Civilization elimination thread

America 21
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 19
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 16
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 21
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 8
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 20
Maya 22
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 18
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 21
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

Persia's a beast! A top tier UA, a top tier UU (since the G&K buff to the spear/pike units), and a great UB too! Very strong civ, and the movement bonus makes warring really fun too.

Babylon - Severely nerfed by G&K changes to GS's, UB is weak and the window for using the UU now very small. Why would anyone pick Babylon ahead of Korea now?

America 21
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 19
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 16
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 21
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 6
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 20
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 18
Ottoman Empire 18
Persia 21
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

India: Happiness is no longer a problem in G&K especially for tall empires.
Maya: Pyramids are great for early tech and faith boost and there UA comes in hand for rushing wonders and quickly enhancing religion

America 19
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 19
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 16
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 21
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 6
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 20
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 18
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 21
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21


America: I find the UA lackluster and the B17 comes too late. Kind of like the minuteman, though.

Ottomans: LOVE naval warfare, janissaries rule, sipahis are great for hit and run attacks. Ever had the biggest fleet of other civs ship-UUs ever? So, now you can. I once got 5 q-remes from Carthage with this marvelous UA, used it to steamroll the whole archipellago. I'd have voted for Sweden, Spain, Byzantium, Netherlands and Carthage if I could

Missed out on voting in the wonder thread today. The Oracle won...so strange.

America 19
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 19
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 14
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 21
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 6
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 20
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 19
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 21
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

Many say the Dutch UA is weak, but I love trading in my games and keeping long lasting friendships. Polders are great!

Denmark took a huge hit with G&K. Berserkers don't stick around long and amphibious assaults are not as important anymore with the inclusion of melee ships.

Petiscator said:

America 19
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 19
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 16
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 21
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 6
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 20
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 17 (-2)
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 22 (+1)
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

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Persia: Has an amazing UA, and with some wonders and happiness (which, funny enuff, their UB provides) you can cruise golden for a very long time.

Netherlands: Never seen much prospect in this, bad UA, rotten UU, only their special improvement is worth any consideration at all. Plus William dresses like a pansy.

America 19
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 19
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 14
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 21
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 6
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 20
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 22
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

America 19
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 19
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 14
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 21 + 1 = 22
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 6 - 2 = 4
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 20
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 22
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

I find no redeeming value playing as or against India.

Greece is a great, challenging civ to be spawned next to at higher levels. The only civ that had ever humiliated me.

America 21
Arabia 20
Austria 14
Aztec 23
America 19
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 19
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 14
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 22
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 2
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 20
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 22
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

India: Sorry but India isn't that great and def. not suited for my playstyle.
Austria: Can't unterstand the votes. Austria is just so strong and i think, most player just don't like Maria Theresia. I really hope they finish a little bit higher then place 23. They are too strong to be downvoted that hard.

Kurtbob said:

Denmark took a huge hit with G&K. Berserkers don't stick around long and amphibious assaults are not as important anymore with the inclusion of melee ships.

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Not an unfair assessment, but Denmark has one thing going for it (aside from AI Harald being great fun) - they feel like Vikings. Sure, as someone earlier pointed out, landing, pillaging and jumping back in the sea isn't a particularly game-winning strategy, but it's exactly the strategy they should be using.

Also, don't underestimate them even now. With the extra movement from being embarked, combined with the no-cost-to-disembark rule, Danish units are very quick when they land. Melee ships don't become particularly powerful against cities until Steam Power (unless you're Korean), but often more importantly you can land and attack with strong siege engines long before you'll have Frigates. Musketmen aren't a lot stronger than Berserkers, and the extra movement (which isn't kept with promotions) can be worth holding off upgrading for a while. I've turned games around with Denmark just by launching a swift attack that captures one key city.

Babylon - Severely nerfed by G&K changes to GS's, UB is weak and the window for using the UU now very small. Why would anyone pick Babylon ahead of Korea now?

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So it's at best 2nd place rather than 1st? Is that really a reason to downvote it at this stage? GS 'nerfs' affect everyone; relatively speaking Babylon's UA is nearly as strong as ever since Great Scientists are still very valuable. The downside is that, unlike Korea or the Maya, Babylon provides nothing that actually increases beaker production - and since GS effects are now linked to bpt, a Babylonian Great Scientist is going to be weaker than a Korean or Mayan ones.

Austria: Can't unterstand the votes. Austria is just so strong and i think, most player just don't like Maria Theresia. I really hope they finish a little bit higher then place 23. They are too strong to be downvoted that hard.

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I haven't had a problem with Austria. For some reason, in my games even when she has CS allies and plenty of gold Maria Theresa doesn't ally them very often - and when she does she doesn't seem to make much use of that advantage, or suffers from losing a cultural lead or whatever. And she generally ends up as a reliable ally. Only played a partial game with Austria - didn't find it interesting, but that's true of a lot of civs.

PhilBowles said:

Not an unfair assessment, but Denmark has one thing going for it (aside from AI Harald being great fun) - they feel like Vikings. Sure, as someone earlier pointed out, landing, pillaging and jumping back in the sea isn't a particularly game-winning strategy, but it's exactly the strategy they should be using.

Also, don't underestimate them even now. With the extra movement from being embarked, combined with the no-cost-to-disembark rule, Danish units are very quick when they land. Melee ships don't become particularly powerful against cities until Steam Power (unless you're Korean), but often more importantly you can land and attack with strong siege engines long before you'll have Frigates. Musketmen aren't a lot stronger than Berserkers, and the extra movement (which isn't kept with promotions) can be worth holding off upgrading for a while. I've turned games around with Denmark just by launching a swift attack that captures one key city.

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You have some pretty valid points and I agree with them. Holding off on upgrading is definetly a worth while strategy and I don't underestimate the Danes. Honeslty, a good argument could be made for almost every civ why they are good, so so, or terrible. I think these elemination threads really just come down to personal preference. Perhaps I just haven't played the Danes enough to appreciate them.

America 21
Arabia 20
Austria 14
Aztec 23
America 19
Arabia 20
Austria 12
Aztec 23
Babylon 20
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 14
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 22
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 2
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 18
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 22
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

Babalon's science bonus is soooooo good, the 8 extra science that early is amazing! Plus the extra health from walls makes your cities really strong the whole game. By FAR the best civ in the game! You will be poping great scientists left and right!

Korea is meh. It's not the worst here, but for a science civ, i find them very underwhelming at getting tons of science. Plus the turtle ship is a negative as i play pangaea and continents, and it prevents you from scouting the world earlier. overall they are really just very disappointing.

Kurtbob said:

You have some pretty valid points and I agree with them. Holding off on upgrading is definetly a worth while strategy and I don't underestimate the Danes. Honeslty, a good argument could be made for almost every civ why they are good, so so, or terrible. I think these elemination threads really just come down to personal preference. Perhaps I just haven't played the Danes enough to appreciate them.

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I think there's also a perception that they're weak because - for reasons that appear to have nothing to do with the Danish UA and more to do with the AI personality - Harald is almost universally reported as doing very badly as an AI civ. My own feeling is that at this stage at least there are simply far more anonymous civs that can be dropped - as someone said, what does "Population Growth" reflect about India? Since when is India a country characterised by a small number of cities? Denmark has character, and for that alone I'd keep them around at least for a while, even though they don't deserve to make the finals, as it were.

Korea is meh. It's not the worst here, but for a science civ, i find them very underwhelming at getting tons of science. Plus the turtle ship is a negative as i play pangaea and continents

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You really need to learn to play Korea to best effect, I think. The Turtle Ship is now phenomenal, especially on continent maps (and even pangeas) where you will usually have other civs with accessible coastal cities on your continent. You get hampered exploration - but in exchange you have a melee ship that can capture contemporary cities, including capitals, with ease, having 11 strength more than the Privateer long before even that unit comes on the scene (by which time cities are strong enough to withstand it). It is true that Korea has nothing quite as early as Babylon's or the Maya's first GS, as the library beaker boost doesn't compare, but you only need a few amphitheaters to exceed the 8 bpt Babylon will be getting, and after that Korea produces science more quickly and reliably - Babylon gives you nothing else until Education, and works slowly from then on. By the late game I'm popping Great Scientists every 5 turns or so anyway, and as Korea or the Maya I generally have more beakers to improve their effect.

pensivepeppers said:

Netherlands: Never seen much prospect in this, bad UA, rotten UU, only their special improvement is worth any consideration at all. Plus William dresses like a pansy.

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Wow, really? I pretty much disagree with most of this statement. William's pants are incredibly awesome! But, ignoring the fashion side of things, the UA is actually very powerful, as in the early game you can afford to sell more of your luxuries for less of a risk. Whether you are going tall or wide, the income will get your 4 tradition cities or however many 6+ liberty cities up much faster with less concern for happiness.

Plus, with protectionism from the commerce tree, trading away your last luxury maintains +3 happiness. You can maintain high happiness numbers, get lots of income from AI trades, and INCREASE your happiness by trading your last luxury for one you don't have.

As for the Sea Beggar, I don't know. I've never played with the Dutch on a water start, so I can't comment. The polder, though, is so powerful, if you can get just a few up and running. It provides +5 food, if I recall, and extra gold with economics, and if you get them on floodplains with the additional river gold, then that is just amazing. The population growth there is incredible. As an additional note, if you can get a Dutch desert/floodplains start, build Petra, and get a bunch of polders up, then you will have a very powerful city.

meteo63 said:

Wow, really? I pretty much disagree with most of this statement. William's pants are incredibly awesome! But, ignoring the fashion side of things, the UA is actually very powerful, as in the early game you can afford to sell more of your luxuries for less of a risk. Whether you are going tall or wide, the income will get your 4 tradition cities or however many 6+ liberty cities up much faster with less concern for happiness.

Plus, with protectionism from the commerce tree, trading away your last luxury maintains +3 happiness. You can maintain high happiness numbers, get lots of income from AI trades, and INCREASE your happiness by trading your last luxury for one you don't have.

As for the Sea Beggar, I don't know. I've never played with the Dutch on a water start, so I can't comment. The polder, though, is so powerful, if you can get just a few up and running. It provides +5 food, if I recall, and extra gold with economics, and if you get them on floodplains with the additional river gold, then that is just amazing. The population growth there is incredible. As an additional note, if you can get a Dutch desert/floodplains start, build Petra, and get a bunch of polders up, then you will have a very powerful city.

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I love playing the Dutch and I agree with everything you stated above. I played them in my last game and I had a nice Flood Plains start so I built Petra. I finished the game with a population of 52 in my capital thanks to eight polders and petra farms. If I were at home I would upload a pic. I used Sea Beggars in my first game of G&K and they had every promotion available to them by the time I upgraded them to Destroyers. I found them very powerful when matched with XP buildings (starting with three or four promotions is great) and some frigates.

emblemfire said:

Korea is meh. It's not the worst here, but for a science civ, i find them very underwhelming at getting tons of science. Plus the turtle ship is a negative as i play pangaea and continents, and it prevents you from scouting the world earlier. overall they are really just very disappointing.

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I disagree. While Babylon does get a GS incredibly quick, I found in my last game as Korea no one could even stay in the same era as me until the very end. Settling GS' early nets base of +12 science a turn before modifications by wonders/policies/etc at Scientific Theory and +14 at Atomic Theory. I had about 6 of them planted around my science city and by the modern era that city alone was putting out ~150 tech per turn, couple with the fact that any GPerson you plant nets +2 science, they can't be beat.

The key with H'wacha is to upgrade cats. I'm not sure if it's an exploit that will be patched, but the +200% against cities carries over to the H'wacha when you upgrade, meaning you get 26+200% against cities, much more powerful than even cannons and easily dropping a 10 pop city in one turn. Plus they're pretty good anti-personal until Gunpowder.

Turtle Ships are great at taking cities, with nothing really challenging them until Frigates.

It's definitely a bug/oversight that will be fixed. H'wacha have such a high ranged strength specifically because they are meant to be effective against troops; keeping the city attack bonus should not be carrying over.

America 19
Arabia 20
Austria 14
Aztec 23
Babylon 20
Byzantium 23
Carthage 22
Celts 20
China 22
Denmark 14
Egypt 17
England 20
Ethiopia 22
France 20
Germany 16
Greece 22
Huns 20
Inca 21
India 0 -2
Iroquois 20
Japan 21
Korea 18
Maya 23
Mongolia 20
The Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 19
Persia 23 +1
Polynesia 15
Roman Empire 19
Russia 20
Siam 19
Songhai 20
Spain 16
Sweden 21

I love Persia. And in G&K, wow. I currently am loving the culture change to GA's, and it makes Darius so sick. Petra in Persepolis in a big fat desert with a bunch of hills is kicking. Wide and proud making all of the other AI's very mad. Spread the desert Folklore, a bit of Thithe in all cites, a bang of 20% combat bonus against foreign cities with my religion, with a GA, Immortal rush, errr. 10 b.c and I'm ahead in research, 42 Happiness, and 210 GPT. So fun.

India, so not the same thing at all. The UA seems very weak, UB, UU, .

I think someone made a mistake there are 2 Americas, Arabia,Austria, and Aztec.

nefloyd said:

It's definitely a bug/oversight that will be fixed. H'wacha have such a high ranged strength specifically because they are meant to be effective against troops; keeping the city attack bonus should not be carrying over.

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I'm sure this is the case. That will really be unfortunate when they patch it because they are outstanding as they are. Personally I think it should stand as I like thinking they carried their experience over from assaulting cities as cats. Granted it's far easier to amass cats now since they don't require iron, so I can see how OP this would be.

Awsome Sause said:

I think someone made a mistake there are 2 Americas, Arabia,Austria, and Aztec.

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yeah, it goes back to Anvari. must have been a weird copy/paste.