Heroes in the mod

and Vlad von Carstein of Sylvania

Another idea:
Rather than Immortal, we could have a "Defender of the Forests" promotion, which functioned as immortality but ONLY if the unit dies within your cultural borders.

here is Marie Varusla, for Tilea. i had nothing canon to work off of so she is based loosely on a few famous female pirates in real life. more ideas are welcome.

Another idea:
Rather than Immortal, we could have a "Defender of the Forests" promotion, which functioned as immortality but ONLY if the unit dies within your cultural borders.

Click to expand...

thats perfect for woodelves. agreed.

EDIT: i had a shot with Estalia's Hero too, Tomás Ojeda. this guy has a bit more fluff to base him off



EDIT 2: i think thats probably enough for now. i went a bit over board there. i only intended to do up to sylvania

A few comments, particularly on the equipment effects; see the post 37.

cool. some comments on those changes.

Katarin -
'chill land' only lasting for 5 turns would make for some major micro management. in FfH thier temporary terraforming spells only last for 20 turns and that seems balanced enough. id rather it be 10 at least if not 20 turns.
'frozen gifts' Very good point. perhaps make it just give the city +X% hammers while the Caster is present in the city? say 15-20%?
'ice wall' nice change.

Thorgrim -
'The Dammaz Kron' i actually had a fair bit of trouble thinking of an equipment that would be flavourful and fun for thorgrim. i originally considered making the 'read from the book of grudges' think a spell only Thorgrim can cast, but decided to make it into equipment. Do you think making it a standard spell would be overpowering? the issue of other civs taking it and them reading the book did cross my mind though...
We could give him a Hammer that has Meteoric Iron affinity, or the ability to craft Runes at the cost of gold...

Marie Varusla-
i entirely forgot about making her able to enter coastal tiles. lol
'Broach of Sartosa' yeh i was sraping the bottom of the barrel for something good for that one. We could possibly make it grant a passive effect that when the bearer is in a coastal city, that city is able to build Pirate themed units linked to techs.

Tomás Ojeda -
'Magickus Rex' How about +1 Fire strength, +25% vs Arcane Units, able to target weakest unit in a stack (similar to an assassin) making it a good anti-arcane item?

one other thing i just realsied, (almost) all the heroes strengths are identical. 4 - 6 - 9. perhaps we should make a bit more variation. ie give Thorgrim one more defence and one less attack etc. mix it up a bit.

Tzar Boris Bokha of Kislev


Mannfred von Carstein


Baragor of the Dwarves


Borgio the Besieger of Tilea


Dardelan of Estalia

I'll start with the Vampire Counts, I can do the skeleton thingy for mannfred's sword with a PostCombatWin and some python, should be easy.

I *might* also be able to limit heroes to a leader...I'll dig up some of the regicide code I used in my mpmod for ffh.

Oh and I put in a request to join the team group

I'll start with the Vampire Counts, I can do the skeleton thingy for mannfred's sword with a PostCombatWin and some python, should be easy.

Click to expand...

before you go ahead and do Mannfred wait for Ahrimans stamp of aproval. there are probably a few things that need to be changed

there is code to be able to limit heroes to a leader in the Scions python code of FF. they achieved that with the Emperor and the other leader-chick-hero-whose-name-i-forget.

of course, we will need the actual civs and leaders coded in before we can tie the heroes to the correct leaders

'chill land' only lasting for 5 turns would make for some major micro management. in FfH thier temporary terraforming spells only last for 20 turns and that seems balanced enough. id rather it be 10 at least if not 20 turns.

Click to expand...

My thought was that the purpose of this spell was to provide favorable terrain for your troops to fight in during wartime, not as a peacetime spell you would want to cast (tundra should never be better than grasslands).
I don't think there are FFH spells that change *9* tiles at a time and last for 20 turns are there?
It would be far too easy to destroy enemy economies with that. I can easily imagine starving the enemy empires to death by sending Katarin running through their lands and turning their entire civ into tundra.

We could give him a Hammer that has Meteoric Iron affinity

Click to expand...

This sounds good, and suits him pretty well.
Since his built-in ability is basically to have good equipment before you get it, once you DO get meteoric iron he'd be pretty weak. This would help counteract that; once you get meteoric iron, he starts increasing in strength.

i entirely forgot about making her able to enter coastal tiles. lol
'Broach of Sartosa' yeh i was sraping the bottom of the barrel for something good for that one. We could possibly make it grant a passive effect that when the bearer is in a coastal city, that city is able to build Pirate themed units linked to techs.

Click to expand...

That sounds like a lot of work.
Another idea: how about the Broach gives Water Walking and double moves in coastal tiles? And take the enter coastal tiles away from the hero.

'Magickus Rex' How about +1 Fire strength, +25% vs Arcane Units, able to target weakest unit in a stack (similar to an assassin) making it a good anti-arcane item?

Click to expand...

Able to target weakest unit in the stack is not a good idea for equipment. Too easy to give it to some other very high strength unit. Assassin dragons? Assassin steamtanks? Think of all the problems in FFH that came from Alkazan's Mirror; that equipment caused so many potential exploits that had to be squashed.
+% bonus vs arcane units is also pretty useless, since arcane units are already low strength. The only reason for it would have been with the marksman upgrade. Maybe for flavor though. How about also bonus vs disciple units? Would be more useful, and obviously the Inquisition would hate the priests of other religions as heretics.

one other thing i just realsied, (almost) all the heroes strengths are identical. 4 - 6 - 9. perhaps we should make a bit more variation. ie give Thorgrim one more defence and one less attack etc. mix it up a bit.

Click to expand...

I'll think about it. Though there IS some variation actually, mostly due to weapons possibilities.
I was thinking greenskin and chaos heroes would be better suited to higher attack values/lower defense values, dwarven heroes would be more likely to get higher defense.
Thorgrim actually starts at strength 6 because of the iron weapons.

@Mimic
You have group membership now.
Take a look at this thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313999
in particular.
Let me look through the new hero proposals and I'll add them into the earlier post once I'm done with them.

Ok, done with the proposals.
Some very good ideas PL.

Even if you want heroes to automatically gain upgrades with time; making three separate unitclasses for every possible hero isn't necessary & is probably limiting your design.

Fall Further promotions tags allow plenty of scope for designing Promotions that get applied automatically when given customizable sets of conditions (i.e. if unittype=HERO_KARLFRANZ and has TECH_MONSTERBREEDING and access to BONUS_AERIE, then add PROMOTION_GRIFFON_MOUNT). Promotions can also be set to change the art used for the unit. This would allow for all kinds of cool possibilities for further differentiating civs giving them unique tweaks for their hero at specific techs or resources (a bonus for Magnus the Pious with TECH_FANATICISM, some special equipment for Thorgrim with TECH_ADVANCED_SMITHING and access to BONUS_BRIGHTSTONE, etc.) If you really want & have the time to implement 3 separate units for every hero then you can, but it's probably needlessly adding work and bloat to the unitlist while limiting the design features you can employ.

Closely go over all the tags available in the promotions XML and units XML in Fall Further in advance of deciding what you want to implement; that will probably result in a lot different decisions than if you tried to do it before thoroughly going over all the XML.

Also go over the Commander features which would seem tailor-made for Heroes (i.e. Magnus the Pious could provide Fanaticism combat bonus to units in his army) since in tabletop WH a prinicipal role of heroes is to provide various leadership and support benefits on other troops in their army rather than act as a standalone combat unit.

I see what you mean with promotions, and the risk of bloat. ~14 factions * 2 heroes * 3 eras = 84 units !!!!
This is part of why I thought we should stick to one hero.

The advantages of creating 3 unit classes (like for the Scions hero) is that:
a) We can mitigate the AI's tendency to throw its heroes away by allowing them to build the second version even if the first died, and allowing them to build the third version even if the second died. This ensures that we will continue to see AI heroes into the late game, which adds to fun factor.
b) We can have different models for the different eras. I think there is significant fun factor from having a late-game model mounted on a griffon or dragon.
c) We can change unit class (eg melee -> shock cavalry) for different versions, and have different abilities.
d) The upgrade possibilities are transparent to the player. Its easier to understand that at Advanced Smithing tech Thorgrim can upgrade to a tougher version than it is to have some python code or whatever that gives Thorgrim extra promotions when you research a new tech.

What do people think, are these worth having the civiliopedia unit page be stuffed full of different era heroes?

a) Seems kind of strange to keep rebuilding post-death in different versions, but if something like this is desired a simpler way is probably the FfH2 Immortal promotion mechanic, which I believes lets a unit be reborn once in its capitol on death. The latest FF has apparently added some AI tweaks specific to its management of "Immortal" units so if they die and get reborn, the AI is more defensive with them to avoid losing their last life. Also, designing heroes more as Commanders than regular standalone combat units and/or having a Hero promotion make them the last in stack to be attacked could help.

b) FF promotions can be set to apply different graphics to the unit if desired, so it's the same either way. I'm betting it will be awhile before someone volunteers to make tons of customized hero graphics though

c) combat type can also be changed by FF promotions (eg see my previous post re Quadruped mutation)

d) all promotions (whether earned w experience or automatically applied with criteria) can be made solely in XML in FF with no python hacks involved; so it should automatically show up in the pedia / techtree as usual (as w other FfH promotions enabled by techs). many XML changes will automatically show up in mouseover help blurbs etc, I'm not sure whether or not the FF DLL has added autohelp for new tags yet; if not you could add help manually if you really want

a) I worry that the immortal promotion would just have the AI get them killed twice in the early game. Whereas this mechanic paces them over the game.

FFH at least has multiple heroes, generally an early game one and a late game one, so even when they get their early game hero killed they can still potentially build another.

Heroes will also be even more likely to die here because they will be less powerful, because promotions are at the 10% level not the 20% level. So highly promoted units aren't as powerful in warhammer as they would be in FFH.

But if the AI is sufficiently improved in FF....

I think making heroes into just commander promotions would disappoint a lot of Warhammer fans, who really want to feel like they're killing stuff with their big epic hero. But making defend last sounds promising.
Plus, assassins in Warhammer really are usually anti-hero units. So this would be particularly appropriate.

b) True, on both counts.
c) Interesting.

d) Could we make the promotions appear as selectable free promotions when the appropriate tech was gained?

So for eg:
Karl Franz could be a Strength 4 melee unit with the hero promotion and 1-shot immortality and the ability to cast "Presence of the Emperor".

When you have both the tactics tech and the stirrups tech (or we could make the requirements all just single tech without too much difficulty), then he gains the possibility to get the Karl Franz II promotion (with a better name), which gives +2 strength, -20% vs melee, +20% vs archers, +1 movement and changes the unit class to shock cavalry. This appears as a selectable promotion in the normal way that you get promotions, but doesn't take a normal level-up slot.

Then when you have the military tradition and monster breeding techs (or just 1 tech if its an issue), then he can get the Karl Franz III promotion, which gives a further +2 strength, +1 first strike, +1 movement and the flying ability.

I definitely have an open mind on this; it could be a cleaner way to implement this. It seems like we could have nearly everything in the multiple-version design, but with only 1/3 as many unit entries.

The biggest problem I see is conveying to the player what tech(s) are needed for the hero to upgrade. I guess we could just include that info in the civilopedia text entry.

I don't think there are FFH spells that change *9* tiles at a time and last for 20 turns are there?

Click to expand...

good point... can we settle with a random period between 5 and 10 turns? if i cant code that ill stick with 5.

This sounds good, and suits him pretty well.
Since his built-in ability is basically to have good equipment before you get it, once you DO get meteoric iron he'd be pretty weak. This would help counteract that; once you get meteoric iron, he starts increasing in strength.

Click to expand...

awesome.

That sounds like a lot of work.
Another idea: how about the Broach gives Water Walking and double moves in coastal tiles? And take the enter coastal tiles away from the hero.

Click to expand...

hmm im not sure. does anyone else have ideas?

Able to target weakest unit in the stack is not a good idea for equipment. Too easy to give it to some other very high strength unit. Assassin dragons? Assassin steamtanks? Think of all the problems in FFH that came from Alkazan's Mirror; that equipment caused so many potential exploits that had to be squashed.
+% bonus vs arcane units is also pretty useless, since arcane units are already low strength. The only reason for it would have been with the marksman upgrade. Maybe for flavor though. How about also bonus vs disciple units? Would be more useful, and obviously the Inquisition would hate the priests of other religions as heretics.

Click to expand...

all good points. i agree with +vs disciples.

a) id prefer immortal to be unique to a few heroes and items, not all.

d) some additional commander abilities would be awesome, but not as primary abilities.

good point... can we settle with a random period between 5 and 10 turns?

Click to expand...

Sure. It will need playtest anyway.

awesome.

Click to expand...

Can we get a name for the hammer?

hmm im not sure.

Click to expand...

The idea was an extension on yours; the broach basically gives access to a pirate fleet to ferry you around, hence why you can travel on water tiles.
But I'm open to suggestions.

a) id prefer immortal to be unique to a few heroes and items, not all.

Click to expand...

I think having a one-shot immortal on all heroes would massively help the AI with them, particularly if the AI script changes once its gone.
We can easily have a second shot immortal for a few heroes that actually have supernatural immortality powers, and more permanent ones like the Carstein Ring.
[Actually; potential problem with the Carstein Ring; when you die but are ressurected with immortality, don't you still normally drop any equipment that you had? Is this ok? Or would we need to create some extra script that moved the ring with him?]

Think of the first "immortality" as basically being a free reroll chance; the hero has a scrape with death but is only seriously injured and escapes. I think this is pretty common both in Warhammer and in heroic fantasy in general.

I feel pretty strongly that we will *either* need 1 shot immortality for heroes, OR we will need to have the 3-era heroes that are rebuildable if the previous one is lost.
Otherwise the AI could easily lose their heroes in the first 100 turns and never be seen again.

A third possibility; we could go with the single hero unit and advancement through promotions, and no immortality, BUT have an event (either for everyone or AI only) that automatically spawned a new version of the hero with the advancement promotions once the new advancement levels were lost.
So for eg; the AI builds Karl Franz, it gains a few levels with him, but then goes off and gets him killed. He's dead. Then the AI researches Tactics tech and Horseriding Tech, which triggers an event "Return of Karl Franz". The event requires that Karl Franz not be in existence, and then creates a new level 0 Karl Franz with the Karl Franz 2 promotion.
We could then have or not have a second version of the event that triggers with the military tradition and monster breeding techs.

d) some additional commander abilities would be awesome, but not as primary abilities.

Click to expand...

I think what he meant was for heroes basically to be non-combat units that you can attach to other units as leaders to give them an extra benefit, rather than combat units in their own right. So like Great Commanders in FFH, rather than Heroes in FFH with the hero promotion.
I don't think this would be as much fun.

Can we get a name for the hammer?

Click to expand...

how about Laihtendrung, aka Arianka's Hammer (its meant to be a sword but i like it as a hammer more ). it is made from "Laihtero which is the rarest form of Gromril ever known.

In fact only one item is known to have been forged from it; Arianka's Hammer (or actually a sword), Laihtendrung. Very little is known about this material save for what a few legends have to say on the subject. It is said that only one dwarf at any one time knows the secret of the refining process to create Laihtero from raw Gromril. It is also said that this dwarf may make one item of this metal in his lifetime because it takes his entire lifetime to make it.

Dwarven Loremasters have speculated that Laihtero is Law in its purest form and that it will not accept magic enchantments of any kind. It is a completely translucent metal and radiates Law to those beings who are sensitive to such things. It is also said that some essence of a god of Law is necessary in the refining process to create this metal. Laihtero is undoubtedly stronger than Mithril and Adamant and probably weighs even less. As it is pure Law, it is probably drains any magic completely and has great powers against Chaos."

The idea was an extension on yours; the broach basically gives access to a pirate fleet to ferry you around, hence why you can travel on water tiles.
But I'm open to suggestions.

Click to expand...

hmm true, its not a bad idea. itll do

I think having a one-shot immortal on all heroes would massively help the AI with them

Click to expand...

i wonder if its possible to give the heroes a one shot immortality if theyre controlled by AI only... that would be better in my oppinion. perhaps apply the immortality to the AI Heroes through events that require an AI player and a unit with the Hero promotion and which can only occur once for each civ, and have it apply a promotion 'Second Wind' to the Hero? unless theres an easier way to do it through python.

What about the event idea?
It should be easy enough to create events that only proc for AI players.

Basically, create one event for each hero, that triggers when you get the tech for the level 2 version, and spawns a replacement hero if the leader requirement for the hero is met but the hero does not exist.

How do you feel about the 3 units vs promotions question?

We should see what others think, and then I'll redesign as appropriate and Mimic can get started on some coding.

Also, we're still missing hero designs for:
Kurgan, Norsca, Hung, High Elves, Ind, Nippon, Cathay, Ogre, Amazon, Lizard, Khemri, Lamia, Araby, Chaos Dwarf, Beastmen, Ork and Goblin.
Geez, do we really have 26 factions? Kinda crazy. Makes an even stronger case for only 1 hero per faction, and only 1 unit per hero (do the rest with promotions).

High Elves, Ork, Kurgan should be the priority.

We should also pick which of the existing ones we should code first. Probably whichever is easier to implement.

Of the current list, this is probably: Karl Franz, Orion (though either would be doable), Malekith (either doable but Morathi probably overpowered with current dark elf spell strength), Louen (though either doable), Boris, Baragor (either doable but the meteoric iron mechanics will take longer to get working), Mannfred (either doable), Marie, Dardelan (either doable).

Mimic, which do you think would be easier to code?