Faster Early Expansion

Originally posted by Anglophile
Please ignore the fact that I can't spell granary; hopefully the content is better than the spelling.:o


Well now you tell us! And I'm already half way through a game pumping out Grans from my Graneries.;)

It's not so bad though. They may be slow, in their little wheelchairs, but they are AWESOME in combat! Go Granny go!
:crazyeyes

My solution to the typo problem is using the "edit" button to go back and change the post later. If the argument isn't going my way, I can even go back and reverse what I said! (Not that I'd be such a cad of course.... ):D
 
Originally posted by Divis
"i tend to neglect granary's"

Zoolook,

How could you "neglect" granaries? They Halve the time it takes you to grow your city!?!? I don't understand this...

-J.:confused:

Easy..early in the game you concentrate on popping out settlers. If your city is on some good land..you can easily just get a build order of spearman settler spearman settler..by the time you build that spearman your pop gets to 3 and you can build another settler. I love sending out spearmen with the settlers..and they take a while to build..but when you plop that city down they have secent protection and can build a temple or barracks or something.
 
I tend to build: Warrior, Hoplite (spearman), settler to start.

In other cities: Warrior, Worker, Hoplite, Settler and try to gobble up as much room as I can.

I also will try and knock out the very close neighbors, or at least grab their capitol. If it fails, you can usually make peace very easy in the early stages of the game.

Depends on the available space, if there's a lot I will not build granaries until I've settled down everywhere I can, or if it's looking good, start Pyramids kind of early.

The aggressive expansion by the AI is one of my favorite (and somewhat frustrating in a good way) additions in Civ III. Civ II, it was just too easy swallow up land.
 
Excilus has some good points, but there a number of traps for new players if you take this approach too literally.

Firstly, there are 16 civs and only 5 of them start with the ability to build granaries. So the majority of you won’t be able to build them until after you’ve researched Pottery.

He also suggests that you shouldn’t go warrior, settler, settler, settler but doesn’t say why. Generally the answer is that (as you need a city with a population of 3) the turns left to build the settler can race down to 1 more and then stop while the population catches up. This wastes potential production time. (The way to assess this is by looking at the 3 figures on the city name box).

Warrior, settler, settler can actually work fine if you have the right starting conditions – even settler, settler, settler can sometimes pay off. The key is in understanding all the inter-relationships between shield and food production and the potential of the site you have chosen. A good fast start will benefit pretty much any long term goal, and if you can get those first few settlers out quickly you will soon have a crop of other cities to help produce things. Your first city’s build order can be changed considerably as soon as it gets some support.

I don’t believe that there is necessarily an overall ideal build order for faster expansion, or anything else (Civ 3 is too complex for that). But there are a variety of better build orders to suit the site you are on, the civ you are playing, and your ultimate overall goals E.g. if you don’t have a military campaign in mind you may not want to make as many early military units. There are lots of paths, and none of them seem to work for every occasion.

The computer will also choose which tiles your new citizens start working on, so if it doesn’t suit your objectives then change it. You may want to maximise production of food, shields, or even commerce, depending on your goals. Of course you won’t always find that a beneficial change is available but, depending on the site, it can sometimes make a big difference.

And don’t automatically think that you have failed because your city build rate didn’t always match the AI. The AI has been given a fairly snappy build rate (plus some free starting units at harder levels) presumably because the designers feel that the player should be able to balance this by beating the AI regularly in other strategic matters. It might build quickly but it doesn’t always build smart, or necessarily know what best to do with the cities once it’s got them. You may get a lousy start position (e.g. stuck with a lot of jungle) where you are unlikely to match the early build rate of some of the AI civs no matter what you do.

I hope that this sounds constructive, rather than just picky, but I do believe that the best thing that any player can do is to study all the details of the equation rather than rely on a formula approach. It’s better than a build and hope style, but it can also lead to a lot of missed opportunities in a game as complex Civ3.

For some more thoughts on this – including fairly detailed posts from Anglophile and others – you might like to check out the thread below, (where Excilus posted the same suggestions as above).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11753
 
I just played a diety start game and tried the build order specified. I re-tried building warriors warriors warriors but I cannot keep up with the ai civs. They surround me on a huge map at startup.

Now, I'm going in one more time, and I'm gonna try this:
Add the first worker to the first city and pop rush a settler when I reach three citizens. This could get me my second city faster than the ai civs (at diety).
 
There's one other drawback to making granaries early: they cost money to maintain. Don't get me wrong, I like early granaries in some circumstances, but I'm also quite obsessive about my budget in the early game. I like to have money to buy techs off the AI, to upgrade units, etc.
 
I usually try to get specialized production from my cities. From my capitol, I'll try to calculate how many turns until I hit pop3, and what I'll have time to build before it's time to start my first settler. In this, I try to consider what my worker can improve during this time, which tiles will be worked, etc.

By the time that settler is done, I should have surveyed most of the area immediately around my capitol, either with a scout or by building a warrior right away. So I look for two nearby areas for new cities.

First, a good food-producing site, particularly with food bonuses that will allow irrigation bonuses under Despotism. Here I will build a city devoted mainly to producing settlers and workers. Naturally, I try to make sure there's enough shield production as well, but food is primary. Flood plains next to hills is the best, grassland with cows or wheat is also very good.

Second, a site with lots of grassland/shields and a mix of forest and/or hills for shield production. This will be my unit-producer, for either military units, or maybe wonders if I think I can get them.

In all cases, rivers are always a bonus. Not just for the trade, but for defensive bonuses and for turning deserts into flood plains. I try to plan roads to minimize the early game "bridgeless" penalty.

From then on, whenever I choose a city site, I try to think how that city will grow and what kind of balance it'll have between shields/food/trade and what it will contribute best to my civilization.
 
I'm new to this site so bear with me...I am also a complete Civ addict and 03.00am nights are the norm these days!!

Anyway, I already feel indebted to the poster of the revised build order including granaries, though I also agree with the threads on 'balance' ie that the granary build itself takes time that could be spent on another settler. Personally I have found the AI 'rapid build' at the start of the game both annoying and massively challenging. I play on regent level at the moment and never seem to be able to build wonders, or at least the ones I want to! But anyway, I for one was happily going along in Civ2 early build mode and couldn't work out why I always lagged behind (even though I still seem to!!)

From one recent game I have found that having a capital of pop size >5 tends to yield better results and wonders, rather than stifling it's growth with settlers galore.

Leaders? Blimey, I NEVER seem to get them...I have been playing almost solidly for one month now and have only ever received one leader in heaven knows how many games!!! Fortifying by a barbarian camp, does this work really? I often find my elite spearman or warrior becomes 'battered' by up to 20 barbarian horsemen and the chance of a leader is gone.

Also, irrigate or mine? I read that many prefer mining at the start for production purposes (typically, I go off and irrigate everything almost, just as in Civ2!!), so am I going wrong by not mining early on??!

Finally, United Nations.....once built (by anyone) is there a time delay between building and voting, or does one have the ability / choice of not holding an election? My space race victory was achieved even though someone had built the UN? Was I lucky or was there a reason why the UN leader vote didn't take place?


Thanks everyone in advance!!
Any more tips would be greatly appreciated!!
 
JJT1603, I just learned that fighting barbarians doesn't generate leaders, though it will make some of your units elite. To get a leader, apparently you have to use elite soldiers vs other civilizations.

As for the UN, it sounds like your opponent just didn't hold the election. He or she may not have been very popular. When I get it, I don't hold elections unless I've been really good. <g>

You may indeed be irrigating too much. I irrigate less than I did in Civ 2. In particular, when I get a grassland square with a 'dot' in the middle of it -- meaning it generates a shield as well as food -- I almost always mine it. That square will generate enough food to sustain its worker, and it will generate production.

I guess one CAN make a case for irrigating rather than mining when one is far from the home city; in that case, corruption kills off most production, but it doesn't affect food supplies. I dunno; what do others think?
 
On the food subject I agree with Grotius, yet there is another factor to keep in mind in early expansion. Where is the Forbidden Palace going to be! Nowadays I decide this quite early and only 8 cities are required before you can start building.

So the approach here is to find an area that is likely to become under control as you expand, build a city at a good food and resource location and on a river bank (flood plains surround by hills are superspots). It has to be about 12 squares away from your capitol on a large map. Rush build a temple to give it cultural protection and start building Forbidden Palace when corruption is still low and shields available. As you expand around this City it will become a power area early in the game!

And collect luxuries. It takes pressure of building temples and gives WLTKD as soon as a city reaches 6 pop.
 
As for irrigation, keep in mind that you gain more benefit from mines on grassland until you switch out of Despotism to Republic or Monarchy. If you are plains, then irrigation is essential. As for the fast build out, I will repeat what I find to be an effective method. I play on Emperor difficulty, random civ, standard size map. I usually build warrior, warrior, settler. Repeat. I plunk down these early settlers one square from the capital on the diagonal square that the capital can not access.

I do not consider a granary or a temple until after the first two settlers are out the door. If I do, I fall too far behind on the build out, and if there are enemies starting near me, it is too late to catch up. I often send workers back to join the capital to increase settler production to make up for the lack of a granary.

This dense build provides tremendous early production of units, tech, and culture. Other benefits are the ease of connecting them all with roads and easy defense if there is an nearby expansionist out to kill me. The downside is some micromanagement due to overlapping tiles, and the need to trim these close in suburbs after the first age to give room for other cities to grow. I find the dense build to be faster than using the whip to hurry production with fewer long term negatives.

Unfortunately, I have zero chance of keeping up with the AI on Deity difficulty. However, I have ranked #1 or #2 out of eight on Emperor without going to war when I get a good map. With an average map, I rank 4 or 5. With a poor map, I am 7 or 8, but I survive--something that is not always easy on Emperor difficulty.

The location of the Forbidden Palace is often easy--the enemy capital ;) The offensive phase usually takes place after building 8 to 15 cities, then 20+ horsemen. This is on a standard size map. If I plan on this early attack, I research the Wheel first thing to claim a horse icon. I bribe the other neighbors to stay out of the war. This strategy works great on Emperor difficulty.
 
Originally posted by BillChin
The location of the Forbidden Palace is often easy--the enemy capital ;)


Quite right! I very often put my Forbidden Palace (or sometimes even relocate my palace) to the captured (or replaced) enemy civ capital. Starting locations are generally superior terrain and the enemy civ capitals are usually the right distance from yours to create the second CRC (Corruption Reduction Center).

In my current game the palace was moved to the cite of one defeated enemy's capital and the Forbidden Palace was built in another. Those AI civs know how to place a capital!
 
3 points here:

1. I like to build a second city a.s.a.p. Any objections? It gives you the option to diversify your production.
2. Why city walls? (No, I'm not (that) stupid?)
3. When your city is located near a river (counts as an aquaduct), don't let your city grow too large, or you have to 'waste' a lot of resources because of unrest (if you have a tyrannic government, that is)

GRTNX
 
Originally posted by Shabbaman
3 points here:

1. I like to build a second city a.s.a.p. Any objections? It gives you the option to diversify your production.
If I have a second city position that will be a very fast grower then I'll do the same. If not, I'll make 3 warriors/scouts and a temple or granary first (depending on what abilities my civ has).
 
i've only tried this in a single game. but i think it will work quite good in every situation.

instead of irigrating your capital city, build roads. not around the city, but in the direction you want your next city to be. that way the settler will reach the building spot a lot faster. And if you continue to follow this strategy, all of your citys will get the resources your bound to find.

without these roads it will take 5 turns at least to move your settler to the spot you want your city to be. with them it might take as little as 2 turns. if your capital city is the one you use for making settlers, using the roads will shave off a LOT of time when building the 3rd or 4th city, that might be quite a bit away.
 
I always built a granery in my capital after second city is built. This allow to produce settler and worker faster and keep the city growing. A capital city without a granery is a starving city IMHO.
 
Wow... there's some awesome tips here...

CP1, why did you post the same thing twice? It's not a double post, they are 11 min apart...
 
If you are not playing as an expansionist civ and do not have pottery available at the beginning of the game, try this:

Build 2 warriors in your capital and send them searching for good city spots. Research pottery first and increase science spending so that research will be completed at or around the same time that the second warrior is built. Then build your granary, which will give the city time to grow to size 4 or 5.
When the granary is done, build two settlers and send them out to build on the sites your warriors have found. Then continue with the original build order.
Also, If you begin the game with bronze working and are playing on a higher difficulty level or are surrounded by aggresive civs, replace all warriors after the 2 scouts with spearmen. They take twice as long to build, but are twice as good at defending you expanding empire.
 
I have been building 3 warriors, a worker and then chop down trees while prebuilding a granary.

I keep one warrior as an mp and send 2 out into the world. The second worker can help cutting down trees and a barracks or temple can make nice prebuild buildings. I think that you can research pottery in 15 turns and if each warrior/worker takes 5, you can build your worker and start on a granary.

You can also build a warrior, worker and start pre building a granary while cutting down trees.
 
Guess what? I usually try to build a temple first. This is on emporer. I go 100% for CM and bre-build with barracks or granary if I am expasion. Expansion may help with this strategy because of the free stuf from huts. I also chop if I can. Why? Because I can get it before 3000bc and it rakes in culture. This can get you started on a cultural victory. Its nice to have a chance for a cultural win, it keeps all options open. After that I chop a granary and start the REX. You will still get enough cities in before the land rush closes. Even on a standard map. No problem.
 
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