Attilla Deity Victory... slightly hollow

I finally beat Deity, and can now claim I've beaten the game at every level it has to offer.

But it's a slightly hollow victory. A lot of people have said Battering Ram is OP, and I agree with that to an extent. It can't clear the way to the cities, but if you luck out on a goodie hut, you pop archery and are one tech away from Horse Archers very quickly. Then, the Horse Archers clear the way and you take city after city.

Moreover, Attilla is the most starting-area dependant civ in the game. Here's why:

Pangea
Duel
Deity
Standard game pace
(everything else on the default settings)

In this situation, I know there will be only one other civ, and that, chances are, it will appear to my left or to my right. If I guess correctly, I will know the quickest route to the AI by exploring the terrain between us. If there's a lot of mountains, jungle, forest, or hills in the way between us, re-roll. If I guess wrong when I begin exploring (left vs right), re-roll. If I don't end up with more than 1 pasture tile for hammers, re-roll. If I end up facing a military oriented side (Mongols, Japanese, Aztecs, Greeks), re-roll.

If after all of that I haven't encountered a re-roll sign, I can usually win, especially if I pop a goodie hut and get a free Battering Ram or get Archery as a free tech. Tech correctly, go honor, send some Horse Archers and Battering Rams down the quickest route possible, and I finish off by facing a non-military-oriented side (Egypt, the Dutch, etc.). And if I'm especially lucky, the capital of that side will be on my side of the river it starts on, or will be in open plains.

The key to this strategy is not improvisation, or an overly deep understanding of how to use diplomacy and build order and religion and social policies. The key to this strategy is stubborn, mindless persistance using a checklist on every attempt to make myself not waste time on the difficult rolls.

I know this is how rushes typically work (zergling rush, bowman rush, whatever), that it's a gamble based on distance to foe and the odds that that foe won't have enough units up. But this is an almost guarenteed win if you know merely the basic game mechanics and are willing to kill a few hours starting over and over again.

I don't mean this to be a post-action report or whatever. This is a critique of the only side that can feasibly beat Deity without building anything other than units (for the most part). I never actually tried to beat Deity before tonight, and I did it in ~2 hours. I usually play at Emperor. I can now say that, though happy to beat Deity, I feel like I need to try with another side before I can say I feel fully satisfied, because even an Immortal (Persia) rush takes more thought than Attilla.

As a quick afterthought, I'd say the Dutch are the second most starting-area dependent side (need marshes or flood plains, neither of which are super common). The Romans and Japan are the third most: no iron = reroll.

I've done this before. It's especially easy if you get a wonder builder as your opponent like egypt. Except I did it on a great plains map, which was a little easier.

One opponent as Attila doesn't seem all that challenging

Well, you can't balance the game around Duel settings.....

BobDole said:

Well, you can't balance the game around Duel settings.....

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I know. I just wanted to beat Deity finally, and this got me there. From here, I intend to do an all-standard Deity game (including standard map size) with someone other than Attila. To me, the game seems balanced best at all-standard... one might think a Huge-size map might be tougher, but there's more people to trade with, more room to hide, and sometimes more room to expand because of dumb luck. On standard map size, it's rare that you'll get more than 4-5 cities planted before touching borders with someone else.

My intent in the OP was more to say that Attila is too dumbed down. Maybe bumping the Battering Ram up to swordsmen and requiring iron would make it so that you have to at least build a couple buildings on Deity (it would encourage building a forge, if nothing else). I just don't like the fact that Attila can be played like an RTS game... pump units, attack, win.

nefloyd said:

One opponent as Attila doesn't seem all that challenging

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On the opposite tack, many opponents as the Dutch isn't all that challenging either. There's many ways to stack the deck other than Attila with one opponent. Aztecs with raging barbs on epic or marathon speeds, for one.

I agree with you, but I'm just saying that it wouldn't make much sense to go as England on Highlands, or Germany with no barbs. If I'm going to pick a civ, I want to make sure I get full effect of the UA and UU's. The Hunnic UU is good only for such a short window on Deity that I didn't expect the Battering Ram to be as effective as it was; a few of the times I tried at first, I tried to build a granary to help populate production tiles, only to realize I was better off building nothing but units as I lost those times. The only reason I think winning with Attila on Deity is slightly hollow is that on a duel map, I don't even need to build a single building, not even a granary. Even on Duel I feel Deity should require a blend of picking the right units and right buildings, no matter who you play as, not just right units. The same scenario could possibly play out on a Tiny map, as well, depending on whose capital I take to start the ball rolling against the 3 AI's: just use the new city to build even more units.

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Ultimately, like I said in the OP, I know I was stacking the deck slightly... I just didn't realize that doing so with Attila would make the game quite as mindless to win as it was

Don't fool yourself. You just said you re-rolled if a), b), c), d), etc.. You can win only in some conditions that give you the upper hand (as you described). Try to win when the odds are against you and then claim that playing Attila is "mindless".

Just my 2 cents.

beat 12 diety AIs then u can claim you beat the game, duel is all luck

ahawk said:

I finally beat Deity, and can now claim I've beaten the game at every level it has to offer.

But it's a slightly hollow victory. A lot of people have said Battering Ram is OP, and I agree with that to an extent. It can't clear the way to the cities, but if you luck out on a goodie hut, you pop archery and are one tech away from Horse Archers very quickly. Then, the Horse Archers clear the way and you take city after city.

Moreover, Attilla is the most starting-area dependant civ in the game. Here's why:

Pangea
Duel
Deity
Standard game pace
(everything else on the default settings)

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Surely a duel map favours pretty much anybody? Very obviously Attila for a very early win, but I just won my first Immortal victory on a duel map (I play random map size) as Siam - simply having less competition for wonders and first techs to worry about, not to mention CS control does that.

I feel like I need to try with another side before I can say I feel fully satisfied, because even an Immortal (Persia) rush takes more thought than Attilla.

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I'm not sure I'd go that far - and having to reroll him all the time doesn't suggest he's an easy win, he's just an easy win in ideal situations. But an Immortal rush is fairly mindless (and earlier-tech than Attila's rush, since it doesn't rely on Chariot Archers). Comparing two mindless strategies is somewhat meaningless.

Ethiopia vs. The Huns...

After having four civs fall before the Renaissance Era (3 for me, 1 for The Huns) the Huns finally decided to declare on me on around turn 150. They sent like 6 Battering Rams, two warriors and 6 Swordsmen to my weakest city vs. my three swordsmen, a purchased knight, catapult, and two composite bowmen. I completely annihilated them, plopping a citadel down!! I've since upgraded my composite bowmen and catapult and am a few turns away from being able to upgrade my swordsmen. Once I do this I plan to pounce. Aside from The Huns there is also Babylon and Byzantine. I first attacked a city on around turn 70. I thought I would delay getting to Renaissance as much as possible so the other civs couldn't steal my techs.

Funny thing is that I've yet to see any Horse Archers, lol!! Of course I haven't advanced beyond emperor... maybe I should cause sometimes when I play G&K emperor feels like warlord!

So in this game The Huns and their Battering Ram have been quite ineffective

ahawk said:

As a quick afterthought, I'd say the Dutch are the second most starting-area dependent side (need marshes or flood plains, neither of which are super common). The Romans and Japan are the third most: no iron = reroll.

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Running a bit OT, but wanted to mention:

Polders are a nice perk and have good synergy with the Dutch UA, which encourages players to settle near a diverse number of luxuries. This usually means to settle more land, which in turn makes Polders better (because you'll have more marshes).

You can have a eight to ten city wide empire with just a handful of Polders and it's fine (done this on Immortal and Deity). The UA is what does the heavy lifting for them.

So you stacked a game to win, and are surprised that you did?

Slightly hollow??!!??

Esperr said:

So you stacked a game to win, and are surprised that you did?

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... And then re-rolled every time he didn't get the starting conditions he wanted. I think your attitude to the concept of 'victory' is the problem here, not the game.

Let's say you re-rolled 5 times before winning 1 game. In that case, you have a success rate of 1/6 - you lost 5, won 1. Just because you're overlooking all the times you failed, doesn't mean you're winning easily.

jahsoldier said:

... And then re-rolled every time he didn't get the starting conditions he wanted. I think your attitude to the concept of 'victory' is the problem here, not the game.

Let's say you re-rolled 5 times before winning 1 game. In that case, you have a success rate of 1/6 - you lost 5, won 1. Just because you're overlooking all the times you failed, doesn't mean you're winning easily.

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Fair enough... lose 5, win 1.

Then I'd ask: what is the average win/loss ratio for Attilla on a Duel map on Deity? Just because I re-roll doesn't mean I necessarily lose more often than someone who finished all 6 games; it's entirely possible someone could lose 5 games they played to a finish as well, and that my ratio is no better or worse than theirs. Maybe losing 5 and winning 1 is at least comparatively easy to playing on Deity with another strategy/civ/map type.

But I'm not just asking rhetorically: What is a normal win/loss ratio for the average player with Attilla/Duel/Deity?

No idea - I only said the 1/6 thing as an example though, how many times did you actually re-roll? You said you spent a few hours re-rolling, so I'd guess it was a lot more than that.

I'm just not sure what point you're trying to make. You didn't 'stack the deck slightly' as you said earlier, you cheesed the game relentlessly until you found a situation where you couldn't lose. Now you seem to be complaining/bragging about it.

Tastes like mozarella But that's how I won my first Deity game aswell, and I like mozarella so it's all good!

I am old school and consider beating the game using the old Civ 1 style. Standard player #, Standard Continent Map, and hardest game difficulty.

That said I normally play on Emperor or Immortal for fun. Diety doesn't allow you to get nearly every wonder and build amazing super cities.

jahsoldier said:

No idea - I only said the 1/6 thing as an example though, how many times did you actually re-roll? You said you spent a few hours re-rolling, so I'd guess it was a lot more than that.

I'm just not sure what point you're trying to make. You didn't 'stack the deck slightly' as you said earlier, you cheesed the game relentlessly until you found a situation where you couldn't lose. Now you seem to be complaining/bragging about it.

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I'm not attempting to brag or complain, but rather to ask what a good ratio actually is and compare. That's all. I'm not suggesting 1/6 is world-class, but for a first time beating Deity, maybe that's not any worse than most first times beating Deity. I never said anything about 1/6 making me an awesome player... the whole point of the thread is to suggest that Attilla might have been the wrong way to go about getting that first Deity win, nothing more.

I went with the 1/6 ratio because that's about what it was, actually. In 2 hours, I spent maybe an average of 10-20 minutes a roll. Every time I got at least 2 pastures within the start, so I didn't immediately re-roll at any point. Had I got only 1, I would have, though. Several times I had 3 or 4.

I wouldn't say that's 'relentless'. And if I was bragging, I'd be telling you I beat Deity with Attilla via Science or Culture, not Battering Rams on a Duel map.