promotion to all units, which causes them to give +10 hammers to any unit that kills them (commerce would be better, but I'm not sure it could be done with the current XML setup.) So you'd be more powerful economically, but also a much more tempting target for invaders. (Could be "understood" by the AI just as a diplomatic penalty.)

Sounds interesting, might go with it...

For Emma, how about Shamanistic? Grants Spirit Guide to all animal units, and maybe turns them into Beasts.

I like this one. :goodjob:

For Mahon the Butcher, give him Bloodthirsty-- grants a building that gives -80% unhappiness from rushing buildings, plus a promotion to all units granting +5 food from each combat. You'd really have no end to potential uses for the surplus population... :devil:

Mahon is already Tyrant, removing unhappiness entirely but granting a large amount of unhealth.

Veinhunter could have a promotion, granted to all units, that gives the ability to Move Impassible. Plus, an Autoacquire/Mustmaintain that grants stealth in mountains. (Call it "underminer." :D)

Already has Production-Financial. :lol:

I was also thinking that Furia the Mad could have Adaptive/Aggressive, but also be Psychotic, which causes non-Hero, non-Arcane units in enemy territory to randomly go Enraged in enemy territory.[/QUOTE]

That sounds interesting....
 
So, how ado they enter the game? Do they just arrive when the Gate is completed, or can they be built if they manage to enter the game at the start or as a liberated colony? Are they the same or seperate unitclasses? Will Resurrection bring back the right hero based on the leader? (Have you thought about making Resurrection maybe bring their traits back?)




I believe that this in def cannotTrain(self,argsList): of CvGameUtils.py successfully blocks non-Auric Illian leaders from building Auric, yet I cannot seem to get the second part to stop people from building Priests of Winter before the ritual is completed. I think that I shouldn't even need to use python to require that because I created a SPECIALUNIT_WINTER allowed by the ritual (the way Nukes worked in vanilla, but not BtS), but that doesn't seem to do anything either.

Code:
		if eUnit == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_AURIC'):
			if pPlayer.getLeaderType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('LEADER_AURIC'):
				return True

		if eUnit == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PRIEST_OF_WINTER'):
			if not CyGame().isProjectMaxedOut('PROJECT_THE_WHITE_HAND'):
				return True
 
So, how ado they enter the game? Do they just arrive when the Gate is completed, or can they be built if they manage to enter the game at the start or as a liberated colony? Are they the same or seperate unitclasses? Will Resurrection bring back the right hero based on the leader? (Have you thought about making Resurrection maybe bring their traits back?)

They come in upon completion of the gate like Basium. They're all unitclass_basium, so they directly replace him, but I don't think that will cause a problem with spawning them via python. Resurrection will rez the correct hero, mostly because I saw how the Scions did it. :lol: And I don't think I'll allow their traits to return with resurrection... The civ wouldn't have the same confidence in the leader.

I believe that this in def cannotTrain(self,argsList): of CvGameUtils.py successfully blocks non-Auric Illian leaders from building Auric, yet I cannot seem to get the second part to stop people from building Priests of Winter before the ritual is completed. I think that I shouldn't even need to use python to require that because I created a SPECIALUNIT_WINTER allowed by the ritual (the way Nukes worked in vanilla, but not BtS), but that doesn't seem to do anything either.

Code:
		if eUnit == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_AURIC'):
			if pPlayer.getLeaderType() != gc.getInfoTypeForString('LEADER_AURIC'):
				return True

		if eUnit == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_PRIEST_OF_WINTER'):
			if not CyGame().isProjectMaxedOut('PROJECT_THE_WHITE_HAND'):
				return True

That looks like it SHOULD work, but I've never messed with projects so I don't know. :lol:
 
Hmm... I like it, but I think I prefer the Scorched Earth idea, given that his name is Hafgan the Purger. Maybe a goblin leader?

Oh, I was thinking in addition to the whole "autoraze" deal. (Mainly I was just thinking to replace the Combat/Shock troops right out of the gate, because I feel like there'd be no way to defend against that early-midgame. Also, it'd make the Aggressive trait not do anything for you, and you'd almost inevitably get it.)

Come to think, you could also make an additional Warrens-type building that does effectively the same thing, but for Goblins only. (with Smelting, perhaps.) :D That might make them viable late-game...

The other ideas sound pretty neat! Can't wait to try them. :goodjob:

EDIT:'

Oh, also, did you see the Sheiam trait possibilities? (I edited those on to the end just two minutes before you posted.)
 
Oh, I was thinking in addition to the whole "autoraze" deal. (Mainly I was just thinking to replace the Combat/Shock troops right out of the gate, because I feel like there'd be no way to defend against that early-midgame. Also, it'd make the Aggressive trait not do anything for you, and you'd almost inevitably get it.)

Come to think, you could also make an additional Warrens-type building that does effectively the same thing, but for Goblins only. (with Smelting, perhaps.) :D That might make them viable late-game...

The other ideas sound pretty neat! Can't wait to try them. :goodjob:

EDIT:'

Oh, also, did you see the Sheiam trait possibilities? (I edited those on to the end just two minutes before you posted.)

I had not, but I like them both. :goodjob:

A second warrens for goblins.... :eek: Dear god, you'd be swimming in a sea of the damn things. :lol: That's just interesting enough that I think I'll have to make a goblin leader.
 
No, I had made it repeatable at once point but when I added that code I moved the world limit back to 1. I just decided to give it a team limit of 1 too, but haven't had time to test it since then.

That is a bit off topic though.




Given the last question in the Trivia thread, maybe Sallos should be based on the Angel of Death too.
 
I like the idea of Orthus for a Clan of Embers minor leader. Perhaps he could bne unable to build rantine, but would get to fight on the battlefield as a hero himself. With the axe and all.

Acheron, I disagree with though. If anything, I'd prefer to see Acheron as leader of his own civ sometime.
 
I like the idea of Orthus for a Clan of Embers minor leader. Perhaps he could bne unable to build rantine, but would get to fight on the battlefield as a hero himself. With the axe and all.

Acheron, I disagree with though. If anything, I'd prefer to see Acheron as leader of his own civ sometime.

yeah that would be cool. Basically clan of embers with a nasty surprise. Or give him conqueror.

Orthus as leader should follow along the lines of Hyborem, he dies, you lose traits?
 
For Kane: Is it possible to have resources from other cities counting like the capital would have it in it's cross? So the capital would have like 10 corn etc. Then make his capital work the third ring and all other cities just the first, like the Jotnar's. So you would have a super capital, but not just a Kuriotates copy and it's in line with his entry.
 
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