[Modmod]Dawn of Knoedel - Comprehensive Rebalance Project

This mod is no longer in development. It has been replaced by Sunset of Civilization, and I urge you to check that out instead. The original thread below is still conserved because I'm a sucker for nostalgia and will probably want to read it three years from now.

Hello and good day one and all! I promised it, now I deliver!

As you all know we wouldn't be here without the hard work of Leoreth, and for that we owe him our thanks. However he is far from perfect, and while he brings us myriad improvements over what Rhye has given us all these years ago, he sometimes takes some steps backward too.

In fact, I would describe Leoreth with the ancient Chinese wisdom that he got "70% right and 30% wrong". You might ask yourself, "Is he seriously comparing Leoreth to Mao?", to which I can only point out that they both in their own ways ruined Central Planning.

Anyhow, enough chit chat, let's talk about the vision I had while furiously editing XML files to Red Army march songs:


Buildings worth building!
Are you tired of no buildings worth building? Say no more! You will love to build Markets everywhere! Airports and Supermarkets are a must have for the properly industrialized mega-city! An Industrial Park that doesn't suck!

Improved Improvements!
Watermills! Need I say more? Actually yes, I do. But seriously, Watermills now don't chop forests! Bring on the riverside production! But don't think I forgot about the other improvements, no Sir! Lumbermills have been moved back, Forts forward, and Forest Preserves midward! Are you sick and tired of seeing workers lallygagging around, draining your treasury with their unemployment benefits once you are done improving everything? Not anymore, because now you can settle them down to found hamlets, increasing your commerce and getting those bums out of your sight all at once! Neat, huh?

Wonderful Wonders!
Be honest, who here really ever builds the Opera House, the Red Cross or the National Gallery? People with my mod, that's who! Can you say +1 Production per Specialist without a planned economy? No more can you ignore culture in your developed core cities!

U need Units!
No more forests or hills speeding armies up instead of slowing them down! Unit movement has been increased across the board, and rivers now actually pose an obstacle! Gunpowder units now all have a first strike or several to properly set them apart from melee units! But that's not all, suicide siege has been done away with as all siege units but Machine Guns and several ships now have the ability to range bombard.

See... vic... Civics? You know what I mean!
Leoreth's treatment of Central Planning making you angry and agitated? Do I know that feeling! Step right up and experience a completely revamped set of civics! Capitalism making trade your highest priority! Mercantilism being the goto choice for large intercontinental empires! Central Planning that works just as planned! No more secular theocracies!

All these and many more features are yours to play with, if you just follow this giant link here:


You have two ways of installation:

First, the quick and easy way, which leads to the dark side:

1) Click on the green button that says "Clone or download".
2) Click on "Download ZIP".
3) Unpack the archive in your "Beyond the Sword\Mods folder".
4) Rename the unpacked mod folder (which is probably called something like "RFC-Dawn-of-Knoedel-master") to "RFC Dawn of Knoedel".
5) Download "Scenario Files.zip", which is attached in this post.
6) Unpack "Scenario Files.zip" in your "Mods\RFC Dawn of Knoedel\PrivateMaps" folder, and when prompted, say yes overwrite all.

You are ready to play, however you will have to manually repeat this process whenever you want to update to the current version.

This is why I recommend this second method, shamelessly copied from there to be pasted and slightly edited here:

1) Download and install Git for Windows.
2) Download and install Tortoise Git.
3) During the installation, you will be prompted for a number of settings. Most of these are only relevant to developers, since you only want to use Git for access you can simply accept the default values.
4) Right-click on your Beyond the Sword\Mods folder and choose "Git Clone".
5) In the prompt, enter the following as "URL": "http://github.com/Imperator-Knoedel/RFC-Dawn-of-Knoedel".
6) You also have to change the "Directory" entry so that it ends in ".../RFC Dawn of Knoedel" instead of ".../Dawn-of-Knoedel(-master)".
7) Wait for the download to complete.

Your folder is on the current state of the online repository and you are ready to play. To get new changes, simply right-click it and select "TortoiseGit" and then "Pull...". Within a few seconds you will be up to date.

Credits go to me, Leoreth and Rhye, roughly in that order, followed by the creators of Civilization 4, followed by the people who made the creation of Civilization 4 possible, followed by all other human beings who in some shape or form through their work led to the existence of this project. (Can't forget the workers can I?) Oh and I took the graphics for the Police unit from somewhere on CivFanatics too, but can't be bothered to search who it was from exactly, the files for it have been on my computer for like a year already. Ocean Liner graphics are from Legends of Revolution. Second UU and UB mod was created by merijn_v1. Cultural Golden Ages mechanic is from Maniac. River-crossing consuming movement points is from ViterboKnight.

Imp. Knoedel said:

Opera House

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I build the Opera House (as Japan and French)

Imp. Knoedel said:

Credits go to me, Leoreth and Rhye, roughly in that order

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Rhye once said to his disciples, "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Oh, wow. So many changes.

I need to try this out.

Aqueducts are still useless, CP maybe OP if it gives +50% hammers, classic workshop and watermills are still useless.

However I like how basic units have been rebalanced. Maybe it will refress this modmod a bit.

I like what you did with Axemen vis a vis Spearmen. Had something similar in mind, but I'm not sure how to pull it off.

You added 1 first strike to almost every unit. Isn't it so that if you have equal first strikes, it doesn't matter. So effectively, there is no change?

calad said:

I need to try this out.

Aqueducts are still useless, CP maybe OP if it gives +50% hammers, classic workshop and watermills are still useless.

However I like how basic units have been rebalanced. Maybe it will refress this modmod a bit.

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How exactly are Aqueducts useless? They are the only building providing health before Grocers come along, and with stone much cheaper.

Leoreth said:

I like what you did with Axemen vis a vis Spearmen. Had something similar in mind, but I'm not sure how to pull it off.

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Feel free to include any features you like in the main mod. One of these days I'll figure out how this Git thingy works to make it easier for you.

merijn_v1 said:

You added 1 first strike to almost every unit. Isn't it so that if you have equal first strikes, it doesn't matter. So effectively, there is no change?

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I added a first strike to every unit attacking from range to properly set them apart from melee units. Some units like Machine Guns and Stealth Destroyers have more than just one first strike. The point is that now gunpowder units have a better chance of shooting melee units dead on sight without getting hurt themselves.

My personal wishlist for unit changes go bit in different direction. Mounted units in yours modmod are OP, no effective counter for shock horseman or knight. To much first strikes for everyone is pointless. So to not be seen as only critical I present my toughts on unit lineup.

Ancient:
1.Warrior 4/1 25h
2.Scout 2/1
3.Chariot 4/2 +100% attack vs warrior
4.Axe removed
5.Spear 5/1 +50% vs mounted
6.Archer 4/1 +25% city/hills def, 1 first strike

Classical era:
1.Elephant removed
2.New unit Lancer 8/2, mounted, 70h, construction and monarchy

Medieval:
1.Heavy sword loses melee mod, 60h
2.Pike 8/1 +50% vs mounted, 70h, engineering and ? gulids, banking... something else
3.Musketman 70h

Renaissance:
1.new unit Line Infantry 12/1 +25%vs mounted, 90h, nationalism and gunpowder
2.cannon 10/1, 90h, moved to chemistry, no rifling needed

Industrial: no changes

Modern:
1.Para and marine removed
2.Amphibious promo has no preq
3.New promo paratrooper, no preq, for infantry line, unit can airdrop
4.New unit modern cavalry 18/2, 40% retreat, 140h, mounted, tech ? biology perhaps...

Future: no changes

Opinions,toughts?

Ogi123 said:

Mounted units in yours modmod are OP

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Just like in real life!

I considered maybe removing hard resource requirements for melee units while increasing their cost and adding a modifier so they get built faster with Copper/Iron.

Maybe I should add a malus to city attack for mounted units? I don't really mind them ruling the open fields.

I am very reluctant to add units, and even more to remove some. I did have some ideas however:

Horse Archer and Knight reworked to light and heavy cavalry respectively, the former weaker with higher withdrawal rate and the latter stronger but without withdrawal.

Police unit as cheap garrison for cities safe from attack, requires Constitution and Rifling, 100 Hammers, 10 Strength, 1 Movement, +25% City Defense, never obsoletes.

Modern Infantry, so no more draftees coming with free APCs: 24/1, +10% vs. Gunpowder Units, more expensive than Infantry but cheaper than Mechanized Infantry, Mechanized Infantry changed to require Oil.

Imp. Knoedel said:

In fact, I would describe Leoreth with the ancient Chinese wisdom that he got "70% right and 30% wrong". You might ask yourself, "Is he seriously comparing Leoreth to Mao?", to which I can only point out that they both in their own ways ruined Central Planning.

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I've only skimmed the OP before this preface is hilarious.

Imp. Knoedel said:

How exactly are Aqueducts useless? They are the only building providing health before Grocers come along, and with stone much cheaper.

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It is the most expencive classic building and it provides a bonus that is not needed at all in classic era: only when your cities because truely colossal or for some reason you run out of healt resources you have to build it. Aqueducts would be more usefull for example would it have similar bonus like granary.

Just noticed that I forgot to reply to some of the things calad mentioned:

calad said:

Aqueducts are still useless, CP maybe OP if it gives +50% hammers, classic workshop and watermills are still useless.

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Central Planning doesn't give +50% production, as realistic as that might be. It's +50% to work rate when building improvements, like Agrarianism.

How are Watermills useless? They fall behind during the industrial revolution, yes, but afterwards they pick up again, especially with Environmentalism.

calad said:

It is the most expencive classic building and it provides a bonus that is not needed at all in classic era: only when your cities because truely colossal or for some reason you run out of healt resources you have to build it. Aqueducts would be more usefull for example would it have similar bonus like granary.

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And here I thought I might stiffle growth too much by moving the health boni of the Smokehouse to the Supermarket.
With stone it's half price though.

(Checks thread) Well, that sounds properly balanced.

Let be honest here, units and how they balance in civ4 is unrealistic and focused on gameplay.

I considered maybe removing hard resource requirements for melee units while increasing their cost and adding a modifier so they get built faster with Copper/Iron.

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Horde gameplay is not possible due to mainetance, war wariness and stability.

Maybe I should add a malus to city attack for mounted units? I don't really mind them ruling the open fields.

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That is actually good idea, -25% city attack for all mounted units?

Horse Archer and Knight reworked to light and heavy cavalry respectively, the former weaker with higher withdrawal rate and the latter stronger but without withdrawal.

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Not necessary at all, not enough diferencess between both lines.

Police unit as cheap garrison for cities safe from attack, requires Constitution and Rifling, 100 Hammers, 10 Strength, 1 Movement, +25% City Defense, never obsoletes.

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Useless, unless running civic with military happiness. Besides name should be something like militia, or national guard.

Modern Infantry, so no more draftees coming with free APCs: 24/1, +10% vs. Gunpowder Units, more expensive than Infantry but cheaper than Mechanized Infantry, Mechanized Infantry changed to require Oil.

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Will only incerase value of oil, it is weaker cheaper mech inf if you don't have oil.

What about your axes they have gone from mainline unit to never build, and why in the name of dark gods archery line have bonus against cavalry their mortal enemy?

Ogi123 said:

Will only incerase value of oil, it is weaker cheaper mech inf if you don't have oil.

What about your axes they have gone from mainline unit to never build, and why in the name of dark gods archery line have bonus against cavalry their mortal enemy?

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I don't really mind Oil being the lifeblood of any modern civilization.

Axes haven't really been used as a mainline weapon by any important civilization.

Massed archers are the mortal enemy of any light cavalry raid. Spear formations meanwhile are pretty easy to harrass with hit and run tactics by horse archers.

Axes haven't really been used as a mainline weapon by any important civilization.

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Well yes, but in civ4 they are mainline unit. If you want be truly realistic then there are only light/heavy units mobile/infantry versions.

Massed archers ae the mortal enemy of any light cavalry raid.

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Usually its other light cav.. archers have this problem with mobility, and than in real life they caused enemy unit disorganisation and sapped morale, casualties from ranged fire were historically rather neglible before gunpowder.

Spear formations meanwhile are pretty easy to harrass with hit and run tactics by horse archers

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This on other hand was countered by foot archers (longer range).

I don't really mind Oil being the lifeblood of any modern civilization.

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Then you will need incerase oil amount. And if you want modern inf then 24S isn't enough, 26 - 28 no mod perhaps?

Imp. Knoedel said:

Central Planning doesn't give +50% production, as realistic as that might be. It's +50% to work rate when building improvements, like Agrarianism.

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Ah, okay. I just wonder if it is anymore usefull then to civs like China which has very few mines and quaries.

Imp. Knoedel said:

How are Watermills useless? They fall behind during the industrial revolution, yes, but afterwards they pick up again, especially with Environmentalism.

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Im talking about early watermills and workshops. They both give bonus of +1hammer which is awful small and is complitely useless before guilds which triples hammers. They would be more usefull if basic hammers would be +2 instead of +1.

Imp. Knoedel said:

And here I thought I might stiffle growth too much by moving the health boni of the Smokehouse to the Supermarket.
With stone it's half price though.

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Well what I see a realism problem of this game is population growth is modelled. Pollution should be number one problem of cities before 19th century. Every major city before that had higher death rates than birth rates. From ancient Rome to modern New York before public sanitation streets simply were covered of poo and dead animals/people. Cleaning of New York is very well documented.

What I wish is that this mod would reverse happiness and pollution somehow, so reason why cities dont grow is pollution and not of lack of public order. Then aqueducts would be really usefull!

calad said:

Im talking about early watermills and workshops. They both give bonus of +1hammer which is awful small and is complitely useless before guilds which triples hammers. They would be more usefull if basic hammers would be +2 instead of +1.

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Actually Guilds only doubles production, and even then only the civic, not the tech. Watermills however do get +1 Commerce with Engineering and don't remove foests.

Disregarding civics workshops now only give 1 production until Chemistry, as I intended them to be extremely situational before the Industrial Revolution, as is realistic.

I don't want to give workshops the same production as mines before the Industrial Revolution.

calad said:

Well what I see a realism problem of this game is population growth is modelled. Pollution should be number one problem of cities before 19th century. Every major city before that had higher death rates than birth rates. From ancient Rome to modern New York before public sanitation streets simply were covered of poo and dead animals/people. Cleaning of New York is very well documented.

What I wish is that this mod would reverse happiness and pollution somehow, so reason why cities dont grow is pollution and not of lack of public order. Then aqueducts would be really usefull!

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That is what I intended with the removal of health from the Smokehouse, wasn't that enough? Should I completely remove the base health you get from difficulty? How about +2 sickness in all cities from Palace as a kind of anti-Hanging Gardens, or would that be overkill?

I just got another idea: Reduce the food kept by Granary and Smokehouse to 20% each, but make them add +1 Food per improved wheat/rice/corn and cow/pig/sheep respectively. Also add 5% food kept after growth to Walls, Castle, Bunker and Bomb Shelter, the idea being that defensive buildings provide additional storage space for food to hold out against sieges.

Another idea I got while playing Arabia just now and seeing the Moors willing to trade Wine: Islamic buildings should give -1 happiness from Wine and Pig. Of course this should be balanced by giving them some other kind of bonus. Hindu buildings maybe should give extra happiness with Cow.

Any other suggestions Leoreth won't listen to that I could implement?