Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.5
- Thread starter mrtn
- Start date
Genesis_26317
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2007
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- 30
Okay I had to delete the spells.
Great mod again.
Ideas, make the sanitation mod and sewers unavailable to the three elven nations.
Also if you drop the trade bonus given to forests and mountains it will reduce the urge to cover a continent with a patchwork. Just up it in the plains and grasslands that way it represents a "real" medieval landscape.
It would be cool if you made duplicate Hordes of Chaos (like one of the four alignments or chaos undivided) or multiple groups of Orcs. That way you can play it with waves of Orcs and Chaos warriors invading.
Lastly instead of having Black Orcs as a normally buildable unit can you make it so that they can be built at a psycho high resource cost but that regular Orcs can be upgraded into them.
Since Orcs are a force build race then gold is practically useless, BUT it can be used to "buy" black orcs by "paying" to outfit regular Orcs.
Same thing can go with Dragon Princes for the High Elves, have regular Silver Helms but "upgrade" them to Dragon Princes for something lik 300 gold.
Make the Tomb Guard a upgrade for the Grave Guard instead of a unit that is obsolete when it is first researched. Lahmia's Vampires make anything in the Lahmia worthless other than the Blood Dragon (?) units.
Lothern Seaguard, spearmen with bombard, and a zero move.
The outsider nations are neat but it would be cooler to defend against 5 Orcs races (not allied but in a locked war) along with with some Chaos Dwarves, some Chaos Hordes and a constant desperate need to keep the alliance between the Elves, Dwarves, and Humans together.
Great mod again.
Ideas, make the sanitation mod and sewers unavailable to the three elven nations.
Also if you drop the trade bonus given to forests and mountains it will reduce the urge to cover a continent with a patchwork. Just up it in the plains and grasslands that way it represents a "real" medieval landscape.
It would be cool if you made duplicate Hordes of Chaos (like one of the four alignments or chaos undivided) or multiple groups of Orcs. That way you can play it with waves of Orcs and Chaos warriors invading.
Lastly instead of having Black Orcs as a normally buildable unit can you make it so that they can be built at a psycho high resource cost but that regular Orcs can be upgraded into them.
Since Orcs are a force build race then gold is practically useless, BUT it can be used to "buy" black orcs by "paying" to outfit regular Orcs.
Same thing can go with Dragon Princes for the High Elves, have regular Silver Helms but "upgrade" them to Dragon Princes for something lik 300 gold.
Make the Tomb Guard a upgrade for the Grave Guard instead of a unit that is obsolete when it is first researched. Lahmia's Vampires make anything in the Lahmia worthless other than the Blood Dragon (?) units.
Lothern Seaguard, spearmen with bombard, and a zero move.
The outsider nations are neat but it would be cooler to defend against 5 Orcs races (not allied but in a locked war) along with with some Chaos Dwarves, some Chaos Hordes and a constant desperate need to keep the alliance between the Elves, Dwarves, and Humans together.
Stormrage
Ever Present Taskmaster
? Doesn`t the "locked war" feature work only for scenarios?
embryodead
Caliph
Not sure if you deleted them in game or in the editor but if you deleted them from the editor, your game will be broken (buildings will produce wrong units, units will enslave wrong units etc.). In short, never delete stuff from the editor, disable it instead.
A note to everyone: if you have too many spells and other autoproduced units, just play on higher difficulty levels... Don't complain the game is too easy when you play on easy level
I usually play all games/mods on emperor level not because I'm uber, but because I just don't find it entertaining to build every wonder before the AI can even think of it. I see no reason for this change, honestly. And it'd be just unbalancing, especially for the AI, who can't adapt (and build tighter cities for instance).
No, it doesn't work that way. If you disable the trade bonus from a tile, roads cannot be built at all, which means, among other things, you won't able to access any forests/mountains resources, or connect some cities.
That screws up the AI - unfortunately it just builds the best unit, whether the cost is adequate or not.
Grave Guard is a special, non-buildable unit for vampire capitals only, not sure what you mean.
Different chaos forces were discussed during the several years of mod development. I missed a lot of it, but I imagine that if it would be feasible it would be in by now
EDIT: as far as locked wars go, you overestimate this feature and Civ3's AI. You cannot just "lock wars" between civs. They have to be put in groups, and there's only 4 of them. So if you want to have orcs in locked wars with humans, elves, dwarves etc. you'd have to put the orcs into one "locked alliances" and the humans, elves etc. into another alliance and so on. Warhammer world is not that easy good vs. evil, pretty much everyone can meet everyone in battle. On top of that, it's something for scenarios mainly, since it stops the AI from expanding and settling in a normal way.
Genesis_26317
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2007
- Messages
- 30
Not sure if you deleted them in game or in the editor but if you deleted them from the editor, your game will be broken (buildings will produce wrong units, units will enslave wrong units etc.). In short, never delete stuff from the editor, disable it instead.
A note to everyone: if you have too many spells and other autoproduced units, just play on higher difficulty levels... Don't complain the game is too easy when you play on easy level
I see no reason for this change, honestly. And it'd be just unbalancing, especially for the AI, who can't adapt (and build tighter cities for instance).
No, it doesn't work that way. If you disable the trade bonus from a tile, roads cannot be built at all, which means, among other things, you won't able to access any forests/mountains resources, or connect some cities.
That screws up the AI - unfortunately it just builds the best unit, whether the cost is adequate or not.
Grave Guard is a special, non-buildable unit for vampire capitals only, not sure what you mean.
Different chaos forces were discussed during the several years of mod development. I missed a lot of it, but I imagine that if it would be feasible it would be in by now
EDIT: as far as locked wars go, you overestimate this feature and Civ3's AI. You cannot just "lock wars" between civs. They have to be put in groups, and there's only 4 of them. So if you want to have orcs in locked wars with humans, elves, dwarves etc. you'd have to put the orcs into one "locked alliances" and the humans, elves etc. into another alliance and so on. Warhammer world is not that easy good vs. evil, pretty much everyone can meet everyone in battle. On top of that, it's something for scenarios mainly, since it stops the AI from expanding and settling in a normal way.
Blah you now what I mean about the spells, I just said deleted instead of wording it correctly. When playing on island the spells tend to stack up at the begining and then whenever naval battles pick up then are WAY effective at wiping out entire fleets.
Never said it was easy though.
I was just mentioning locking sewers from the elves to limit there populations to represent the incredibly low population that the elves represented in the Warhammer world.
I just want to make a scenario with floods of Orcs with some Chaos thrown in. Not good and evil just more aggressive Orcs instead of playing the Empire and somehow the High Elves and Orcs make a military alliance against me.
Hmmm, maybe for super unique units a strategic resource that doesn't exist.
About the Tomb Guard though playing Lahmia the Tomb Guard was basically a obsolete unit from the get go.
If eleven have smaller cities, their GDP and gold income is comparatively smaller than other races, 300 gold is better spent on others than dragon princes, unless dragon princes are uber.
Genesis_26317
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2007
- Messages
- 30
In TT the elves have smallers armies as well. Just make their unit more efficent.
Their foot troops already have a movement of 2, that makes them incredible useful. 6 moves on roads, and two on flats, they can reinforce their attacks rapidly and they have a chance of retreating if they are losing. That makes them more survivable as well.
Their spearmen should have a better defense as well because of their ability to fight in three ranks. (citizen militia rules)
Instead of making ever race the same just with different pictures make it more like the TT game.
Phoenix guard shouldn't be a buildable unit either, every twenty turns the Shrine of Asuryan could pop one out.
Shadow warriors could have a stealth attack instead of just being a replacement for archers.
I wouldn't agree more, but that requires more fine-tuning as TT was finetuned for over 20 years. Such as how do we justify 300 gold for a dragon prince unit? what stats would it has and abilities? This is just a tactical balancing, not counting overall Warhammer civ game balancing such as smaller max city size vs larger max city size.
It is a lot easier to balance a mod with different civs with same units but different pictures.
If we want to go with TT route with this mod, I would love to see that. We just need a person with no RL or setup a team.
Stormrage
Ever Present Taskmaster
Table-top? 
Stormrage
Ever Present Taskmaster
But then the Greatswords, the Executioners, the Swordmasters.. I think even the Black Guard.. they should all be spawned, no? And those are just a few civs.
Just by going to http://us.games-workshop.com, and compare WHF model lineup with the units in the mod, many are missing. If we want to take the mod to the next level as in more closely finetuned to really match TT, it will require alot of work. Currently this mod is a great fantasy mod with Warhammer flavor (units, buildings, etc...)
Don't get me wrong, this is an awesome mod. I played 24/7 for weeks. Ok, maybe not 24/7... But is it an awesome Warhammer Fantasy mod that stay true and retain all/almost all WHF content?
Then again, it is easy said than done.
aaglo
Furioso!
Since all other civs are able to build advanced defenders (pikemen/halberdiers/ect.), it would be imbalancing for elves to have Phoenix guards built by a wonder. And no, we are not going to add 31 wonders in the game just to make pikeman-level defenders spawned by a wonder. That would be silly.
We originally had the waywatchers as assassins, and we thought of making shadow warriors work the same way. But we deliberately changed them to elite archer units. Why? I forget it now, but it was a good reason
. And I like the way it is now.
aaglo
Furioso!
Can you say exactly how many? 10? 15 at most perhaps?
I wouldn't say that being many in relation to the units that are already in.
And I don't get you wrong
- of course this has to be a lot different from the tabletop, since this is Civ3. 
Keroro
Dororo: Ninja Frog
One of the issues in taking it to the next level is that 'someone' would need to make the units if you want to add them. Bit of a problem there, unless you can do it.
I think that the reason the Shadow Warriors are not assassin type units is that I was annoying aaglo and mrtn into giving the High Elves a superior archer type unit.
Can you say exactly how many? 10? 15 at most perhaps?
I wouldn't say that being many in relation to the units that are already in.
And I don't get you wrong
Just some stats from TT since you asked for numbers,
.Take high elve from codex for example.
=============In WH2.5===========N/I==============%Implemented
========(include lords&heroes)==(no counting lords&heroes)============
Land&air==========15=============4==================79%
Sea========2(dragon&ealgeships)=====1(Merwyrm)==========66%
Take empire:
=============In WH2.5===========N/I==============%Implemented
========(include lords&heroes)==(no counting lords&heroes)============
Land&air==========17=============6====================74%
So we are looking at roughly 5 units (70s%) not implemented for each unique civ. 13 codex armies are in WH2.5, last one (ogres became dogs of war units, lots missing there!). 13 * 5 = 65 core, special, mount (no lords or heroes) units not implemented for WH2.5 for the codex armies.
Of course the total unit count for WH2.5 is 447, not an easy feat to achieve!About 1/3 of 447 count is spells (we are not even counting the spells not implemented,
), misc units such as spies, and brand new units made for non codexed civs (i.e. nippon, cathay, amazon, etc...). The other 2/3 are the codexed army units.Of course, this is a civ3 fantasy mod with Warhammer flavor. Not bad at all.
Genesis_26317
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2007
- Messages
- 30
Just some stats from TT since you asked for numbers,
Take high elve from codex for example.
=============In WH2.5===========N/I==============%Implemented
========(include lords&heroes)==(no counting lords&heroes)============
Land&air==========15=============4==================79%
Sea========2(dragon&ealgeships)=====1(Merwyrm)==========66%
Take empire:
=============In WH2.5===========N/I==============%Implemented
========(include lords&heroes)==(no counting lords&heroes)============
Land&air==========17=============6====================74%
So we are looking at roughly 5 units (70s%) not implemented for each unique civ. 13 codex armies are in WH2.5, last one (ogres became dogs of war units, lots missing there!). 13 * 5 = 65 core, special, mount (no lords or heroes) units not implemented for WH2.5 for the codex armies.
Of course the total unit count for WH2.5 is 447, not an easy feat to achieve!About 1/3 of 447 count is spells (we are not even counting the spells not implemented,
Of course, this is a civ3 fantasy mod with Warhammer flavor. Not bad at all.
I really like the mod and the work put into it I just like talking about ideas for it. I played/was associated with/played (time out fue to Air Force) since I was 9 so it definately is a part of my world.
I think a hardcore TT type version would be cool though.
Forcing finesse from a HE player. Forcing brutality and wave style attacks from Orc/Gobbo players. Lastly forcing Dwarves to hold up and work on infrastructure for expensive powerful units.
Wondering though why don't Mage type units have anti-air defense? Taking out dragons etc, making them almost essential in later games with Wyvern's flying around around.
Also shouldn't all of the Dwarves/CD units be allowed free movement though mountain terrain, not necessarily moving though it like it is road, but it not being counted as a wheeled unit.
As far as following the codex's it really isn't needed, just the back of the starter book would give plenty of variety in a game. To many units and then you stop using the basis of what the army is in the first place.
Now I'm talking about TT to much ->
As far as Phoenix guard the idea of every city in the game being protected by 2 units of Phoenix guard is sorta weird for an TT army that can only field one unit as a rare choice. That and shadow warriors suck since they count as a special and you can't stick a standard bearer in them. 15 points for an archer with only a str 3 attack, light armor, and a +1 missile armor from skirmish, OUCH. Yeah they can deploy with the scout ability, but they can't harrass seige weapons well because 1/3-2/3 of the hits will smack the war machine itself (uselessly).
About the Anti Air abilty for the magic users, check the "flying" section in the civipedia.
I think it was because orc archers were better than elven ones IIRC.
@Genesis_26317:
And about the 'next level'/TT I don't think we should just end up adding every unit from the books for the hell of it. The game we have is pretty well balanced at the moment and there isn't really space in the tech tree for 5 more units per civ. If you could say which ones you think should be in and find a place for them in the game then you might have a better argument for their inclusion than a direct comparison to the TT version.
I think it was because orc archers were better than elven ones IIRC.
@Genesis_26317:
And about the 'next level'/TT I don't think we should just end up adding every unit from the books for the hell of it. The game we have is pretty well balanced at the moment and there isn't really space in the tech tree for 5 more units per civ. If you could say which ones you think should be in and find a place for them in the game then you might have a better argument for their inclusion than a direct comparison to the TT version.
aaglo
Furioso!
@Ryuga,
Okay... but there are some civs that have each and every unit available in the game that are in the Tabletop too (dwarfs for example, but only according to the older armybook - they have stonethrower instead of grudgethrower)... not including special characters/some thanes/lords.
Some units in the tabletop games do not have a reasonable place in Civ3, because the Civ3-engine is much simpler than the TT-rules. And we deliberately left out the White Lions and Dragon Princesses out of the mod, since they are such a special unit in TT. But we added phoenix knights, because 1. I already made the unit and 2. elves needed upgrade for spearmen.
But ok, some units are missing from the armybooks. But not many... And why, oh why did empire have to get the rocket battery in the new book? And outriders? (the new book came out after we've finalized our mod)
. They ruined our percentages
@Genesis_xxxxx,
Mage units do not have air defence, because there is only one air unit in the game - Dwarf Airship.
As you may have noticed, the dragons (and all flying units) are land units, which treat all terrain as roads. Why, you might ask?
Because: if dragons were air units, and 100 of them were stationed in a city with no land units, a lowly enemy warrior could enter that city and destroy all those 100 dragons without a fight. That's what happens to undefended air units... which is really bad in the case of dragons
Dwarfs / CD do not have movement capabilties in mountain squares, because if they had, they would be way too overpowered units in the early game. If I recall correctly, some later-game units can move in mountains though.
Okay... but there are some civs that have each and every unit available in the game that are in the Tabletop too (dwarfs for example, but only according to the older armybook - they have stonethrower instead of grudgethrower)... not including special characters/some thanes/lords.
Some units in the tabletop games do not have a reasonable place in Civ3, because the Civ3-engine is much simpler than the TT-rules. And we deliberately left out the White Lions and Dragon Princesses out of the mod, since they are such a special unit in TT. But we added phoenix knights, because 1. I already made the unit and 2. elves needed upgrade for spearmen.
But ok, some units are missing from the armybooks. But not many... And why, oh why did empire have to get the rocket battery in the new book? And outriders? (the new book came out after we've finalized our mod)
. They ruined our percentages @Genesis_xxxxx,
Mage units do not have air defence, because there is only one air unit in the game - Dwarf Airship.
As you may have noticed, the dragons (and all flying units) are land units, which treat all terrain as roads. Why, you might ask?
Because: if dragons were air units, and 100 of them were stationed in a city with no land units, a lowly enemy warrior could enter that city and destroy all those 100 dragons without a fight. That's what happens to undefended air units... which is really bad in the case of dragons
Dwarfs / CD do not have movement capabilties in mountain squares, because if they had, they would be way too overpowered units in the early game. If I recall correctly, some later-game units can move in mountains though.
