Great Admiral underpowered?

Great admirals need a movement rate that scales with age. 4 movement in the industrial and modern age is far too slow
 
I like both the "grants ZOC ignoring" and the "coastal battery improvement" ideas.

Coastal battery having a ZOC of 2 is a little eccentric though. I think many people would find it confusing since the only visual indication that a ZOC is affecting you is being adjacent to something. People would just wonder why their ship can only move 1 hex at a time.

To expand on the coastal battery implementation, since you can't improve an adjacent hex (only the one you're on), you could treat it visually like moai statues.

The GA improves a coastal tile that has at least 1 adjacent land tile. And it looks like a series of cannons all along the coastline of the land tiles that are adjacent the the ocean tile in which the improvement itself exists.

The only problem I see is that there is no way to destroy coastal batteries unless military ships are allowed to pillage. And that would mean they would go down pretty quickly and be more of a distraction than a real defense. So maybe each GA can create 2-3 coatal battery improvements before being expended? I don't like the idea of an indestructible improvement.
 
Actually, I'm going to morph the coastal batteries idea a bit.

Why not the same as a GG; but a coastal fort instead of a land fort?

It must be built on coast adjacent to land. It acts exactly the same as a fort; every coast and ocean tile adjacent to it takes -30 damage. Any sea unit stationed there gets the huge defensive bonus. Maybe in this case whether it is indestructible or not doesn't matter since it will only harm ships up to 1 hex away (i.e. ships bombarding or attacking the coastal city up until battleships and ranged promotions)
 
Big J Why not the same as a GG said:
That just makes it a Citadel that extends into the water. (Which is fine if the nearby city is set back in a narrow bay that has an ocean channel to it.) To be nautical feature, it should placed such that there is only one water tile between it and the coast. That would make it a fort similar to Fort Sumter, and it would be doing what a coastal battery is supposed to do: establish a ZOC that regulates naval traffic and defends against maritime attackers.
Click to expand...
 
Two easy-to-implement tweaks that i believe can make great admiral relevant, if situationally so:
in the exploration tree, swap navigation school and the 1happy per lighthouse/harbor seaport policies around. What made the free great admiral very useful in G&K's commerce tree was that you could get him well before reseaching astronomy and send him exploring the oceans in relative safety as long as he ends his turn in an ocean tile. where NS is in the exploration tree it's very unlikely that you wont have astronomy before getting him. i also think 1happy per Lh/harbour/seaport is strong enough for a coastally focused civ to justify the relative lateness.
Secondly, what i think would be a very useful passive ability for a great admiral is to enable adjacent naval units to heal 15hp per turn outside friendly territory (not automatically, but like a temporary supply promo). i find that early naval scouting is often limited by the rate of attrition your triremes suffer due to barbs and having no access t friendly territory - i feel that this adjustment would make a great admiral not, essential, but at least somewhat more purposeful.
 
darkpigraph said:
Two easy-to-implement tweaks that i believe can make great admiral relevant, if situationally so:
in the exploration tree, swap navigation school and the 1happy per lighthouse/harbor seaport policies around. What made the free great admiral very useful in G&K's commerce tree was that you could get him well before reseaching astronomy and send him exploring the oceans in relative safety as long as he ends his turn in an ocean tile. where NS is in the exploration tree it's very unlikely that you wont have astronomy before getting him. i also think 1happy per Lh/harbour/seaport is strong enough for a coastally focused civ to justify the relative lateness.
Secondly, what i think would be a very useful passive ability for a great admiral is to enable adjacent naval units to heal 15hp per turn outside friendly territory (not automatically, but like a temporary supply promo). i find that early naval scouting is often limited by the rate of attrition your triremes suffer due to barbs and having no access t friendly territory - i feel that this adjustment would make a great admiral not, essential, but at least somewhat more purposeful.
Click to expand...

Of course then the GA should have a different "consumed ability".. a "Coastal Citadel" might be good (range 2 zoc/damage to enemy ships/continues the supply to other ships).. can be placed far away from your territory.
 
The Admiral is fine

I won the last game with the Ottomans (Standard Continents). For the first time in Civ i really used him (i bought 3 with Faith)
1. Capture enemy ships.
2. Then use a Admiral to get your fleet to full health. Continue with 1.
3. Demolish everything with 20 Battleships, 20 Destroyers some carriers and some submarines :)

I like the "Naval Academy" idea. Remove Marines from the game. Admirals may build a naval Academy. Melee and Gunpowder Units trained in this city start with "Amphibious" Extra Sight and more Defense while embarked. Ships start with "Supply"
 
I like the idea of GAds being able to create a sort of Naval Outpost improvement, like the equivalent of a Citadel, which weakens enemy naval units nearby, but would also allow for much faster healing of naval units parked within it.

It would allow the player to make use of otherwise useless ocean tiles, make naval combat more interesting, and necessitate the use of aerial combat strategies earlier.
 
Great Admirals can not be underpowered compared to other GP's. They come from a completely different pool, and don't need to be balanced to same degree of usefullness as for instance a Great Scientist.

The argument of balancing and underpowered Great Person in this thread was earlier used to boost the Great Generals, and it has lead us to citadels used offensively and as Culture Bombs. Really hate that design. Worst thing about this otherwise excellent game.

So no! There is no need to boost the Great Admirals, at least not because of gameplay balancing.
 
Luckystrike77 said:
Great Admirals can not be underpowered compared to other GP's. They come from a completely different pool, and don't need to be balanced to same degree of usefullness as for instance a Great Scientist.

The argument of balancing and underpowered Great Person in this thread was earlier used to boost the Great Generals, and it has lead us to citadels used offensively and as Culture Bombs. Really hate that design. Worst thing about this otherwise excellent game.

So no! There is no need to boost the Great Admirals, at least not because of gameplay balancing.
Click to expand...

Well all Great people do impressive things in the gameplay. But the Great admiral is for most of us not that useful, which makes them underpowered. If you think that certain other mechanics besides generating great admiral from war is involved, like buy great admiral with faith or social policies giving free GA/Great people, then it certainly requires certain gameplay balancing.
 
Don't GAs allow ships near them to heal? I'd say that's a pretty great ability when you're a long, long way away from a friendly port and under fire.

Still some kind of tile improvement like the other GPersons have would be nice.
 
Well, I have to admit that I think the GG is quite overpowered - citadels taking all the surrounded land - instead of the GA being underpowered.
 
Bad Wolf said:
Don't GAs allow ships near them to heal? I'd say that's a pretty great ability when you're a long, long way away from a friendly port and under fire.

Still some kind of tile improvement like the other GPersons have would be nice.
Click to expand...

True, but your GA is burned by healing up surrounding ships. If your ships could always heal a bit in the presence of a GA without burning him up, that should do it.
 
I'd say make him maintenance free while docking in city so you don't feel like he's draining the gold when you are not at war
 
Reading this makes me think of Vanilla. The addition of GAs was a big deal. I do agree that they aren't quite as useful as other great people. At least they can't be trapped in large lakes anymore. I was playing the Into the Renaissance scenario a couple weeks ago, bought a GA w/ culture and it appeared in Mecca, where it was useless since it was trapped in the "red sea" lake. That was one aspect of the Fall Patch that they could have applied to G&K also. At least he still served his purpose of satisfying 4 CS quests.
 
Hakan-i Cihan said:
True, but your GA is burned by healing up surrounding ships. If your ships could always heal a bit in the presence of a GA without burning him up, that should do it.
Click to expand...
I quite agree with this. However, then they have to create some action that expends the GA, just like ALL of the other GPs get used up by exercising a special ability. But if they did both those things, the GA goes from being under-powered to being over-powered, because it then has TWO primary functions (leadership AND unit healing) and one secondary function.
 
CaptainPatch said:
I quite agree with this. However, then they have to create some action that expends the GA, just like ALL of the other GPs get used up by exercising a special ability. But if they did both those things, the GA goes from being under-powered to being over-powered, because it then has TWO primary functions (leadership AND unit healing) and one secondary function.
Click to expand...

The "burning" could also give all the ships the supply promotion.
 
I would like to see an ability to create a canal on an adjacent land hex... the times it would be of great benefit may be few and far between but I've had instances when I put a city on one side of a two-tile isthmus and I'd kill to have a connection to the other side.
 
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