EscapedGoat
Warlord
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- Dec 4, 2005
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Nice! that must be a record of some sort
I'm guessing the AI founded the Congress?
The "Official" Diety Overflow Exploit Challenge
- Thread starter Cromagnus
- Start date
Nice! that must be a record of some sort
I'm guessing the AI founded the Congress?phillipwyllie
Wannabe Deity
Yes, no isolationist civs. Everyone was exploring. Also the AI was way ahead on tech, by t160 or so the world had moved into the modern era(and not because of me).
Cromagnus
Deity
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t90 + 34 turns = t124. 34*12=408.
Yes, you can get 5 GS with Liberty, but it's really tricky. For one thing, you have to delay the finisher, and that very likely means burning one or even two policies before you hit the Renaissance, unless you intentionally reduce your culture output. So, you put 1-2 points in Tradition maybe, but it's problematic. Whereas, with full Tradition, you complete Tradition and immediately open Rationalism.
I had to use space procurements to buy 2 parts, probably because i held off for a number to turns to build apollo (bad idea, thought i had plenty of time, turns out I did not
Having a lot of science AI's in the game would help a lot I think, In my game I had a few warmonger (Shaka, Genghis) and a few dud AIs (India, Venice), with 2 decent tech-AIs (Haille, Hiawatha) and Washington, who did little at all.... obviously, more tech-oriented AIs (Sejong) would have helped a lot, as my initial bulb would be helped by more exponential growth (remember, just 1 or 2 techs gives huge exponential returns at that stage)
I'll try another few games to optimize and see if my results are consistent, or if I just got lucky
How much did the space parts cost with freedom ideology? Is the gold purchase cost unbearable, like for nukes and stuff? (I guess nukes purchase would be cheaper with autocracy and commerce policies)
I think I have to add one thing - u dont even need scientists to abuse this trick.
you can just use "normal" overflow (at medi age after unis u got like 150 bakkers) - now u can overflow 149 bakker into a tech like bronze working - if u then teched bronze before close to finish (lets say u just need 5 more bakkers)
--> u overflow 144 bakkers from bronze to iron working which get multipled by 1+7/8 ( allmost 2)
U can basicly nearly double research every turn u can switch to a cheap tech by doing that.
So u might get used to flip between expensive techs and cheap techs all time
edit: maybe my math is a bit of - but in general it works like that.
you can just use "normal" overflow (at medi age after unis u got like 150 bakkers) - now u can overflow 149 bakker into a tech like bronze working - if u then teched bronze before close to finish (lets say u just need 5 more bakkers)
--> u overflow 144 bakkers from bronze to iron working which get multipled by 1+7/8 ( allmost 2)
U can basicly nearly double research every turn u can switch to a cheap tech by doing that.
So u might get used to flip between expensive techs and cheap techs all time
edit: maybe my math is a bit of - but in general it works like that.
Cromagnus
Deity
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Yeah, this does work. I tried this by painstakingly getting every tech really close when it was possible to do so. (IE if it needed 50 beakers and I had 45, I'd put a turn into it, being careful not to grow a city or otherwise get boosted tech... had to reload one turn when an AI started a caravan to me...)
The problem I have with this is that you're putting a lot of research into a lot of techs for a lot of turns without actually researching anything. So, you're pretty far behind, unable to build improvements or buildings you need, and the initial overflow, instead of being 1000 or something, is like 100, so you get much less benefit. I felt like it ended up being a break-even with researching sailing earlier and getting a caravan. But it does work. I think my overflow peaked out at 3000 beakers this way on t90, as opposed to peaking out at 20k if you burn 2 GS on t90 or even 50k on t120 with 3 GS. You want that big initial snowball to really maximize.
I've been playing with this a bit more, using a t92 Education save, and my biggest issue is that I lack the faith and money to buy both public schools and research labs. So, Plastics on t140, but only one lab.
I think I can optimize it though. The other issue is I need more population. I think I need to re-roll a coastal start. Research Labs with 20 population doesn't cut it.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to beeline and rush-buy Medical Labs? Hmmm.
EscapedGoat
Warlord
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It's only 1+0,3*7/8 though so your max multiplier is only 1,2625. If your initial overflow is 100, even the exponential growth wont do much with such a low starting value. Really need scientists to properly abuse this.
Gamewizard
Emperor
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This is what bothers me most...people are abusing this and not even aware. If you just happen to bulb a scientist with 1 turn remaining on a tech you will get more breakers than if you wait a turn and bulb on a fresh tech.
I wonder how many of my immortal wins have benefited from this.
Cromagnus
Deity
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Only if you haven't met everyone yet. Industrialization and Every Modern Era tech have Printing Press as a prerequisite.
EscapedGoat
Warlord
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It's still really hard to break any SV records with this exploit... In my current attempt, I have maxed out my exponential beaker growth at 178.000 beakers at turn 148, about to enter industrial (so that's pretty late), BUT I will basically clear the entire tech tree needed for Science Victory with the accumulated beakers at one tech every turn, so I don't even have to get public schools, research labs or basically even worry about science at all for the rest of the game, I could in theory remove my scientists from my universities I guess
I have 16 techs to clear for Apollo program, that puts me at turn 164, then at least 7-10 turns just to build the damned thing, get hubble in 1 turn via great engineer... allready at turn 175-ish, very unlikely to get all the space ship parts built/bought in under 10 turns to break my "old" record of 184 turns...
Ironically, the worse/slower you play, the easier it is to exploit this... if you are way behind in tech, you will benefit the most when you abuse. The better/faster you play, the less benefit you get and you really have to time everything perfectly to reach the kind of beakers I mentioned above in a reasonable time-frame. You also need a strong tech-AI in your game. If you reach a very fast university, chances are the AI won't have researched even the first row of rennaisance techs yet, naturally limiting your exponential growth potential to 12-13 techs, realistically limiting your maxed out beakers to somewhere around 100.000-120.000, which is not enough to clear the tech tree of course.
Looking at the tech tree, you only need about 110.000 ish beakers to go from architecture to nanotechnology though, so rushing xcom squads could be pretty fun?
I have 16 techs to clear for Apollo program, that puts me at turn 164, then at least 7-10 turns just to build the damned thing, get hubble in 1 turn via great engineer... allready at turn 175-ish, very unlikely to get all the space ship parts built/bought in under 10 turns to break my "old" record of 184 turns...
Ironically, the worse/slower you play, the easier it is to exploit this... if you are way behind in tech, you will benefit the most when you abuse. The better/faster you play, the less benefit you get and you really have to time everything perfectly to reach the kind of beakers I mentioned above in a reasonable time-frame. You also need a strong tech-AI in your game. If you reach a very fast university, chances are the AI won't have researched even the first row of rennaisance techs yet, naturally limiting your exponential growth potential to 12-13 techs, realistically limiting your maxed out beakers to somewhere around 100.000-120.000, which is not enough to clear the tech tree of course.
Looking at the tech tree, you only need about 110.000 ish beakers to go from architecture to nanotechnology though, so rushing xcom squads could be pretty fun?
Cromagnus
Deity
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pvtjava
The Grey Cat
I sort of agree with this. It certainly allows you to backfill quicker and pick up techs along the way you would not have until finishing your bee lines. For a lesser player like myself, it allows me to catch AI far more quickly, even spacing out bulbs as you generate GS is helpful to catch up, but not necessarily to pass them. It all depends on how much science you are producing, of course.
EscapedGoat
Warlord
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I don't know... I still finished up that game i described above at turn 187 SV which is no record, but pretty damned fast, with 3 space ship parts bought... no scholars in residence actually, demonstrating that you do not need Scholars to finish the tech tree in "one go" with this exploit (but you need to be slow enough in science for the AI to reach renaissance for a few extra exponential growth techs, it's amazing what just 2-3 more techs does for your multiplier). I had only 250-ish research/turn at the end of the game, but it did not matter of course, I was getting one tech/turn anyway and finished the required techs with 10.000-ish bulbs left over (1 tech margin of error
- but I had my rationalism finisher unused this game.)If I had pulled some really exploity moves like selling my cities, or declaring war to get my 200-300 gold per turn loans back to loan the money again from another AI, I could have pushed this win time down to around 180 I am pretty sure of. You only need 1 city to win...
I have a feeling that doing stuff like that is allmost required to break 180 turns, because the limit is at that point no longer the tech pace, but you will not have enough production to produce all 6 parts the hard way. They each cost 1500 hammers, meaning a really good production cap (300 hammer/turn after relevant multipliers) will need 5 turns per piece... that's 30 turns after Apollo finishes.. meaning you need to reach rocketry even 5-turns before that, or produce some in your satelite cities. Of course, even with a build time of 15 turns, I suppose that could work out (if you get 100 prod/turn in your expos...)
The only reason I had gold enough to buy 3 space ship parts (that's over 9000 gold) was because I did not have to buy either public schools or research labs, and of course I loaned away all my money to the point I was at 0/gpt at end game (I never have to pay that money back
)CivHeretic
Chieftain
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One word... "WingedHussar!!!"Yeah, tommynt really is that good... but tommy, t110 domination victory on standard settings? That may have been possible pre-fall patch warmongering nerf, but I'd like to see someone pull that off now.
Regardless of that, how do you cover the map that fast? Maybe with Darius's golden ages... *maybe* but I don't even see how you move that fast, and how do you tech Chivalry fast enough to do it with camels?? Taking out the whole map in 20 turns??
Also, I don't know about you, but I'm almost certain no one's done this by accident without immediately realizing that it was broken. Getting one tech every turn for 15-30 turns would seem a bit odd for one GS...
It is exploite because it multiply many times.
For example I bulb sailing, know by everybody Bulb*1.X - saling next go to next tech where it multiply AGAIN! One of problem exploiting that is multiplication can get soo big so Civ get INT overflow...
For example I bulb sailing, know by everybody Bulb*1.X - saling next go to next tech where it multiply AGAIN! One of problem exploiting that is multiplication can get soo big so Civ get INT overflow...
CivHeretic
Chieftain
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We know it's an exploit. We're having fun playing around with it.
However if you want to maximize the overflow you need a few things set up before hand and your civ will have a HUGE window where you are WAY weaker than other civs, so you have to have a large "ranged" army for defense.
#1 You MUST not research Mining OR Sailing
#2 You MUST pass Scholars in Residence
#3 You MUST wait until your SPT is 100+
#4 You MUST have at least 2 Great Scientists to Bulb
That's not all hard to do but when trying to go as fast as possible (like we are here) it's hard to get it all setup early. My best times so far have been when Korea is playing because he seems to like to beeline to Printing Press.
EDIT: Also I must be pretty bad because the earliest I can win is either Poland or Babylon at around turn 190-195 and my worst game so far was 209.
Cromagnus
Deity
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Hah, yeah, well, I scoffed at a t110 Deity Domination victory until I got my own.. live and learn.
johnny_rudeboy
Warlord
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Shame on you. Alfred Nobel invented the dynamite.
consentient
Domination!
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So is this just being envisaged, or have you actually done it? You said it was easy (quoted above) but was that supposition or spoken from experience?
Do you have videos of Deity wins on T110?
Seriously, I have never come across a more arrogant forum output than yours on this forum. Almost every thread I see you cropping up in, you are saying how easy the game is and how everyone else must be stupid or "a joke" for not being as good as you.
Do you even understand how annoying it is for those of us that are learning the game to see such comments? Presumably you don't care what people think of you, so I guess me venting like this is perfectly fine. I'm just surprised the mods don't do more to remind you that this is a community and that your swagger and bragging is probably pissing off more people than your videos are helping.
I love that the man for whom the Peace Prize is named... invented a WMD.
Yeah, it's like when they gave a Peace Prize to the POTUS who waged multiple simultaneous wars.
I'm glad someone pointed this out
:good job:Hah, yeah, well, I scoffed at a t110 Deity Domination victory until I got my own.. live and learn.
Video?
Cromagnus
Deity
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I don't have videos, no, but I did submit my t111 Attila win to the HOF. (Pangaea, Standard, Standard Deity)
You can examine the savegames, although that may not tell you much. I'm pretty sure klaskeren took video of a sub-t100 win. If I recall, he used OCC to speed things up. Not criticizing, just saying that the tactics he used in that playthrough are specific to OCC, so the video may not be as useful. In OCC, capturing capitals insta-razes them, thus avoiding happiness issues, recapture, etc.. Especially relevant on Deity for speeding up wins.
Attila is kind of a special case. (Egypt as well)
However, any civ can win sub-t150 with roughly the same strategy. (See my Byzantium chariot archer rush HOF game for an example)
You have to adjust tactics to the Civ in question, and recognize that turn-of-victory is *heavily* influenced by the map. Even with Attila, t100 victories require a near-ideal map layout. With most civs, it's borderline impossible. (on Deity)
I think someone's posted a t12x victory that wasn't Attila/Egypt, but not to the HOF.
If I ever finish the VVV, I'll see about recording a t100 Attila run, but as little as I have time to play, that's probably months away.
