Mitchum
Deity
I gave him "UNITAI_ATTACK" this time and he moved to the bananas on T82.
SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
magnusmarcus
Prince
Lets not get too hung up on taking Kyoto. If for some reason it is too hard a nut to crack isnt there a 3d city we could divert our forces to? The longer we delay the worse it'll be. (of course thats just my opinion)
Dhoomstriker
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Yeah, while at peace, an AI seems to be more likely to generate a unit of type AI_ATTACK, which is what we want, rather than AI_COUNTER or AI_RESERVE, as an AI_ATTACK Axeman will go out and explore (and then likely later suicide by trying to retake Osaka). One minor problem is that we'll probably need to use the Axe that captured Osaka plus another Axe to garrison Osaka if Toku has a wandering Axeman nearby, so that's one more Axe that we might not be able to push toward Kyoto right away.LowtherCastle said:
The pros and cons of an early declaration (say, T83 or 84 or whenever we get the Corn) are:LowtherCastle said:
+ We'll definitely take Osaka and can take the time to heal our units
+ We'll have more turns to Bombard Kyoto, which we'll need to spend several turns doing to make up for the extra defenders that will be there
+ If I get terrible luck at Osaka, we won't have to cry
+ I could potentially plan to have 2 Axemen near Toku's wandering Archer, so as to definitely kill it... and if the first one wins, then the two Axes can probably make it to Kyoto before we'll be ready to attack there anyway
+ We'll know if Hatty is going to attack, so we'll know if we'll need to keep spamming units
+ I can afford to "waste" Catapult-turns Bombarding Osaka, giving us even better odds of keeping our units alive
- Hatty and other AIs that meet us will have a much greater chance of attacking us
- It could be that my testing doesn't match with the real game and Toku will put more than 6 units in Kyoto (not counting a wandering stack of AI_ATTACK units that wanders in and out of there)
- It could be that there isn't a Castle in Kyoto and we'll wish that we went in with a medium-sized force before Toku could build up a lot of units
That's a neat idea, but losing 1 Worker would really, really suck. I'd much rather commit a second Axeman than risk losing our Worker.LowtherCastle said:
If we're declaring early like that, then we don't really need a concentrated military force initially at Kyoto anyway. That's one of the flexible parts about declaring early, if you ask me--being able to commit 2 Axes to Toku's derelict Archer.
I think that the situation is a bit different if we don't Bombard first. If we're going to declare early (T82 or T83 range), then we'll probably use City Raider I Cats, since we'll have Bombarded away many of the City Defences by the time that we're ready to attack.Mitchum said:
If we did use Barrage-promoted Cats and they survived, then recall that Barrage I leads to Accuracy (improved Bombarding), which is probably the promo that you would take.Mitchum said:
I remember reading about a bug with Barrage... for some types of units, some of the Barrage promos don't do anything, due to not meeting breakpoints. I believe, but am not certain, that Barrage II for Cats could be one of those "relatively useless" promos.
Have we seen a wandering War Chariot or just a wandering Scout? If Hatty declared, we'd definitely want to stack our units with Spears... but we'd also want to block all 3 squares that are to the 1W, 1NW, and 1SW of Kyoto with a Spear + Axe combo ASAP, should we go with the "declare early and Bombard for a while" approach.Mitchum said:
It will be a lot shorter if we bring in a decisively-sized force. That part I tested and although I don't recall how long it took, it was less than 11 turns for certain... rough guestimate, it was like 5 turns before he was willing to talk, but then I spent another couple of turns marching on his City beyond Kyoto to get more trading value out of the Peace treaty.Mitchum said:
For that Espionage stuff about Sabotage... does the fact that Toku is Aggressive (and thus gets half-priced Barracks) come into play in the equation? I.e. Do we still divide by the base cost of the Barracks?
Mitchum
Deity
Other than Osaka, Toku has no cities west of Kyoto and the peaks that we could capture. With early Construction, we'll be able to get Kyoto, it's just a matter of having the right units, which will happen... eventually.
Dhoomstriker
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I just looked at the real game to see what you guys were talking about and the SW Toku Archer is indeed on the Grassland square that is outside of our Cultural Borders and closest to Marble City.
Here's the image that I made earlier, for your reference:
It looks like the real game's Archer is still wounded at 2.5/3 Health, giving an Axeman greater than a 96% chance of winning... so, yeah, I think that we'll be safe with just using 1 Axeman and possibly using a Warrior as a follow-up unit should our Axeman die.
Also, who cares if he ends up being on the Forested square outside of our Cultural Borders?
There is a pre-Chopped GRiv For located 2S of NC... if I Chop that, then we can probably predict where Toku's Archer will go depending upon where we put the Axeman (thanks to the test game).
So, we might as well not worry about that Archer for the timing of the war declaration.
The problem with declaring war before we own the Corn is that Toku will whip away our population points in Osaka... i.e. we would lose one of the main benefits of declaring early.
Now, if we go with the "take Osaka early" approach, we could feasibly even 1-pop-whip an Axeman or two... maybe not your ideal preference for the use of those population points, but at the same time, better to have a couple of extra Axes on hand than risk losing the City (and thereby losing the free population points, since the City would be back down to Size 1 after we recaptured it).
Here's the image that I made earlier, for your reference:
Spoiler :
It looks like the real game's Archer is still wounded at 2.5/3 Health, giving an Axeman greater than a 96% chance of winning... so, yeah, I think that we'll be safe with just using 1 Axeman and possibly using a Warrior as a follow-up unit should our Axeman die.
Also, who cares if he ends up being on the Forested square outside of our Cultural Borders?
There is a pre-Chopped GRiv For located 2S of NC... if I Chop that, then we can probably predict where Toku's Archer will go depending upon where we put the Axeman (thanks to the test game).
So, we might as well not worry about that Archer for the timing of the war declaration.
The problem with declaring war before we own the Corn is that Toku will whip away our population points in Osaka... i.e. we would lose one of the main benefits of declaring early.
Now, if we go with the "take Osaka early" approach, we could feasibly even 1-pop-whip an Axeman or two... maybe not your ideal preference for the use of those population points, but at the same time, better to have a couple of extra Axes on hand than risk losing the City (and thereby losing the free population points, since the City would be back down to Size 1 after we recaptured it).
Mitchum
Deity
I think we're all on board with an early attack on Osaka. I guess it's matter of attacking on T82 when the archer is on the bananas but before we get the corn, T83 when we should have the corn but Toku's archer is on the forest, or T84 when we have the corn and Toku's archer is on the bananas.
The longer we wait, the more units we'll have... and the more units Toku could have. Or he could complete a granary for us.
I think committing two axes for Toku's wounded archer is overkill. I haven't done the math or run a test, but our odds should be in the high 90% range on flat land. If he's on the bananas and we happen to lose, would he go toward Marble City or NC?
EDIT: X-POST with Dhoom. Great minds think alike!
The longer we wait, the more units we'll have... and the more units Toku could have. Or he could complete a granary for us.
I think committing two axes for Toku's wounded archer is overkill. I haven't done the math or run a test, but our odds should be in the high 90% range on flat land. If he's on the bananas and we happen to lose, would he go toward Marble City or NC?
EDIT: X-POST with Dhoom. Great minds think alike!
Mitchum
Deity
We gain the corn on T82 (at least in the test game). So we can declare and attack on the same turn if we go with T82. The problem is that on T81, our units will have to queue up on the road west of the corn. So the units would move to the corn (which is ours on T82) and attack that same turn. Units not involved in the attack would have to also end their turns in Osaka because it would take two moves to get there.
If we wait until T83, we can queue up our SoD on the corn on T82 so that we can attack without moving on T83. Units not involved in the attack could end their turns in Osaka or Osaka-SE.
Either way we capture Osaka on the turn we declare.
Dhoomstriker
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Shouldn't we have sent an Axeman with 3 XP toward Hammy if we wanted to cultivate a 10 XP unit up there? I mean, that's somewhere between 2 to 3 extra battles that we'll have to win without losing our unit... oh well, I guess it's a bit late to think of that idea now, since all of our 3 XP Axes are in the far east.
Toku's Archer is likely to go to the Hills square from the Forest, so we could theoretically put our Axeman on that square, but then we might have to attack across of a River, depending upon which way he goes, so I'll have to check where Toku's Archer goes in the test saved game.
Whether we attack on T82 or T83, we'll still "have more units" on T83, right? Also, if we're playing it safe versus Osaka and Bombarding, then there won't be much point in rushing a stack toward Kyoto... i.e. if we're short a half-Roaded-movement-point on T82, so be it, since we probably won't be using it anyway... I mean, it might be risky to move toward Kyoto if we only have a couple of units that can move by themselves.
Toku's Archer is likely to go to the Hills square from the Forest, so we could theoretically put our Axeman on that square, but then we might have to attack across of a River, depending upon which way he goes, so I'll have to check where Toku's Archer goes in the test saved game.
Whether we attack on T82 or T83, we'll still "have more units" on T83, right? Also, if we're playing it safe versus Osaka and Bombarding, then there won't be much point in rushing a stack toward Kyoto... i.e. if we're short a half-Roaded-movement-point on T82, so be it, since we probably won't be using it anyway... I mean, it might be risky to move toward Kyoto if we only have a couple of units that can move by themselves.
Mitchum
Deity
How many units do you plan to lose at Osaka? I don't think we need to bombard there...
I don't think we need to bombard there...Mitchum
Deity
If we wait to attack on T83, we'll have 7 cats and 5 axes on the corn. If we use 3 cats and 3 axes (assumes a third defender there), we'd still have 2 axes and 4 cats that could march toward Kyoto and begin bombarding. Although, we may have to keep two axes in Osaka should Toku have a roaming axe around.
If we attack on T82, we'll have 6 cats and 4 axes and end up with 2 axes (one wounded) and 3 cats in Osaka. Or, I guess what you're saying is that we could bombard with the 3 cats first on T82 and they could catch up with the stack on T83... That would leave 2 axes to defend Osaka. If we lose a freak battle though, we'd only have one axe.
Hmm... I guess I'd like to hear what you plan to have in the stack on T82 and how you intend to take the city with 2 defenders and 3 defenders and what will be left to defend the city.
If we attack on T82, we'll have 6 cats and 4 axes and end up with 2 axes (one wounded) and 3 cats in Osaka. Or, I guess what you're saying is that we could bombard with the 3 cats first on T82 and they could catch up with the stack on T83... That would leave 2 axes to defend Osaka. If we lose a freak battle though, we'd only have one axe.
Hmm... I guess I'd like to hear what you plan to have in the stack on T82 and how you intend to take the city with 2 defenders and 3 defenders and what will be left to defend the city.
Dhoomstriker
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No, we don't need to, but since we're attacking early (T82), the Cats will honestly have no gain by not Bombarding and moving forward (see below for why) thus we might as well increase our odds of keeping a unit or two alive by Bombarding Osaka.How many units do you plan to lose at Osaka?
We will have 6 Cats, 4 Axes, and 1 Warrior on T82.Mitchum said:
A 5th Axe can make it as far as the Corn.
Now, here's the thing: Moving from the Corn to 2 squares SE can happen once we own Osaka. But, we can't start on the Corn until Turn83 (or later if the real game's Cultural output doesn't match the test game). Sooooo...
On T82, we have our stack located NW + W of Osaka (1NW of the Corn and 1E of GEL). From there, the stack can reach Osaka via the Corn and can potentially move to the GRiv Roaded square that is 1S of Osaka. But, there is no advantage to doing so, as, once we own Osaka, that Roaded square will be ours.
Thus, whether we move any units onto that GRiv Road that is 1S of Osaka or whether we move our units to the Corn or into Osaka, it won't make a bit of difference: units from any of those locations will be able to move to the GRiv For that is SE + S of Osaka (NW + W of where our test game has Kyoto) on the following turn.
As such, we might as well do full Bombarding on Osaka.
Now, this approach gets messed up if we don't take control of the Corn on T82, but otherwise, we should own Osaka on Turn 82, with 4 turns of City Revolt. I'll just need to remember to re-assign the Corn to GEL after we capture Osaka, since Osaka auto-steals the Corn once we capture the City.
Dhoomstriker
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PPP
Turn-by-turn procedure:
1. Manually save the game
2. Check out the Espionage Spending screen and confirm whether or not we need to adjust our Espionage Weighting in order to maintain Demographic info on Hammy
3. See if I can make heads or tails out of the Sabotage production stuff
4. Look at the F4 screens to see if anything interesting changed
5. Any suggestions?
T80, 875 BC
High-level summary:
We're stopping working the Gem (for 1 turn) and shuffling around citizen assignments to get the next round of Cats and Axes out ASAP.
Most units are headed toward Toku.
NC's Axe will deal with Toku's Archer in the south-west and our Warrior will go to help out in case we fail in our attack.
Stuff to do:
Gift Mysticism to Toku
Citizens and Builds:
Delhi: SE + S Copper, Farm, GH Mine, 2 Sci (Farm instead of the western Copper, GH Mine instead of the Corn); Cat
Zlatorog: Deer, Farm, Gold (no change); Axe (no change)
GEL: Sheep, Farm, GH Mine, Gold (GH Mine instead of GRiv); Cat
NC: Pig, Copper, 2 Sci (Copper instead of the Gem); Cat
Marble City: Corn, Flood Plains, Farm, GFor (Corn instead of a GRiv); Axe
Units:
Worker 0 (SW + S of NC): 1E GRiv For (2S of NC) and finish the Chop
Worker 1 (1N of Marble City): Move SE GHRiv (1E of Marble City) and Mine
Worker 2 (2W of GEL): Finish the GH Mine
Worker 3 (2N of Delhi): 1SW GH (1NW of Delhi) and complete the Road
NC's Axeman SE + SE to the GRiv (1W of the GRiv Corn)
Delhi's Axeman heads toward GEL
Axe that is SE + SE of Delhi heads toward GEL
Cat that is W + W of GEL moves into GEL
Warrior on the GRiv Sheep moves 1S onto the GRiv 1E of GEL
The units in GEL move 1E of GEL and skip their turn
Warrior 1W of Zlat moves 1W onto the GRiv
Worker 4 (1W of Zlat): If no Barbs are visible, 1NW GRiv For and Road and Stop, otherwise build a Road on the GRiv that is 1W of Zlat
If no Barbs are visible, Axe in Zlat moves 1S GRiv Farm, otherwise moves 1NW to the Deer
Axe in Marble City: NE + NE (1E of the GRiv Copper)
Warrrior in Marble City: NW GRiv For
T81, 850 BC
(Toku's Archer is on the GRiv For S + S + S of NC)
Citizens and Builds:
Delhi: Corn, Copper, Copper, 2 Sci (Copper instead of the GH Mine, Corn instead of the Farm); Cat still (complete in 1 turn)
Zlatorog: Deer, Farm, Gold (no change); Axe: Possibly whip if a Barb unit is near, otherwise wait 1 turn to whip since we will grow in 2 turns (our Axe is already a 1-pop-whip yet we still have zero whipping unhappiness so I think we'll be fine with a 1-pop-whip)
GEL: Sheep, Farm, GH Mine, Gold (no change); Cat
NC: Pig, Gem, 2 Sci (Gem instead of the Copper); Cat (complete in 1 turn)
Marble City: Flood Plains, Farm; Axe: 2-pop WHIP
Units:
Worker 0 (S + S of NC): Move 2E (1W of the Corn) and Road and Stop
Worker 1 (1E of Marble City): Continue the Mine the GHRiv
Worker 2 (2W of GEL): NE + NE GRiv (2N of GEL) and Cottage and Stop (the test game has it as a PRiv but in the real game, it is a GRiv)
Worker 3 (1NW of Delhi): Move N + N + N onto the GHRiv For
Worker 4 (hard to say): Build some Road somewhere
Two Axes SE + SE of Delhi to the GH Mine W + W of GEL
Axe 2W of GEL moves into GEL
Cat in GEL moves 1E
The stack of 6 Cats, 4 Axes, and 1 Warrior that is 1E of GEL Skips its turn
The Scouting Axe by Hammy probably heals if the Barbs attacked him but may move SW toward the Coast
Axe near Zlat either moves SE onto the GHRiv toward GEL or deals with the Barb unit
Warrior that is 2W of Zlat does whatever he needs to do... join with our Axe if we're defending from a Barb, stay there scouting the sea, or whatever
Axe in the south-west moves 1SW to the GHRiv
Warrrior in the south-west moves 1SW to the GH
T82, 825 BC
EDIT: Stuff to do:
Science Rate to 0% (unless we want Metal Casting in 1 turn instead of in 2 turns, in which case we could go for 30%)
Citizens and Builds:
Delhi: Corn, Copper, Copper, 2 Sci (no change); Cat -> Cat (complete in 4 turns)
Zlatorog: Deer, Farm, Gold (no change); Axe: Whip itis near, otherwise wait 1 turn to whip since we will grow in 2 turns (our Axe is already a 1-pop-whip yet we still have zero whipping unhappiness so I think we'll be fine with a 1-pop-whip)
GEL: Sheep, Corn, GH Mine, Gold (switch the Farm to a Corn); switch to a Spear (we don't care that the Cat will come a bit later, so let's wait until we're 1 turn away from growth before whipping)
NC: Pig, Gem, 2 Sci (no change); Cat -> Spearman (will take 11 turns but we already have 3 Hammers invested in it--we could just not build it, too)
Marble City: Flood Plains, Farm, GRiv For (grew to Size 3); Axe -> Axe (we could have farmed a GRiv Farm by now but we're already growing quickly so we might prefer to work the GHRiv Mine next turn)
Units:
Worker 0 (NW + NW of Marble City): Move SE + E (1N of Marble City) and Farm and Stop
Worker 1 (1N of Marble City): Continue the Mine the GHRiv
Worker 2 (2N of GEL): Move NE to the GFor and Chop
Worker 3 (SE + E of Zlatorog): Chop the GHRiv For
Worker 4 (hard to say): Probably build some Road somewhere
Assuming that we own the Corn, we'll be attacking Osaka and attacking Toku's Archer on the GBanana.
EDIT:
Attached is a slightly updated test game for T80 that corrects a few minor things, such as the position of Toku's Archer in the SW and some other small things that I forget (although I added an inaccuracy in that Toku's Archer in the SW has 3/3 Health instead of 2.5/3 Health like in the real game).
Also attached is a close-but-not-exact version of the PPP... the Worker actions around Marble City were a little bit different, since I was originally going to Farm the GRiv that is 1N of Marble City but then decided that the City needed additional Hammers, not additional Food, due to its reasonable pace of growth plus its high amount of whipping unhappiness. The main part about looking at that saved game is to see the position of our units relative to Toku's City in the east and his Archer in the SW. Toku is almost certainly going to have an extra unit in Osaka, but our forces are sufficient to take down his City even if he has 2 extra units in there by Turn 82 (two turns away), which would only really happen if he had a wandering AI_ATTACK unit come to the City from, say, Delhi or another City in his empire. We can count on him having 3 units but we can easily kill 4 units, so it's not an issue that the test game still only has him having 2 units (edit in an Axeman if you feel like it).
Turn-by-turn procedure:
1. Manually save the game
2. Check out the Espionage Spending screen and confirm whether or not we need to adjust our Espionage Weighting in order to maintain Demographic info on Hammy
3. See if I can make heads or tails out of the Sabotage production stuff
4. Look at the F4 screens to see if anything interesting changed
5. Any suggestions?
T80, 875 BC
High-level summary:
We're stopping working the Gem (for 1 turn) and shuffling around citizen assignments to get the next round of Cats and Axes out ASAP.
Most units are headed toward Toku.
NC's Axe will deal with Toku's Archer in the south-west and our Warrior will go to help out in case we fail in our attack.
Stuff to do:
Gift Mysticism to Toku
Citizens and Builds:
Delhi: SE + S Copper, Farm, GH Mine, 2 Sci (Farm instead of the western Copper, GH Mine instead of the Corn); Cat
Zlatorog: Deer, Farm, Gold (no change); Axe (no change)
GEL: Sheep, Farm, GH Mine, Gold (GH Mine instead of GRiv); Cat
NC: Pig, Copper, 2 Sci (Copper instead of the Gem); Cat
Marble City: Corn, Flood Plains, Farm, GFor (Corn instead of a GRiv); Axe
Units:
Worker 0 (SW + S of NC): 1E GRiv For (2S of NC) and finish the Chop
Worker 1 (1N of Marble City): Move SE GHRiv (1E of Marble City) and Mine
Worker 2 (2W of GEL): Finish the GH Mine
Worker 3 (2N of Delhi): 1SW GH (1NW of Delhi) and complete the Road
NC's Axeman SE + SE to the GRiv (1W of the GRiv Corn)
Delhi's Axeman heads toward GEL
Axe that is SE + SE of Delhi heads toward GEL
Cat that is W + W of GEL moves into GEL
Warrior on the GRiv Sheep moves 1S onto the GRiv 1E of GEL
The units in GEL move 1E of GEL and skip their turn
Warrior 1W of Zlat moves 1W onto the GRiv
Worker 4 (1W of Zlat): If no Barbs are visible, 1NW GRiv For and Road and Stop, otherwise build a Road on the GRiv that is 1W of Zlat
If no Barbs are visible, Axe in Zlat moves 1S GRiv Farm, otherwise moves 1NW to the Deer
Axe in Marble City: NE + NE (1E of the GRiv Copper)
Warrrior in Marble City: NW GRiv For
T81, 850 BC
(Toku's Archer is on the GRiv For S + S + S of NC)
Citizens and Builds:
Delhi: Corn, Copper, Copper, 2 Sci (Copper instead of the GH Mine, Corn instead of the Farm); Cat still (complete in 1 turn)
Zlatorog: Deer, Farm, Gold (no change); Axe: Possibly whip if a Barb unit is near, otherwise wait 1 turn to whip since we will grow in 2 turns (our Axe is already a 1-pop-whip yet we still have zero whipping unhappiness so I think we'll be fine with a 1-pop-whip)
GEL: Sheep, Farm, GH Mine, Gold (no change); Cat
NC: Pig, Gem, 2 Sci (Gem instead of the Copper); Cat (complete in 1 turn)
Marble City: Flood Plains, Farm; Axe: 2-pop WHIP
Units:
Worker 0 (S + S of NC): Move 2E (1W of the Corn) and Road and Stop
Worker 1 (1E of Marble City): Continue the Mine the GHRiv
Worker 2 (2W of GEL): NE + NE GRiv (2N of GEL) and Cottage and Stop (the test game has it as a PRiv but in the real game, it is a GRiv)
Worker 3 (1NW of Delhi): Move N + N + N onto the GHRiv For
Worker 4 (hard to say): Build some Road somewhere
Two Axes SE + SE of Delhi to the GH Mine W + W of GEL
Axe 2W of GEL moves into GEL
Cat in GEL moves 1E
The stack of 6 Cats, 4 Axes, and 1 Warrior that is 1E of GEL Skips its turn
The Scouting Axe by Hammy probably heals if the Barbs attacked him but may move SW toward the Coast
Axe near Zlat either moves SE onto the GHRiv toward GEL or deals with the Barb unit
Warrior that is 2W of Zlat does whatever he needs to do... join with our Axe if we're defending from a Barb, stay there scouting the sea, or whatever
Axe in the south-west moves 1SW to the GHRiv
Warrrior in the south-west moves 1SW to the GH
T82, 825 BC
EDIT: Stuff to do:
Science Rate to 0% (unless we want Metal Casting in 1 turn instead of in 2 turns, in which case we could go for 30%)
Citizens and Builds:
Delhi: Corn, Copper, Copper, 2 Sci (no change); Cat -> Cat (complete in 4 turns)
Zlatorog: Deer, Farm, Gold (no change); Axe: Whip itis near, otherwise wait 1 turn to whip since we will grow in 2 turns (our Axe is already a 1-pop-whip yet we still have zero whipping unhappiness so I think we'll be fine with a 1-pop-whip)
GEL: Sheep, Corn, GH Mine, Gold (switch the Farm to a Corn); switch to a Spear (we don't care that the Cat will come a bit later, so let's wait until we're 1 turn away from growth before whipping)
NC: Pig, Gem, 2 Sci (no change); Cat -> Spearman (will take 11 turns but we already have 3 Hammers invested in it--we could just not build it, too)
Marble City: Flood Plains, Farm, GRiv For (grew to Size 3); Axe -> Axe (we could have farmed a GRiv Farm by now but we're already growing quickly so we might prefer to work the GHRiv Mine next turn)
Units:
Worker 0 (NW + NW of Marble City): Move SE + E (1N of Marble City) and Farm and Stop
Worker 1 (1N of Marble City): Continue the Mine the GHRiv
Worker 2 (2N of GEL): Move NE to the GFor and Chop
Worker 3 (SE + E of Zlatorog): Chop the GHRiv For
Worker 4 (hard to say): Probably build some Road somewhere
Assuming that we own the Corn, we'll be attacking Osaka and attacking Toku's Archer on the GBanana.
EDIT:
Attached is a slightly updated test game for T80 that corrects a few minor things, such as the position of Toku's Archer in the SW and some other small things that I forget (although I added an inaccuracy in that Toku's Archer in the SW has 3/3 Health instead of 2.5/3 Health like in the real game).
Also attached is a close-but-not-exact version of the PPP... the Worker actions around Marble City were a little bit different, since I was originally going to Farm the GRiv that is 1N of Marble City but then decided that the City needed additional Hammers, not additional Food, due to its reasonable pace of growth plus its high amount of whipping unhappiness. The main part about looking at that saved game is to see the position of our units relative to Toku's City in the east and his Archer in the SW. Toku is almost certainly going to have an extra unit in Osaka, but our forces are sufficient to take down his City even if he has 2 extra units in there by Turn 82 (two turns away), which would only really happen if he had a wandering AI_ATTACK unit come to the City from, say, Delhi or another City in his empire. We can count on him having 3 units but we can easily kill 4 units, so it's not an issue that the test game still only has him having 2 units (edit in an Axeman if you feel like it).
LowtherCastle
Deity
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I only saw the trapped Hatty scout and a Hatty uber-archer DRILL II(?) wandering about south of Osaka.
Here's the formula. As you can see, what really jacks up the RefuseToTalk time is his WarSuccess. Beelining Kyoto and not bombarding defenses will probably cause a fairly long wait, because we'll lose a lot of cats, even against only three defenders, assuming normal odds that is.
Good questions. You use the final hammer cost when dividing by the cheapest building (barracks = 50h regardless of AI trait).
You get the final hammer production when dividing SabProd by the hammer factor. So if SabProd tells you Osaka put 10h into some build and you know Osaka couldn't have worked 10h or even 10 food-hammers, then it must be Osaka building a barracks or some other 2X build.
True. I think I'd still rather have all 3/2XP axes available for Toku. We have time, so hopefully those extra battels will present themselvs before Hammy settles southeastward. Worst comes to worst, we can create a 10XP with our first GG, though I'd rather settle him in our HE city.
LowtherCastle
Deity
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Thanks for the PPP, Dhoom. It's been a while since you played a turnset and I had forgotten how much I like your attention MM detail. 
My main concerns are threefold:
1. Building cats before axes,
2. Working our gold and gems non-stop,
3. Growing Delhi and Zlatorog.
Building cats before axes
Building a cat in Marble (and Delhi and GEL) before more axes pays off in two ways: 1) They start bombarding Kyoto sooner and 2) we lower our unit costs slightly by building the more expensive units first. This was actually my strategy during my turnset except that I mis-judged how many units we needed for Osaka+Kyoto, so I started cranking out the axes too soon. Fortuitously, we'll need those axes for defense after capturing Osaka, so we're covering my mistake by attacking Osaka on T82 or so.
T80 gems mine
The need to skip the gems tile for 1 turn seems to come from my plan to pre-build the axe in Marble for a 2whip. If we pre-build a 2whip cat in Marble instead, then Marble isn't limited to working 4h on T80 and can take the copper tile instead. That allows Delhi to take the other copper and work the farm, thus growing instead of shrinking. Delhi is so close to pop6, that we really want to get it up there so it can continue growing by working another farm. NC is thus able to continue working the gems and pigs. Plus, we get another cat sooner!
The GEL gold mine
I like your idea of delaying the GEL 2whip! That makes sense. We could take it one step farther and grow GEL to pop5 before 2whipping, thus allowing us to work the gold+sheep+corn straight through and get the cat 1t sooner! In my test below, I tried a variation on yours by working the GRiv instead of the mine (which I didn't finish, it can be finished by the next worker traveling east from the Delhi/Marble area). That allows us to grow to pop5 1 turn sooner. The chop then allows us to crank out 2 cats on two consecutive turns. At this rate we'll have a ton of cats bombarding and should blast a hole through the castle a turn or two sooner. I haven't carried it through yet but I'd like to after writing this up.
Growing Zlatorog
I see two possibilities for Zlatorog, in addition to the plan in your PPP.
1) 2whip barracks and chop the 3/2XP axe. This delays the axe build beyond the arrival date of the barb warrior (IT before T84), so we would have to put our warrior T80 W to check for safety and T81 back to the chokepoint. Clogging the chokepoint will allow the barbs to go in random directions again rather than beelining us. The odds are, that will delay them enough to finish our 3/2 axe and we unclog the chokepoint at the appropriate time. Inm this variant, we can risk sending the current axe to Kyoto.
2) Grow Zlatorog. In this variant we farm Zlatorog 2S, thus allowing the deer forest to possibly spread, gradually build another axe then barracks, while farming as many tiles as we decide and mining those GRivHills. This enables Zlatorog to contribute significantly to the Hammy campaign and also to creat a lot of cash with all those river tiles. The added population also helps increase our bonus against our unit costs. This variant also keeps our population in reserve in case we need to poprush to defend against a Hammy invasion.
Personally, I prefer to grow Zlatorog simply because it has so little food. It really needs to be working the deer and a couple of farms minimally to grow normally while working the gold tile. Furthermore, sending that axe across our empire seems a bit extreme to me. We can test it a bit, but I'm thinking we'll have enough axes and cats for Kyoto, without this one.
Btw, I ran a quick estimate of our Kyoto bombardment, assuming we used 4 cats for Osaka, with varying amounts of damage, including 1 dying. I think Kyoto will be at 0% defenses by T92 at the latest, hopefully a turn or two sooner. That about fits with his Refuse ToTalk time and are axe production, I think. We should be able to get 3 axes or 2 cats out of Osaka two, depending on our needs.
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Dhoom, how are you now for time? If you can delay playing these turns till Thursday, I'd like to see yoru response to my suggestions.
Below is a test save for T82 that shows my variation on your PPP. Although I sent the NC worker toward Marble, as you did, this turn he could finish the pre-road at Delhi-1SW and then finish the pre-farm at Delhi-NE in time for growth to pop6. Similarly, the farm at Zlatorog-2S can be completed in time for pop4.
We need to think a bit about where we need improvements the most. I think you're right that the Marble mine may be more important than the farm, though having both will surely be useful.
My main concerns are threefold:
1. Building cats before axes,
2. Working our gold and gems non-stop,
3. Growing Delhi and Zlatorog.
Building cats before axes
Building a cat in Marble (and Delhi and GEL) before more axes pays off in two ways: 1) They start bombarding Kyoto sooner and 2) we lower our unit costs slightly by building the more expensive units first. This was actually my strategy during my turnset except that I mis-judged how many units we needed for Osaka+Kyoto, so I started cranking out the axes too soon. Fortuitously, we'll need those axes for defense after capturing Osaka, so we're covering my mistake by attacking Osaka on T82 or so.
T80 gems mine
The need to skip the gems tile for 1 turn seems to come from my plan to pre-build the axe in Marble for a 2whip. If we pre-build a 2whip cat in Marble instead, then Marble isn't limited to working 4h on T80 and can take the copper tile instead. That allows Delhi to take the other copper and work the farm, thus growing instead of shrinking. Delhi is so close to pop6, that we really want to get it up there so it can continue growing by working another farm. NC is thus able to continue working the gems and pigs. Plus, we get another cat sooner!
The GEL gold mine
I like your idea of delaying the GEL 2whip! That makes sense. We could take it one step farther and grow GEL to pop5 before 2whipping, thus allowing us to work the gold+sheep+corn straight through and get the cat 1t sooner! In my test below, I tried a variation on yours by working the GRiv instead of the mine (which I didn't finish, it can be finished by the next worker traveling east from the Delhi/Marble area). That allows us to grow to pop5 1 turn sooner. The chop then allows us to crank out 2 cats on two consecutive turns. At this rate we'll have a ton of cats bombarding and should blast a hole through the castle a turn or two sooner. I haven't carried it through yet but I'd like to after writing this up.
Growing Zlatorog
I see two possibilities for Zlatorog, in addition to the plan in your PPP.
1) 2whip barracks and chop the 3/2XP axe. This delays the axe build beyond the arrival date of the barb warrior (IT before T84), so we would have to put our warrior T80 W to check for safety and T81 back to the chokepoint. Clogging the chokepoint will allow the barbs to go in random directions again rather than beelining us. The odds are, that will delay them enough to finish our 3/2 axe and we unclog the chokepoint at the appropriate time. Inm this variant, we can risk sending the current axe to Kyoto.
2) Grow Zlatorog. In this variant we farm Zlatorog 2S, thus allowing the deer forest to possibly spread, gradually build another axe then barracks, while farming as many tiles as we decide and mining those GRivHills. This enables Zlatorog to contribute significantly to the Hammy campaign and also to creat a lot of cash with all those river tiles. The added population also helps increase our bonus against our unit costs. This variant also keeps our population in reserve in case we need to poprush to defend against a Hammy invasion.
Personally, I prefer to grow Zlatorog simply because it has so little food. It really needs to be working the deer and a couple of farms minimally to grow normally while working the gold tile. Furthermore, sending that axe across our empire seems a bit extreme to me. We can test it a bit, but I'm thinking we'll have enough axes and cats for Kyoto, without this one.
Btw, I ran a quick estimate of our Kyoto bombardment, assuming we used 4 cats for Osaka, with varying amounts of damage, including 1 dying. I think Kyoto will be at 0% defenses by T92 at the latest, hopefully a turn or two sooner. That about fits with his Refuse ToTalk time and are axe production, I think. We should be able to get 3 axes or 2 cats out of Osaka two, depending on our needs.
---
Dhoom, how are you now for time? If you can delay playing these turns till Thursday, I'd like to see yoru response to my suggestions.
Below is a test save for T82 that shows my variation on your PPP. Although I sent the NC worker toward Marble, as you did, this turn he could finish the pre-road at Delhi-1SW and then finish the pre-farm at Delhi-NE in time for growth to pop6. Similarly, the farm at Zlatorog-2S can be completed in time for pop4.
We need to think a bit about where we need improvements the most. I think you're right that the Marble mine may be more important than the farm, though having both will surely be useful.
Dhoomstriker
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I forgot to mention:Dhoomstriker said:
Depending upon what our Zlatorog Warrior reveals in terms of Barbs, which will dictate whether the Zlatorog Axeman can head toward GEL or not, then Worker 3 will instead build a Road segment between Delhi and Zlatorog, saving the Axeman 1 turn of movement.
Of course, if the Axeman is needed to deal with an incoming Barb unit, then Worker 3 can just perform the Forest Chop first instead.
Dhoomstriker
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Okay, thanks. Going in with no Spears but having one ready to be created in GEL isn't the most ideal of situations but if Hatty is unlikely to have a War Chariot nearby, we should have enough time to get such a Spearman to the front lines in time should she declare war and then need to mobilize her units.LowtherCastle said:
That explanation helps a lot, thanks!LowtherCastle said:
That's fine by me. It's not like it really makes sense to turn one of them around at this point and march him to the far north-west anyway.LowtherCastle said:
While it may not feel like an ideal situation, we can at least get a Super Medic out of the deal, so it wouldn't be a total waste.LowtherCastle said:
It is said that using a Scout unit makes for a good Super Medic, since he already starts with 2 movement points and won't come up as the stack defender.
I have used a Chariot as a Super Medic in the past and then had it come up as the defender in a stack of Axemen when a Chariot attacked. If you had a stack of Chariots, then the Super Medic could also come up as the stack defender quite easily, as it would have the Combat I promo and, if I recall correctly, when 2 defending units have the same amount of defensive bonus, the one with the most XP comes up as the defender (meaning that a stack of Combat I Chariots would have the Super Medic Chariot being the stack defender--ugh).
The cost of this level of detail is that it takes a long time to put together. That's why I prefer to have a reasonably-agreed-upon high level plan before coming up with a PPP, since all of the detailed work can be quickly thrown away if we decide to go down a different path.LowtherCastle said:
When I start playing, though, I'd like to get in there and rename some of our units... the Worker that doesn't have a number will become Worker 0, for example, and other units will get relevant names... it's much easier to talk about "Warrior 2" than it is to talk about "the Warrior that is 2SE of such-and-such a City."
Certainly, we can do that. The reason why I put an Axeman there was because the way that the Hammers came out allowed us to get 2 Axes right after each other.LowtherCastle said:
So, it's either 1 Cat or 2 Axes relatively quickly.
Cats are more valuable but I thought that we might prefer to have 2 Axes instead of 1 more Cat... I'm happy to change it, if you prefer, though.
Then again, there is that Forest which I did not Chop... let's see... 2 Axes = 2 * 35 = 70 Hammers... 1 Cat is... oh darn, I forget.
Let's say 50 Hammers, although I'm not positive. 70 Hammers + 30 Hammers from the Forest Chop = 100 Hammers.So, yeah, we could make it 2 Cats instead of 2 Axes... that idea works better.
Agreed, the army has a nicely-balanced mix that allows us the flexibility of attacking on T82 (assuming that in the real game, we get the Corn on that turn).LowtherCastle said:
Well, that may have been your reason, but my reason was:LowtherCastle said:
I'm fine with delaying this Axeman, but it will come out a couple of turns later (I forget if it is 2 turns later or 3 turns later). By then, it might arrive too late to be of use at Kyoto.Dhoomstriker said:
One turn of not working the Gems square for a single turn seemed to be a reasonable sacrifice just to bring one more unit to bear on the front lines.
If we fail to capture Kyoto, we'll lose a lot more than 1 turn's worth of not working a Gems Mine.
That approach is fine by me if we don't mind delaying the NC Axeman as a result, to the point that said Axeman probably won't contribute to the war on Kyoto.LowtherCastle said:
The idea will fall flat if Hatty declares and has a stack of War Chariots already in Kyoto, since delaying this whip means delaying both our Cat from there as well as our only Spearman. I think it's a reasonable risk, given that Hatty hasn't shown us any shiny, new War Chariots yet.LowtherCastle said:
I'll respond to the rest later.
Dhoomstriker
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As for the shrinking of Delhi bit...
I was thinking that we should focus on getting Marble regrown and completing Delhi's Cat, both of which happen on T82.
So, technically, on T82, we could switch Delhi from working the southern Copper to working the Flood Plains square, allowing it to regrow quicker so that it can work the extra GRiv Farm that much sooner.
It will mean that the Cat takes longer to get to Kyoto, so there is a trade-off involved.
I could be wrong, though.
Otherwise, we could just vary this idea by delaying it: still 1-pop-whip the Axe and then execute this plan, just on a delayed schedule.
I do want to grow Zlatorog on Farms so that it can eventually switch to working GHRiv Mine squares, which will be the main power of this City.
I wouldn't mind having overkill units at Toku and a minimal force to handle Hammy, particularly since Hammy is so far away from us and since we haven't seen any evidence of a stack of his units marching our way.
We can't have it all... if I don't send the existing Zlat Axe to the east and if I work the Gems square non-stop in NC (thus delaying it's Axe), then from where will our remaining Axes come from?
Don't forget that we should not really plan to have "just enough" Axes... by declaring war earlier, we'll have a greater chance of being involved in a war with Hatty. We have to plan for some unit losses.
I'm much more fearful of Hatty sending in units via Toku's Road network than I am of Hammy marching units across a non-Roaded series of Barb-filled squares, which is why I'd rather have the bulk of our army in the east.
So, as you can see, it is all inter-related.
Just by sending the Zlatorog Axe to the east, a bunch of other decisions go along with it:
- whipping a replacement Axe in Zlat
- getting Roads so that the whipped Axe can get into place sooner
- not needing a Farm since we'll 1-pop-whip
Whereas if we keep the Zlat Axeman near Zlat:
- we can slow-build the Axe (or even a Barracks if we really want)
- we don't really care about the Roads to the west of Zlat yet, since the Axe can just walk to the west without their aid
- our Zlat Worker is thus free to build a Farm
That's why I was asking for some sort of consensus on how large of an army we wanted, so that little decisions like "do we send the Zlat Axe to the east or not" could become easier to decide. One seemingly insignificant decision can have a huge impact on the micromanagement.
Alternatively, we could just build a Farm there first, then the Mines, but then we'd have "dead" Worker actions, such as us needing to Road one of the Hills squares or the GRiv square 1N of Marble City just to avoid losing a Worker turn.
Instead, Farming the GRiv 1N of Marble City seems to fill this need for using up Worker actions while moving between the two Hills squares, so if we are okay with working a GRiv or GRiv For square for 1 turn instead of a GRiv Farm, we'll make better use out of our Worker actions.
I could probably even Mine the GH that is 1W of Marble City first, getting it completed sooner, but it doesn't come with +1 Commerce, so overall, we're probably better off building the 1E of Marble City GHRiv Mine first.
I was thinking that we should focus on getting Marble regrown and completing Delhi's Cat, both of which happen on T82.
So, technically, on T82, we could switch Delhi from working the southern Copper to working the Flood Plains square, allowing it to regrow quicker so that it can work the extra GRiv Farm that much sooner.
If we're going to do that, then no point even dumping Hammers into a Cat and we can just aim to manually complete the Spearman sooner, thus reducing the risk of a Hatty declaration.LowtherCastle said:
It will mean that the Cat takes longer to get to Kyoto, so there is a trade-off involved.
I don't have the game open and I didn't write down the Foodbox level, but I seem to recall that we were a few turns away from growing to Size 4, meaning that a 2-pop-whip is still a ways off.LowtherCastle said:
I could be wrong, though.
If we don't end up needing the Axeman that we are building in order to deal with the Barbs, we can do so.LowtherCastle said:
Otherwise, we could just vary this idea by delaying it: still 1-pop-whip the Axe and then execute this plan, just on a delayed schedule.
I do want to grow Zlatorog on Farms so that it can eventually switch to working GHRiv Mine squares, which will be the main power of this City.
Ahhh, I see what you're saying... you don't even want to send the Axe to the east. Well, our army for Toku has to come from somewhere. We can't "not whip" in every City... Zlatorog has no whipping unhappiness, so it can afford a whip.LowtherCastle said:
I wouldn't mind having overkill units at Toku and a minimal force to handle Hammy, particularly since Hammy is so far away from us and since we haven't seen any evidence of a stack of his units marching our way.
We can't have it all... if I don't send the existing Zlat Axe to the east and if I work the Gems square non-stop in NC (thus delaying it's Axe), then from where will our remaining Axes come from?
Don't forget that we should not really plan to have "just enough" Axes... by declaring war earlier, we'll have a greater chance of being involved in a war with Hatty. We have to plan for some unit losses.
I'm much more fearful of Hatty sending in units via Toku's Road network than I am of Hammy marching units across a non-Roaded series of Barb-filled squares, which is why I'd rather have the bulk of our army in the east.
By the looks of things, Delhi already has a Farm square to grow into and as long as we keep those Scientists hired (I think it was around 11 turns before we got our next Great Person), then we don't need yet another Farm in Delhi for a little while.LowtherCastle said:
That's true, but in exchange we won't have the Roads to the west. We won't need this Farm if we whip Zlatorog.LowtherCastle said:
So, as you can see, it is all inter-related.
Just by sending the Zlatorog Axe to the east, a bunch of other decisions go along with it:
- whipping a replacement Axe in Zlat
- getting Roads so that the whipped Axe can get into place sooner
- not needing a Farm since we'll 1-pop-whip
Whereas if we keep the Zlat Axeman near Zlat:
- we can slow-build the Axe (or even a Barracks if we really want)
- we don't really care about the Roads to the west of Zlat yet, since the Axe can just walk to the west without their aid
- our Zlat Worker is thus free to build a Farm
That's why I was asking for some sort of consensus on how large of an army we wanted, so that little decisions like "do we send the Zlat Axe to the east or not" could become easier to decide. One seemingly insignificant decision can have a huge impact on the micromanagement.
Here's the other aspect of it: getting to the GHRiv square that is 1E of Marble City and the GH square that is 1W of Marble City and already has a turn of a Mine invested into it will not be easy unless our Workers have something to do "on the way." I'm treating the Farming of the GRiv square that is 1N of Marble City as the "on the way task."LowtherCastle said:
Alternatively, we could just build a Farm there first, then the Mines, but then we'd have "dead" Worker actions, such as us needing to Road one of the Hills squares or the GRiv square 1N of Marble City just to avoid losing a Worker turn.
Instead, Farming the GRiv 1N of Marble City seems to fill this need for using up Worker actions while moving between the two Hills squares, so if we are okay with working a GRiv or GRiv For square for 1 turn instead of a GRiv Farm, we'll make better use out of our Worker actions.
I could probably even Mine the GH that is 1W of Marble City first, getting it completed sooner, but it doesn't come with +1 Commerce, so overall, we're probably better off building the 1E of Marble City GHRiv Mine first.
Mitchum
Deity
Dhoom, check if any AI goes WHEOOHRN manually each turn in case the fist icon bug is real.
I agree with LC and tyring to work the gems in NC. I'm also not a fan of losing 2F in Delhi for a turn.
You could build an axe in NC rather than a cat. This axe would be done in 1T rather than the cat in 2T and you can work the gems mine.
Then, as discussed, you chould build two cats in Marble City (1 to replace the one you're not building in NC as mentioned above) with a 2-pop whip and a chop.
Why did you have Worker 3 road Delhi-NW on T80? He could just as easily go straight to the GHill and chop straight away. I could see building this road if you then followed it up by another road at Delhi-2NW to connect NC to Delhi and get the road going to the NW toward Zlatorog.
There is also a partial mine and Delhi-W that we could complete, although I think farms are more important there.
I thought we wanted to keep the axe built in Zlatorog to stay there in case of a DOW by Hammy. If we move this axe toward Toku, we may have to whip Zlatorog. Like LC, I'd prefer to grow Zlatorog into working more farms/mines.
I prefer a farm to a mine in Marble City. With an MP there after killing Toku's stray archer, it still has some growth/whipping available to it.
EDIT: I'm slow... x-post with Dhoom.
I agree with LC and tyring to work the gems in NC. I'm also not a fan of losing 2F in Delhi for a turn.
You could build an axe in NC rather than a cat. This axe would be done in 1T rather than the cat in 2T and you can work the gems mine.
Then, as discussed, you chould build two cats in Marble City (1 to replace the one you're not building in NC as mentioned above) with a 2-pop whip and a chop.
Why did you have Worker 3 road Delhi-NW on T80? He could just as easily go straight to the GHill and chop straight away. I could see building this road if you then followed it up by another road at Delhi-2NW to connect NC to Delhi and get the road going to the NW toward Zlatorog.
There is also a partial mine and Delhi-W that we could complete, although I think farms are more important there.
I thought we wanted to keep the axe built in Zlatorog to stay there in case of a DOW by Hammy. If we move this axe toward Toku, we may have to whip Zlatorog. Like LC, I'd prefer to grow Zlatorog into working more farms/mines.
I prefer a farm to a mine in Marble City. With an MP there after killing Toku's stray archer, it still has some growth/whipping available to it.
EDIT: I'm slow... x-post with Dhoom.
Mitchum
Deity
@Dhoom
Zlatorog will grow to size 4 on T83 if we don't whip there.
Your current PPP has you building a cat, not an axe, in NC.
The axe in Zlatorog will take 9 turns to get to Osaka and 12 turns before he could assault Kyoto. That's a long time. I prefer to keep it near Zlatorog and begin the long journey to 10 exp. Then Zlatorog can grow and become a production powerhouse for the upcoming Hammy war.
Zlatorog will grow to size 4 on T83 if we don't whip there.
Your current PPP has you building a cat, not an axe, in NC.
The axe in Zlatorog will take 9 turns to get to Osaka and 12 turns before he could assault Kyoto. That's a long time. I prefer to keep it near Zlatorog and begin the long journey to 10 exp. Then Zlatorog can grow and become a production powerhouse for the upcoming Hammy war.
LowtherCastle
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Dhoom, several of your comments are addressed by my test save, which I assume you can't look at till you get home from work. For example, I build the road connection Delhi-NW-NW, which speeds up the NC axe getting to Kyoto. This road connection also halfway connects Zlatorog for the future. Also, we're still poprushing like crazy: Marble, GEL, Osaka.
Anyway, if you take a look at my save it'll be a lot easier to see how my suggestions with with your PPP, I think. I'm in total agreement on having plenty enough axes at Kyoto. I still haven't run a test through to T92, but my feeling is that we'll have plenty, because that's a lot of turns.
How large an army for Kyoto? My guess it will be upwards of a dozen cats and 10 axes, but we'll see during that time if we really need that many. This will pay off, though, because we'll easily get Alpha+IW+Archery if our formula is correct. By the way, it's not just about enough to capture Kyoto, it's about enough to send one or more to threaten Samsuto or Tokyo.
I like your idea of using the Marble-N farm as a midway point for workers. That's actually what the mine at GEL-2W is...
xpost w/Mitchum
.
Anyway, if you take a look at my save it'll be a lot easier to see how my suggestions with with your PPP, I think. I'm in total agreement on having plenty enough axes at Kyoto. I still haven't run a test through to T92, but my feeling is that we'll have plenty, because that's a lot of turns.
How large an army for Kyoto? My guess it will be upwards of a dozen cats and 10 axes, but we'll see during that time if we really need that many. This will pay off, though, because we'll easily get Alpha+IW+Archery if our formula is correct. By the way, it's not just about enough to capture Kyoto, it's about enough to send one or more to threaten Samsuto or Tokyo.
I like your idea of using the Marble-N farm as a midway point for workers. That's actually what the mine at GEL-2W is...
xpost w/Mitchum
.
