SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout

Just a quick post to let Tallanas know he's not alone.

I've got it, and will play tonight after a more careful reading of NP and Tal's comments.

@Tal: I've just skimmed it at this point, but nice job with Democracy, and good call to revolt. :thumsup: (I read somewhere that you get a shorter anarchy if you're the first to a gov't tech and revolt immediately...)

Order of go:

Gengis Khan: MAI
Tallanas: Revolutionary Extraordinaire
Scout: UP
Mistfit: On Deck
Northern Pike: Warming up

Fine round, Tallanas. Our getting to democracy with only three turns lost to anarchy is a great step forward.

I'll say it again: I don't think we can catch up to the other teams while relying on natural population growth. We desperately need a worker pump somewhere. Tallanas, I'm not criticizing your decision to let Berlin grow, since after all our capital ought to be a highly productive city. But I think we have to either start building workers in Berlin after it completes its university, or (as I suspect the rest of you would prefer) turn Hannover into our source of workers. If we make the latter choice, we should change Hannover's build from university to granary, and rush the granary immediately.

The worker-merging campaign I have in mind is particularly important in connection with our late Forbidden Palace. We need to have New Berlin surrounded by size-twelve cities not long after it completes the FP. A second core of cities struggling up from size seven to size twelve at their own pace won't be enough.

We're clearing jungle with a lot of small worker stacks, which really isn't the way to do it. Outside Konigsberg, two stacks of two workers each still have six turns to go. If all four workers were on the same tile, Konigsberg would have one extra cleared tile to work already. A similar situation exists in the jungles outside Dortmund.

Scoutsout, a few points:

1. Since the discussion of this issue is scattered over various posts, I'll repeat here that the bank in Salzburg is a Wonder pre-build, and mustn't complete. Salzburg will need adjusting once the workers there finish the lastest mine.

2. Konigsberg could now keep a tenth citizen happy, so you might want to restore a food surplus there once the nearby jungle squares are cleared.

3. Now that we have French furs, New Berlin (our FP city) can keep a seventh citizen happy, so it's vital that we should merge another worker into the town. Once this is done, it should be possible to get four shields per turn out of the town after corruption with no food surplus--although this may require some deft tile-swapping, since we're cutting down the forests around New Berlin at a great rate.

Northern Pike said:

I'll say it again: I don't think we can catch up to the other teams while relying on natural population growth. We desperately need a worker pump somewhere.

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Your point on the worker pump is well taken NP. I'd like you to look at the next save and offer your thoughts... it's a different game now.

turn Hannover into our source of workers. If we make the latter choice, we should change Hannover's build from university to granary, and rush the granary immediately.

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I wish you had posted that before I played my turns... dang. That was a good suggestion.

The worker-merging campaign I have in mind

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Oaky - that's it - NP has a good idea - and I want to give him a chance to refine it.

@ Mistfit: Post your got it at your leisure, but please wait at least 48 hours to play, so that NP can have a chance to look at the save and offer some thoughts on his worker-pump grow-our-second-core strat.

We're clearing jungle with a lot of small worker stacks, which really isn't the way to do it. Outside Konigsberg, two stacks of two workers each <snip>

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I consolidated the 4 outside K'berg, which you'll like. Then I pushed them to chop jungle and make roads in 2 crappy cities, which you won't like.... but we need to get each of our crummy cities at least 1 workable tile, and a connection to the empire...

1. Since the discussion of this issue is scattered over various posts, I'll repeat here that the bank in Salzburg is a Wonder pre-build

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I tried to play it that way, but we lost Smith's to a cascade....

Konigsberg could now keep a tenth citizen happy

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One thing that will look a LOT different is the happiness situation. I got us a couple of lux deals. New Berlin looks different now, and our FP should be complete either at the end of Mistfit's next turnset, or at the beginning of Tal's.

I'm going to shut up now, upload the save, and post a turnlog.

Pre-flight check:

Tallanas mentioned our score, and I see part of our problem. We have a lot of our citizens who are only content, and many unhappy ones. Spices, Ivory, WM, 260g to Mao for Silks.
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IBT - some minor shuffling among AI
Frankfurt Market>Library
Stuttgart court>Worker (too much jungle)
We get a border expansion that gets a saltpeter, which is then promptly exhausted.
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Turn 1 (810) Some worker moves, and that's about it. Set Salzburg up to grow a little, since it's happier now.
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IBT - Bradenburg Market>Bank
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Turn 2 (820)
France, Russia, India, and China all have Economics.
Trade India Ivory for Economics to start the burn on Chemistry
Set Konigsberg to Smiths, Salzburg to Palace.
Rush a Library in New Munich to get some salt
New Berlin: Put a citizen on forest, join a citizen, and shave FP build to 23t.
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IBT - Not much
Stuttgart Worker>Market
New Munich Library>Market
The English are building Sun Tzu's
The Chinese are building Smith's
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Turn 3 (830)
Gift Economics to Japan
Stop a forest chop near New Berlin (Forest shields don't help small wonders...)
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IBT - China completes Sistine (Here comes the cascade)
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Turn 4 (840) mostly worker moves, and we need more workers in the south to hack this civ out of the jungle.
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IBT - Berlin University>Bank, New Nuremberg Library>Court
The French are building Smith's, Paris completes Leo's, in Paris, and Smith's trading company in Lyons
Japanese are building Bach's, Magellan's
Indians are building Bach's, Magellan's
Chinese are Building Bach's,
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Turn 5 (850)
Change K'burg back to Palace for Newton's...I wish it didn't already have Copernicus'...
Still can't figure out what to do with this settler...
Buy a Japanese worker for 30g
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IBT - 3 French swords poke their heads out of ...Stasbourg
Frankfurt Library>Knight (I want 2 more)
Nuremberg Aqueduct>University
Salzburg Bank>University
New Frankfurt Library>Market
The English are building Sun Tzu
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Turn 6 (860)
Take Science down, Chemistry next turn
Some worker moves, we have saltpeter now...
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IBT - Chemistry comes in, queue to Physics, ratchet up to get in 5
Hamburg Market>University
Cologne Knight>Musket
Russians building Bach's
French building Magellan's
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Turn 7 (870)
France, Russia, and Japan all have Chemistry
Sell it to India (gracious) for 40g.
China for WM+30g
Give it to England. 16g is chump change, and she's at war.
Continue whacking at some jungle...
By the way, I've been clearing the fog in the ocean with our caravels, to try to add some margin of value to our WM...
Crank Science to 90% to try to beat France to Physics
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IBT - Russians want a RoP & Alliance v. England.
I give her a gift of 10g as a token of my esteem
New Cologne Library>Harbor
We get a new front door for the Palace. Looking at this palace, it's hard to believe we're knocking on the door of the industrial age.
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Turn 8 (880)
I found Tallatown on the SE coast, among some jungle. For some reason Tallanas seems fond of jungle.
Joining another worker to New Berlin did not help our FP build.
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IBT - Dortmund Market>Rax
New Hannover Library>Market
Our Palace gets a second floor
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Turn 9 (890)
...mostly worker moves here.
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IBT - Hannover University>Bank
New K'burg Court>Market
ANOTHER Palace expansion
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Enlish are building Sun Tzu's...
Chinese are building Shakepeare's Theater...(hmmm...)
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Turn 10 (900)
Holy @%$#% the entire WORLD has Free Artistry...except Japan
Take science down to 60%, Physics due next turn
Change Frankfurt's Knight build to University
Change New Hamburg's Court build to a market (FP will fix NH's corruption problems, and it really needs a market)
Start working on a road to connect another incense (for trade...)
Some jungle cuts...
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IBT - Physics comes in, start ToG @ 70%, -10gpt, due in 5
French building Shake's
Why are the English continuing to reset their Sun Tzu build? I fear they are not long for the world...
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Turn 11 (910)
We are up physics on the whole world. [dance]

Let's see...shopping Physics...
France will offer us Free Artistry, WM, 74gpt, 20g...
China offers FA, WM, 48gpt, 90g.

I take china's first offer. I've been attacked by France before after a lucrative GPT for a tech deal. Take a somewhat more modest 20g+41gpt from France. Russia gives 60g+18gpt. Trade Physics and Free Artistry to Japan for Wines. This should make a nice dent in our happiness problems. Lighten Ghandi's wallet by 40g, and give Phsyics to England.

Science to 90%, +12gpt, Theory of Gravity in 4.
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IBT - Fireworks start popping off - it's We love the Chancellor Day in most of our cities.
Dortmund Rax>Musket
The Japanese are building Shakespeare's Theater
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Turn 12 (920)
France has Metallurgy, and will not trade it at any price.
We have one surplus incense, and with ToG due in 3, we might be able to trade for Metallurgy.

After a couple of worker moves, we also have a surplus spice now. Japan, India, and Russia all lack spices. My thoughts - hang on to the spices for the day we need to renew a lux deal with Japan.

some worker moves, and that's gonna do it for this round...

Some thoughts on research - every research beaker in the world is now bringing us closer to the Industrial Age.

We lost Smith's to a cascade, and Sun Tzu's isn't finished yet... hopefully the palace build in K'berg won't be for naught.

After ToG comes in, I think we should set the queue to a hard burn for Magnetism, and try to trade for Metallurgy. We could either hope a couple more AI discover it, or trade ToG to France for Metallurgy.

This means that Mistfit will be ushering in the Industrial Age. I can't recall if you can manipulate the free tech in Vanilla or not... I know there was a time that Nationalism was always the free tech... it might be possible for us to get Steam Power if we set the queue to Nationalism after we learn Magnetism.

Once in the industrial age, we need to bring everybody with us - especially the Russians if they get a different free tech to start the IA...

@NP - Believe it or not, I'm not worrying about the other teams. The Gold Laurel is awarded for the fastest variant win, not the highest scoring.

How do you think we're doing on the tech pace?

Somebody said that Kuningas' team was the only one to beat us to the Middle ages... and I think we got through the MA okay... Sun Tzu's isn't even finished yet!

scoutsout said:

We get a border expansion that gets a saltpeter, which is then promptly exhausted

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Grrr!!

Nice turns otherwise, I particularly like the trading, good work! And Tallatown, I kinda liked that too


Tal

scoutsout said:

Some thoughts on research - every research beaker in the world is now bringing us closer to the Industrial Age.

Click to expand...

Yep, we are seeing some real research going on amongst the AI. I know that France are leading the way, but they are not doing it all by themselves.

scoutsout said:

We lost Smith's to a cascade, and Sun Tzu's isn't finished yet... hopefully the palace build in K'berg won't be for naught.

Click to expand...

Shame about Smith's. When I posted about France building 4 wonders at once, I thought it was funny. Now I won't be so flippant!

scoutsout said:

After ToG comes in, I think we should set the queue to a hard burn for Magnetism, and try to trade for Metallurgy. We could either hope a couple more AI discover it, or trade ToG to France for Metallurgy.

This means that Mistfit will be ushering in the Industrial Age. I can't recall if you can manipulate the free tech in Vanilla or not... I know there was a time that Nationalism was always the free tech... it might be possible for us to get Steam Power if we set the queue to Nationalism after we learn Magnetism.

Click to expand...

As far as I know, 1.29f made the free tech able to any of the 3 starters. In a recent game, two scientific nations got different starting techs when the Age changed over, so I assume it's not set in stone. Anyone know a sure fire way of getting the right one?

scoutsout said:

@NP - Believe it or not, I'm not worrying about the other teams. The Gold Laurel is awarded for the fastest variant win, not the highest scoring.

How do you think we're doing on the tech pace?

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Yep, it's fastest win all right. And personally, I think we are setting a blistering pace...

scoutsout said:

Somebody said that Kuningas' team was the only one to beat us to the Middle ages... and I think we got through the MA okay... Sun Tzu's isn't even finished yet!

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Like I said, we are smoking!

Tal

Thanks Tal - trading is going to be key to this game. Something that we need to check ... we need to make sure that there are harbors in Japan, India, and China, with mapped ocean routes to each. If somebody goes to war with somebody else over there, and we lose a trade route with an active trade...

If there is one thing we must avoid as an absolute imperative, it's taking a rep hit. The rest of the world is going to be upset enough with us for taking the UN...

Something I learned the hard way in GOTM30: If you drop off troops on someone else's shores, get the "move or declare" from the AI IBT, and you declare war with troops in the AI territory, it counts the same as a RoP Violation.

@ Tal: For Mistfit's benefit (and to save me some typing) How about filling us in on something you learned about rep hits recently?

scoutsout said:

@ Tal: For Mistfit's benefit (and to save me some typing) How about filling us in on something you learned about rep hits recently?

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Oh that! That wasn't me! I mean, I know it was in our other SG, but it was Bede! Or Planetfall! But not me...

I mean, honestly! Could I possibly not have known that you take a nasty rep hit if...

1) You sign an alliance with Civs A, B and C to defeat the evil Civ X...

2) You proceed to annihilate that Civ X, taking his last city before cancelling the alliance with Civs A, B and C in turn...

Does that sound like me?

Apparently, the AIs think that it counts exactly the same as if you had just cancelled the alliance, for instance by signing a peace treaty with your mutual enemy...

So beware! No alliances! We don't need war, thanks

Tal

scoutsout said:

@NP - Believe it or not, I'm not worrying about the other teams. The Gold Laurel is awarded for the fastest variant win, not the highest scoring.

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Sure, I understand what our objective is. But worker-merging is a powerful win-win strategy which will speed up the tech pace, and put us in a better position for the eventual war, as well as improving the Jason score that doesn't concern us.

Good stuff, Scoutsout. I may have more detailed comments after I study the save. I'll try to post my ideas about the worker-merging campaign within the next four hours or so, so as not to keep Mistfit waiting.

@NP: Check Munich for a Granary... I seem to remember building a granary up there to supplement the settlers out of Berlin when it became apparent there was so much land to grab... I don't know if it's too far south to work for your strat, but we can't be too far from Steam Power...

Yeah, there are certainly a few granaries knocking around...

Where are the Pyramids again?

The worker pumps, and other points:

1. Worker-merging can contribute so much to our growth at this point that I think we should devote two second-ring cites to producing workers. Hannover and Nuremberg should both switch to granary builds, and rush them immediately. Nuremberg's workers can then be used to pump up New Berlin and its seven first-ring cites, while Hannover's workers go to our original first ring (and also Bremen and Cologne) until all these cities have as many citizens as they can feed, and then to the second core. Hannover and Nuremberg will probably both fall to size six in the course of this project; this is perfectly all right, given the benefits we'll be getting elsewhere.

(Scoutsout and Tallanas, thanks for your useful comments on the granary situation. But I think it's worth purpose-building two granaries to get our worker pumps where we really want them, in second-ring cities with good population growth.)

The only real complication involved in worker-pumping is that it's necessary to reset the cities involved to the most efficient combination of food and shields every time they spit out a worker, since the city governor takes the opportunity to put the remaining citizens on the most asinine tiles possible. Apart from that, it's just a question of moving the workers to their destinations in a disciplined way, resisting the temptation to use them on tile improvements "just for a couple of turns".

2. In our new and improved luxury situation , New Berlin (our FP city) could keep a ninth citizen happy. So another worker should be merged into the town right away, which might well get us a fifth shield after corruption there.

3. Although it goes against the grain to destroy existing tile improvements, sooner or later Bonn's three mined grassland squares will have to be irrigated. Surrounded by hills and mountains as it is, Bonn will only be able to support a useful population with all six of its potential grassland tiles (three are jungle right now) irrigated.

@NP: This is really good stuff... so good in fact, that I think I'm going to let this slip into "Training Day Game" mode for a couple of turnsets. (I'm learning from this too.)

A bit of background: When we lost a couple of players, Gengis and I invited Mistfit to join in from Gengis' Training Day Game.

I think what you're suggesting is really good stuff, but don't be surprised if Mistfit needs a little more advice pulling it off. Tallanas may pop in with some questions too... and I hope he does, because if GK doesn't show up in the next couple of days, Tal may want some pointers too.

And I'll go ahead and tell you - I usually don't break away from "mine green, irrigate brown" until after I have hospitals...

So....

@ Mistfit: I'm going to 24-72 for you - post a got it, but take as much time as you need to take in all this stuff. (It's a lot, I know..)

@ NP - I'm going to step aside and let you steer the conversation from this point.

Ok, I like the sound of this worker merging. Before now, I had considered this tactic to be close enough to "dogpiling" for it to be considered exploitative in an SGoTM. However, I have just checked again in the RBCiv Tactics articles, and been pleasantly surprised

So second-ring cities with good growth sound like prime targets for rush granaries and worker production. My flippant comment about the Pyramids above should be disregarded


@Np: a tiny point, and one born of curiosity only - when you talk about Bonn supporting a useful population, how many did you have in mind. Or is the answer to that question always "as many as it possibly can?"


Tal

Hmm, just taken a look at the save. Damn vanilla for not being able to see the details of trade agreements!!

PTW next time


Tal

Ok I'm back.... Good god this came back to me quick. Lots of stuff to digest so give me a a bit to take in the information and I will be back with my questions before picking up the game. BTW Great Job guys...This is certainly a different game then when I last played. Nice addition to the team!
Edit: Can someone post a screen shot of our FP ring? I do not have Civ on my work computer, and that is where I'm at at the moment

Mistfit said:

Edit: Can someone post a screen shot of our FP ring? I do not have Civ on my work computer, and that is where I'm at at the moment

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Glad you're with us Mistfit!

Take your time with this, because there are a couple of things that could make your turns interesting. Here's the screencap:



Nuremberg and Brandenburg are actually RCP9 from Berlin (Second ring capitol). I have no idea what they will look like when the FP is complete.

To grow past size 6, New Leipzig, New Munich, and New Hannover will need aqueducts, as will New Heidleburg and New Cologne.

Well, stone me. I always thought that all seven first ring FP cities were RCP 4. Now I see that Brandenburg is a rogue!

How did that happen?

Another, utterly non-urgent question for Scout... I assume you made that map with the Rings program from the CivReplay suite... How does one zoom in on that? I never have managed to find out, which makes for some fun, if eye-watering, close in gazing!