Tallanas
Gunboat Diplomat
Initial thoughts - with one RCP5 city, and one RCP4 - what is the way forward from here?
SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
mr Tweed
Chieftain
ok ive got the pic and wprked out how to upload it but i c theres no need now howeverm, and to tal the whole idea on rcp is 2 reduse corruption across the board, the differnece in corruption between a pcp5 city and an rcp4 city in miniscule een less with a courthouse and less again with a police staion, if we keep the inital ring all between rcp4 and rcp5 im sure we wont be able to spot the difference.
qm1pooh
Sailor Man
Well, I get home from work and things sure have changed a bit 
I'm thinking Hamburg is actually at RCP3, so that strategy will have to change a bit. Hamburg will also need a lot of work to get some food so it will grow.
The barbs are out, so maybe some units are in order. I guess we just settle some of the better looking places on the map, but I would like to let Berlin's population grow a bit before another settler.
I'm thinking Hamburg is actually at RCP3, so that strategy will have to change a bit. Hamburg will also need a lot of work to get some food so it will grow.
The barbs are out, so maybe some units are in order. I guess we just settle some of the better looking places on the map, but I would like to let Berlin's population grow a bit before another settler.
Tallanas
Gunboat Diplomat
Sorry for the triple post, just posting that map Scout asked for...
I have done each city site a different colour so we can talk about them easily.
The sites I would think best are done in individual colours - other valid RCP5 sites are in light blue. Note that some of the sites are RCP5.5 but until Scout told me about the rounding issue, I did not know that was allowed. So thanks, Scout
I would have recommended founding them in the following order - RED, GREEN, YELLOW, PURPLE, ORANGE/WHITE, PINK.
This would be partly based on land value, partly on land grab issues with Russia...
Anyway, now that we have two cities on none of those sites, feel free to take this map with a pinch of salt
Tal
I have done each city site a different colour so we can talk about them easily.
The sites I would think best are done in individual colours - other valid RCP5 sites are in light blue. Note that some of the sites are RCP5.5 but until Scout told me about the rounding issue, I did not know that was allowed. So thanks, Scout
I would have recommended founding them in the following order - RED, GREEN, YELLOW, PURPLE, ORANGE/WHITE, PINK.
This would be partly based on land value, partly on land grab issues with Russia...
Anyway, now that we have two cities on none of those sites, feel free to take this map with a pinch of salt
Tal
Attachments
qm1pooh
Sailor Man
@ Tal- Those are all good looking sites, and the build order towards the better lands is solid.
One observation- we are a long way from the coast to get some galleys out. Will the corruption out there effect us much?
One observation- we are a long way from the coast to get some galleys out. Will the corruption out there effect us much?
Gengis Khan
Deity
mr Tweed said:
Unfortunatly, that's not how RCP works. RCP uses the fact that all cities of the same distance away from the capitol get the same (low) rank corruption. Since we now have a city thats 4 tiles away(rank 1), all our cities that are built at five will get rank 2(that's if we don't build any more 4 tile cities). That can be the difference in 10 or so corrupted sheilds per turn short term, and alot more then that once we get cities above size 6.
I only see 2 options: Throw RCP out the window, or raze the city.
qm1pooh
Sailor Man
Gengis Khan said:
Now I'm a little confused. I count Hamburg 2 tiles diagonal and 1 tile oblique from Berlin for RCP 3.5. Would that not round down to RCP 3
Gengis Khan
Deity
You're correct, I was looking at the dotmap all squinty eyed.
qm1pooh
Sailor Man
So, I guess the question is what to do with Hamburg. Even with a temple it will only have 1 grassland in its radius, and a total of 2 grasslands and 3 plains after forestry operations.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Wow! It's not often that a discussion runs away from me! This is great!
@ Tal: Thanks for the dotmap work - that looks good. Consider this: Take your "yellow" site, and move it S-SW. I think that's still an RCP5 site...and it wouldn't crowd Leipzig quite so badly. I could be wrong, but I think Tweed put that city there because Gengis liked that spot.
@"Q": good question on Hamburg. Unfortunately, it would need a lot of worker turns to get it past size 3.
@Tweed: from some of the confusion among others surrounding the RCP calculations, I should have done a better job of discussing RCP. If I had done that, you might have put Hamburg a tile to the north. My fault/"poor leadership".
My take on Hamburg, lets pump it for warriors for a while. It should produce a warrior every other turn or so when it hits size 2...
I'll post some other thoughts later. My turns are next, but I'll probably wait for plenty of discussion before playing them... so everybody will have a reasonable idea what to expect when I'm done.
@ Tal: Thanks for the dotmap work - that looks good. Consider this: Take your "yellow" site, and move it S-SW. I think that's still an RCP5 site...and it wouldn't crowd Leipzig quite so badly. I could be wrong, but I think Tweed put that city there because Gengis liked that spot.
@"Q": good question on Hamburg. Unfortunately, it would need a lot of worker turns to get it past size 3.
@Tweed: from some of the confusion among others surrounding the RCP calculations, I should have done a better job of discussing RCP. If I had done that, you might have put Hamburg a tile to the north. My fault/"poor leadership".
My take on Hamburg, lets pump it for warriors for a while. It should produce a warrior every other turn or so when it hits size 2...
I'll post some other thoughts later. My turns are next, but I'll probably wait for plenty of discussion before playing them... so everybody will have a reasonable idea what to expect when I'm done.
Gengis Khan
Deity
I was also considering moving the Yellow S-SW, but we still have it crowded by the red.
Something else we could consider trying(just to warn you this is definitly unorthadox) we can found the red, green, purple, yellow in that order. Pump out workers from Leipzig. Since all the tiles we'll be improving there will be used by the red/yellow, once we have a good chunk of workers in the field we can abandon the city, making more room for those 2.
This has us throwing away 2 settlers, but will balance out short term gain(lots of workers) with long term(more room for our cities).
I don't really see any alternative to pumping warriors out of Hamburg & abandoning it when we're ready to found the purple.
Something else we could consider trying(just to warn you this is definitly unorthadox) we can found the red, green, purple, yellow in that order. Pump out workers from Leipzig. Since all the tiles we'll be improving there will be used by the red/yellow, once we have a good chunk of workers in the field we can abandon the city, making more room for those 2.
This has us throwing away 2 settlers, but will balance out short term gain(lots of workers) with long term(more room for our cities).
I don't really see any alternative to pumping warriors out of Hamburg & abandoning it when we're ready to found the purple.
qm1pooh
Sailor Man
Gengis Khan said:
It's unorthodox, but we still get to harness the power of RCP later. Leipzig and Hamburg won't be for naught, as we'll still get workers and warriors in the interim.
Do we allow Berlin to grow into a settler factory, or just keep pumping them out and build the other cities?
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
I think we need to let Berlin grow just a little. Settler factories tend to do a little better long-term when they're size 4 or 5 when they start building a settler. You can get a settler or two out faster sacrificing growth, but we're probably looking at another 15-20 settlers. This landmass looks pretty big, even if there are a lot of mountains that deny us sites.qm1pooh said:
Gengis Khan
Deity
I'd let it grow into a settler factory. If we keep pumping them out now they'll take longer, and we won't be able to do much with the cities.
However if we grow it a bit we can turn it into a 4 or 5 turn factory, right about the same time Leipzig comes online as a decent worker pump. That way our settlers can have worker support immediatly, and we'll get alot more cities(though not as quickly) in the long run.
We're going to need to start planning a military factory, and GL-prebuild city next. I'm thinking the red city for the factory, with some of those plains irrigated it can get to decent size & have roughly 5spt or so. I'm thinking the green will make a good pre-build city, it has the wheat & a BG for growth and plenty of forests around for production.
Opinions? Or am I looking to far ahead?
However if we grow it a bit we can turn it into a 4 or 5 turn factory, right about the same time Leipzig comes online as a decent worker pump. That way our settlers can have worker support immediatly, and we'll get alot more cities(though not as quickly) in the long run.
We're going to need to start planning a military factory, and GL-prebuild city next. I'm thinking the red city for the factory, with some of those plains irrigated it can get to decent size & have roughly 5spt or so. I'm thinking the green will make a good pre-build city, it has the wheat & a BG for growth and plenty of forests around for production.
Opinions? Or am I looking to far ahead?
qm1pooh
Sailor Man
Gengis Khan said:
Forward looking thinking is never out of style in Civ
Red city will also help with commerce once we get the ivory roaded. With the worker pump next door, it won't be too hard to get up to speed.
Green city is also a good idea, and with the river between it and Russia it will be easier to defend.
mr Tweed
Chieftain
when i placed the citys i did have leipzig in mind fora worker factory and hamburh for the prebuild for gl. after hamburhg has expanded in 24 turns it will have 2 b grasslands + gold mountain + 2plains forest +grassforest. isnt this good enough for expansion/prebuild? i spse we could have hamburg expand then prebuild then once we have education we can disband it, or is this too much of a waste?? or is it 2 far ahead for the use needed from the rcp?
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
@ Tweed - thanks for posting your thoughts - it's easier to understand things when you know the 'why' behind the actions. I see your goal (a GL site) and now I see why you put hamburg there - lots of shields.
While Hamburg is a shield rich site, it lacks food. Since we're in despotism, we basically need to have a bonus floodplain tile to put a citizen on a mountain and keep a city growing. For every citizen on a mountain, you need 2 surplus food from the remaining squares in order to feed that one citizen. While the gold/mountain tile is powerful, we'll need to get out of despotism to be able to tap that power - since irrigated grass doesn't give any more food. The other tiles all produce shields, but only 1 food/tile. A forest chop will be needed just to get the thing past size 2. If we did follow through and build a temple there, followed by a wonder, any shields from the forest chop can't be used to build a wonder.
A quick digression for Tweed - when you posted that you were tired from work and school, I wish I had been a little more adamant about resting up and catching up on the discussion before playing. Maybe you didn't want to disappoint the team by delaying your turns, or maybe you're aware that in a lot of SGs they get really hard-core on slow play - but I'm not interested in counting the hours to an auto-skip.
Scout's rule for Scout: We're not going to auto-skip anybody on this team that is actively participating in the discussion.
On cultural expansions: The reason I draw the nine-tile city radius around a dot in a dotmap (as opposed to a 21 tile radius) is to force myself to look at what that city would get right away. Maybe that's a little short sighted, I don't know.
A quick digression: When I was "stuck at Regent", I was also "stuck on Egypt". I was convinced that the Religious and Industrious traits were the 'best'. And I used to build temples all over creation. In GOTM 31, I don't think I built more than about 6 or 8 temples. And the only reason I did that was to build cathedrals in some size 13+ cities that could benefit from cathedrals. (Implicit in this is that I didn't build many temples or cathedrals until the industrial age, after getting sanitation)
A note on Temples: We pay "full price" for temples. We might want to consider making our first 'cultural' improvements libraries, which are half price for us, and plowing our early shields into our other trait: Militaristic.
Having said that - When Hamburg reaches size 2, it might be a good place for building some archers. The barb settings on this game are supposed to be high, and having some archers early on might be a Good Thing.
I'm not ready to abandon Hamburg any time soon, but I don't want to invest anything in improvements if we should decide to abandon it eventually.
Leipzig, on the other hand, might be a long-term keeper...we'll figure it out.
A question:
I know we need to get some good cities up and running soon, but what do you all think about the spices south of Berlin? I would sure hate to see the Russians claim those, and they are right between Berlin and Moscow...
While Hamburg is a shield rich site, it lacks food. Since we're in despotism, we basically need to have a bonus floodplain tile to put a citizen on a mountain and keep a city growing. For every citizen on a mountain, you need 2 surplus food from the remaining squares in order to feed that one citizen. While the gold/mountain tile is powerful, we'll need to get out of despotism to be able to tap that power - since irrigated grass doesn't give any more food. The other tiles all produce shields, but only 1 food/tile. A forest chop will be needed just to get the thing past size 2. If we did follow through and build a temple there, followed by a wonder, any shields from the forest chop can't be used to build a wonder.
A quick digression for Tweed - when you posted that you were tired from work and school, I wish I had been a little more adamant about resting up and catching up on the discussion before playing. Maybe you didn't want to disappoint the team by delaying your turns, or maybe you're aware that in a lot of SGs they get really hard-core on slow play - but I'm not interested in counting the hours to an auto-skip.
Scout's rule for Scout: We're not going to auto-skip anybody on this team that is actively participating in the discussion.
On cultural expansions: The reason I draw the nine-tile city radius around a dot in a dotmap (as opposed to a 21 tile radius) is to force myself to look at what that city would get right away. Maybe that's a little short sighted, I don't know.
A quick digression: When I was "stuck at Regent", I was also "stuck on Egypt". I was convinced that the Religious and Industrious traits were the 'best'. And I used to build temples all over creation. In GOTM 31, I don't think I built more than about 6 or 8 temples. And the only reason I did that was to build cathedrals in some size 13+ cities that could benefit from cathedrals. (Implicit in this is that I didn't build many temples or cathedrals until the industrial age, after getting sanitation)
A note on Temples: We pay "full price" for temples. We might want to consider making our first 'cultural' improvements libraries, which are half price for us, and plowing our early shields into our other trait: Militaristic.
Having said that - When Hamburg reaches size 2, it might be a good place for building some archers. The barb settings on this game are supposed to be high, and having some archers early on might be a Good Thing.
I'm not ready to abandon Hamburg any time soon, but I don't want to invest anything in improvements if we should decide to abandon it eventually.
Leipzig, on the other hand, might be a long-term keeper...we'll figure it out.
A question:
I know we need to get some good cities up and running soon, but what do you all think about the spices south of Berlin? I would sure hate to see the Russians claim those, and they are right between Berlin and Moscow...
qm1pooh
Sailor Man
scoutsout said:
I think we should probably try to run a block on the Russians until we have a settler to get down to the spices. We have a lot of other needs that need to be met with our first few settlers (pre-build, units). On the other hand, maybe Leipzig and Hamburg will provide enough until we get a settler down there? Hard to say.
@ Tweed- I also saw your thoughts on your moves. Don't worry about being too slow, I overanalyze everything so much my grandmother could play faster than I do
Besides, there is a lot of good discussion on this team, and I definitely want to see more of your input.
Tallanas
Gunboat Diplomat
Gengis Khan said:
I like these ideas very much. Certainly Hamburg can't stay if we have an RCP strategy, but it can be an excellent short term unit pump
I would say that city improvements would be a waste here, though.As for the red and yellow vs Leipzig... I like the idea of having those two cities, as it would take a colossal city on the current Leipzig site to work all the good squares around there! Having said that, what a city it would be
Anyway, my advice now would be pretty much the same - pump military units from Hamburg, workers and settlers from Leipzig, and get founding Green, Purple, Red and Yellow (together, and as Leipzig is abandoned, once we have enough workers).
I agree with you that Green is a good pre-build city. In fact, it's a damn nice site all round...
scoutsout said:
Agreed - with barbarians raging around and the Russians to have a war with, we need armies more than temples...
scoutsout said:
scoutsout said:
Like I said above, my preferred founding order would now be Green then Purple... Purple would need to be defended well, I think...
Tal
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
I'll be playing my turns this evening. I was up in another SG last night, and it took me a little while because it was a game I joined mid-stream. Which reminds me...
I can't remember which of the 3 "new to SGs" teammates PM'd me yesterday on SGs in general... but that's a very good way to get involved in an SG. As you guys get more into SGs, (and get to know others) opportunities will present themselves. Somebody you've 'met' will drop you a PM with "we just had a slot open up in so-and-so, got game?"
Joining a game in progress presents an interesting challenge, because you have to size up a sitation that may be well-developed and complex. Last night (first turns in this game) I was dropped right into the middle of a war with Vikings, with a banged-up Stack of Doom on the doorsteps of Trondheim that had almost, but not quite, taken the city a few turns earlier. Re-grouping, reinforcing, and taking Trondheim was tricky, but fun!
Just something to chew on while you guys wait for me to play my turns. It sounds like we have a consensus on "Green" as a good next city site. I doubt I'll get more than 1 settler out, because I plan to let Berlin grow a bit. I'll probably invest a few worker moves around Leipzig so it can produce more workers... we are going to need a LOT of worker moves to develop our core...
I can't remember which of the 3 "new to SGs" teammates PM'd me yesterday on SGs in general... but that's a very good way to get involved in an SG. As you guys get more into SGs, (and get to know others) opportunities will present themselves. Somebody you've 'met' will drop you a PM with "we just had a slot open up in so-and-so, got game?"
Joining a game in progress presents an interesting challenge, because you have to size up a sitation that may be well-developed and complex. Last night (first turns in this game) I was dropped right into the middle of a war with Vikings, with a banged-up Stack of Doom on the doorsteps of Trondheim that had almost, but not quite, taken the city a few turns earlier. Re-grouping, reinforcing, and taking Trondheim was tricky, but fun!
Just something to chew on while you guys wait for me to play my turns. It sounds like we have a consensus on "Green" as a good next city site. I doubt I'll get more than 1 settler out, because I plan to let Berlin grow a bit. I'll probably invest a few worker moves around Leipzig so it can produce more workers... we are going to need a LOT of worker moves to develop our core...
