Better Piety?

This would not be such a serious problem if going piety was as good as Tradicion/Liberty, and if piety actually gave you fast religion. But Piety isnt fast way to religion.
Having UA/UB perk, or Liberty finisher, or Stonehage, or mix of ICS and luck with pantheon is the way to go. Since prophet from Piety comes so late, and tree itself dont grant culture it is inferior.

Yep. Although it's not so bad if you have a culture pantheon. The inherent faith boost from the tree kind of makes up for any lost speed in founding a religion. Obviously, culture/faith pantheons would be ideal, but those are really situational.

I also find the prophet finisher really awkward. I've tried Piety a bunch of times, and the best I can say for that last prophet is that he's a free Enhancer if you'd rather spend your early faith on missionaries, Pagodas, etc. and you don't care what beliefs are left when you get him--this can actually be quite strong, because if you want to spread your religion you'll have a huge head start, or you can boom your faith/culture income earlier with religious buildings (which has the added benefit of popping your borders, since there's less culture from normal buildings now). If you do care about your last beliefs, it's always going to be faster to hit 300 faith, and then the final prophet is basically just a holy site or a little extra spread, which isn't a very good use of the finisher.

Also, holy sites are not good tiles to work even with all the bonuses from the tree unless it's very late in the game or you're going for a tourism win. Early on, food and hammers are way more important.

I do kind of like Liberty (Collective Rule) / Piety if you have a good pantheon and aren't too particular about what Reformation belief you get. But then, there aren't very many good Reformations. Still, Piety in the Ancient era is a good change, and I'm sure the fall patch can whip it into shape a bit. An earlier prophet might be all the tree really needs.
 
The question is if someone going Tradicion will really not be able to pick some trait giving decent amount of culture or at least something not bad. Even as 5th pick... initiacion rites + swords into plowshares + religious community is fine, and after while we accept any religion spread, or if cultured religious art and divine inspiracion (at least your capital should stay faithfull). Not to mention that Liberty/Tradicion have decent chance to get one of buildings.

Not generating culture early on can be overcome by late planting some holy sites, but the problem for me is that Piety is not the fast way to religion while it should be, and policies are ok at best, with meh tolerance in middle. Its like liberty not giving expansion advantage, or tradicion not giving tall boost. And core of problem is that still it better to accumalte raw faith points for Great Prophet than finish Piety, GP from piety is more for enchance or planting.
Simply Prophet should be 4th policy in tree, so you can get it around 70th turn.

As for tolerance, i think it is safe to say that it is crap, and nobody will notice if it disapear.
So lets do so.
Change list:
1. Tolerance is moved to opener, and change "When your city is converted you keep your pantheon belief". Which will be decent, since opener is decent now, and with this addition there will be a option of not founding religion yourself, and just dipping into Piety to keep your local bonus.
2. Religious center lose Holy Site part (which is moved to finisher). But add "Temples gives 2:c5science:" (which makes sense, since Priest ware intelectual elite for a while).
3. In place of Tolerance there will be free prophet (maybe with extra preq of mandate fo heaven).
4. Finisher would be +3:c5gold: and +3:c5culture: for holy sites. Which maybe is not a killer toper, but that would be a addition to everything else.
5. And of course Organized Religion grants +2:c5faith: for Temples.

So result would be:
- No religious players could always dip into Piety for something nice. (at least as good as Consulates or Rationalism)
- Dipping 3policies deep (religious center) would also be option, faith + gold + science.
- Religious players can go for fast Prophet into Piety, while spending faith for units/buildings.
- Tall or wide, dosnt matter. Both good.
- Piety pace will be different, but compleating Piety instead of Liberty/Tradicion will not put you into big disadvantage.

Now i just need to chow xml files at least to do so for personal use. :)
 
Like I said, I have issues with certain pantheons and natural wonders completely dominating the early religion game. Not that I suggest it, but imagine if there were zero faith naturals or pantheons. The double faith on shrines/temples would actually be significant and a free prophet, even a late one, would be a huge boost.

I suspect the devs wanted to have a heavy random element to Religion, which is fine, but not sure it should totally outshine strategies that completely focus on Religion.
 
+1 vote for changing religious tolerance. It's a wasted pick unless the stars align perfectly. Otherwise the tree is not bad.
 
I was toying a little with XML files. It was fun.
What i did:
- Organized religion gives 2:c5faith: from temples
- Theocracy does not affect Holy Sites, but Temples gives also 2 :c5science:
- Both Holy Sites are moved to finisher.
- Tolerance requires both Organized and Mandate, but also spawns free prophets.
- Reformation requires just Tolerane.

Results:
+ went pure Piety, and pick Ancesors and still got Religion from culture alone before T70.
+ since prophet was given from culture i used faith for buying pagodas and so help with early happiness/culture.
+ It takes a while before Theocracy pays off 10%>2:c5gold: but early :c5science: definetly helps.
+ It is long story before i can dream on planing any prophet into holy site.
- It takes much longer to discover Philosophy, so very tall aproach with Temple is still less viable.
 
I find that the tree has become a lot more useful, personally, so much so that I will often prioritize it over Liberty/Tradition, however I find when I get to religious tolerance I'll often get distracted, which hurts a lot more because of how it is somewhat of a race to the good reformation beliefs. I feel moving the finisher to that spot would make the tree significantly more attractive, as would switching Mandate of Heaven with Religious Centres, as MoH just doesn't become useful until you pop a prophet, which, if you rush piety, doesn't see any benefits until much later. Religious Tolerance could easily be moved to the finisher, with the free prophet taking its place, but it'd be nice to see extra benefits attached to investing all 6 policies into the tree; a static +1 culture per shrine / temple would be great for making a pivot to another policy tree, though adding science benefits to temples is also a very attractive option (perhaps too attractive, if you were the Maya with Messenger of the Gods, that's a cool +6 to science per city with a pyramid and temple.) I do like the tree as it is, though, and don't find it underpowered, its more just awkward in its timing, which makes it attractive to mix with liberty and tradition.
 
Like others I mostly dislike the policy that allows you to use the secondary effects of the second most popular religion. The goal in religious games is typically to eradicate other religions, so allowing them into your cities for this just doesn't feel right to me.

I'd actually reverse it: +2 science when your religion is the dominant influence in a city, +3 science if it is the only religious influence in the city.
 
Is it just me that finds this suggestion slightly ironic?

You mean like rainy day on your wedding day or what?
For a while priest of various types was a educated one, just so they can read holy text, monasteries deserve recognicion of coppying books, even antic one, or spreading some technology in herbalism or breawing.
 
You mean like rainy day on your wedding day or what?
For a while priest of various types was a educated one, just so they can read holy text, monasteries deserve recognicion of coppying books, even antic one, or spreading some technology in herbalism or breawing.
While that's true, I was alluding more to the state of modern theocracies across the world of today. Remember, policies are active from the time they are chosen until the end of the game in (possibly) 2050. But you did remind me that perhaps the Monasteries need a :c5science: bonus of some sort.
 
Was going to make a topic about the Piety tree, but instead I will just post it in here.

Since you can now pick Piety in the Ancient era now. Suppose you take the Piety opener as your first policy. Build a shrine. Take the Organized Religion policy next to double your :c5faith: from your shrine.

Now, in the early game, the rest of the policies in the Piety tree are useless until you establish your religion and have access to temples, a secondary religion in your city, and perhaps even until you enhance the religion. After getting the opener and organized religion, I usually branch into another tree and finish Piety a little later when it's more practical.

Is that a wise thing to do? Or is it better just to finish the Piety tree asap to get a better reformation option or whatever?
 
I don't like large sweeping changes. I prefer just small modifications to what is there. I think your changes would just redo to much of the tree and the +2 science would feel weird in that place.

I'd add +1 culture to religion buildings to the opener so it isn't the only opener lacking culture. I don't think the option to add a culture religion counts as culture for piety because anyone can take a culture giving religion if they want.

Then I would add a great prophet to religious tolerance. That's 2 GP total 1 to create a religion and 1 to enhance.

Nothing gutted or just drastically redone only minor changes.
 
Now, in the early game, the rest of the policies in the Piety tree are useless until you establish your religion and have access to temples, a secondary religion in your city, and perhaps even until you enhance the religion. After getting the opener and organized religion, I usually branch into another tree and finish Piety a little later when it's more practical.

Is that a wise thing to do? Or is it better just to finish the Piety tree asap to get a better reformation option or whatever?

Religion is problematic since that is two race, one to founding religion, and second for reformation, and they do are not connected together too much.

As for some fast ways to start religion:
1. Tradicion+Aristocracy+Stonehage(chopchop)...Piety.
2. Liberty+Republic+Collective rule...Piety (and kind of city spam)
3. LIberty to the end and pick Great Prophet as free GP.
4. Piety to the end and either Stonehage or Oracle.

Generally if you step into Piety and want this Reformacion then rush it (postpone Theocracy) since there is always a possibility that someone will steal it. However if you are fine with at least 3 of them, and there is not too many civs on map, then maybe...

I don't like large sweeping changes. I prefer just small modifications to what is there. I think your changes would just redo to much of the tree and the +2 science would feel weird in that place.

I'd add +1 culture to religion buildings to the opener so it isn't the only opener lacking culture. I don't think the option to add a culture religion counts as culture for piety because anyone can take a culture giving religion if they want.

Then I would add a great prophet to religious tolerance. That's 2 GP total 1 to create a religion and 1 to enhance.

Nothing gutted or just drastically redone only minor changes.

What i add is: +1:c5faith: and +2:c5science: from Temples. The reason for this is that otherwise it is supperior to spam shrines.
Everything else already was there, and i just organized it better, so it kick in when it matters.

Second GP is bad idea, since it neglects needs to collect faith points at all, or HS, or civs perks.
Opener lacking culture is not so horrible if culture is not something you need in large amount.
And at least with my tree culture Pantheon is what makes difference betwean Piety and no Piety religion.
 
The trouble with piety is it's a gamble and, as many people here note, not a very sensible one because a) the culture yield is tenuous and b) religious tolerance is underpowered. Tradition and liberty have more tangible, shorter-term bonuses.

I'd suggest that the piety opener should give shrines, temples, and special religious buildings (pagoda etc.) +1 culture, so that a religion-focused civ could, in time, surpass the cultural benefits of liberty and tradition. Re: religious tolerance, I'd replace pantheon beliefs with follower beliefs and include not just the second most populous religion but all of them with followers in the city. That way, it would still be a high-risk strategy, but with a high payoff to match.
 
Second GP is bad idea, since it neglects needs to collect faith points at all, or HS, or civs perks.

I completely disagree. I still have a need for faith after I get my religion. Missionaries, great people, religion buildings, units with faith, and inquisitors. Even planting great prophets for culture/gold can be extremely helpful.

I think if I'm going to give up the sure thing benefits of tradition or liberty I should get some sure thing benefits to piety instead of a gamble based on what was already taken.

Give it both the GPs and let the faith go to other religious purchases instead and then tree will feel like it actually is the king of religion similar to how tradition is the king of tall and liberty is the king of early expansion.

Opener lacking culture is not so horrible if culture is not something you need in large amount.
Are we playing the same game? When do you not need a large amount of culture?

My issue wasn't with your changes specifically as much as with the idea of changing almost everything in the tree. Large sweeping changes often need more large sweeping fixes themselves then small changes would. 95% of the time it's better to just modify what is there instead of gut and redo and avoid a cycle of messes.
 
Someone might have said this already, but the bonus that gives you access to the second most popular Pantheon would be better if it just let you select a second Pantheon belief, with no restrictions on what other people already picked. You just couldn't pick the same one twice. It would be powerful, but considering how religion works in this game and the fact that other players can counter it by spreading their own religion, I think it's fine. Plus the bonus would be shared with anyone who adopts your religion so the potential for backfire is always there.
 
Someone might have said this already, but the bonus that gives you access to the second most popular Pantheon would be better if it just let you select a second Pantheon belief, with no restrictions on what other people already picked. You just couldn't pick the same one twice. It would be powerful, but considering how religion works in this game and the fact that other players can counter it by spreading their own religion, I think it's fine. Plus the bonus would be shared with anyone who adopts your religion so the potential for backfire is always there.

The problem is that number of pantheon beliefs is very limited, while number of players going piety is less limited. And you can run out of pantheons avaiable. :-(

What i did is to move it to opener. So it still sucks, but is addition to well timed construction bonus. Also, laiter in the game if you know what will be you second pantheon you can dip just one Piety to get the bonus.

There are probably better options, however that would be harder to mod.
 
I think if Religious Tolerance got some of kind of small culture bonus (I'm thinking something similar in impact to Honor's Military Caste) that would be enough to make it worthwhile and help to make Piety feel a little more cohesive as an opening tree.
 
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