[Speculation] Indonesia/Majapahit/Srivijaya

seancolorado said:

They were the civilization to "end" Kublai Khan's reign of power, that's no small feat would be about.

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At that time Kublai Khan's doesn't have enough knowledge in naval warfare, so got beaten up pretty bad anyway Mongol's only superior in lands.

Naaaaaaaah.... I would like the trade focus as a UA actually, like:
Trade Archipelago: x3 multiplifier for naval traderoutes or Half amount of gold for IT you get as faith.

Well, Majapahit was mostly comprised of tributaries kept in line by the Majapahit army. I don't think they were really all that commercial. More takers than traders.

But, if we're going to have Brazil be the quintessential great artist civilization, then we can certainly take liberties with Majapahit.

steveg700 said:

Well, Majapahit was mostly comprised of tributaries kept in line by the Majapahit army. I don't think they were really all that commercial. More takers than traders.

But, if we're going to have Brazil be the quintessential great artist civilization, then we can certainly take liberties with Majapahit.

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Yeah, the thing is for the game it doesn't matter what the civs actually did - it matters what people perceive their achievements to be. Take France for example - what makes France more "cultural" than other civs? Nothing. People just think of France as a center of culture, even though plenty of other cultures and civilizations are just as culturally rich. Or, take the Chinese. Why the heck would the Chinese, who had great achievements in areas ranging from science to the bureaucratic meritocracy to other things get stuck with a military UA that could have easily fit any "militaristic" civ ranging from Germany to the Mongols? Because "Art of War" is an iconic piece of Chinese literature. Nothing really much to it.

I too perceive Majapahit/Indonesia to be commercially-focused, only because there was a lot of trade going through that area (remember, this was how much of the stuff from China got to the rest of the world after the collapse of the Silk Road), and not necessarily because of the actual policies of the Majapahit/Indonesia, and I feel it would be appropriate as a nod to the lucrative trade routes that went through Indonesia - trade routes of which played an important role in the development of the global trade networks and colonization and all that.

Hello Clause, nice to see an Indonesian here..
Nice information there.., but I'm tempted to comment on some of your words..

steveg700 said:

Well, Majapahit was mostly comprised of tributaries kept in line by the Majapahit army. I don't think they were really all that commercial. More takers than traders.

But, if we're going to have Brazil be the quintessential great artist civilization, then we can certainly take liberties with Majapahit.

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Technically, they are also a commercial civ.. Malacca strait is a nasty money generator for them.., and they are monopolizing the spice islands..

@Aessa,

You pretty much just nailed it on the head

@cybrxkhan,

That what I keep thinking. We tend to get so caught up in the labeling of civs that we forget the lines between cultured civs and warring civs and trading civs are paper thin

AessaSH said:

Technically, they are also a commercial civ.. Malacca strait is a nasty money generator for them.., and they are monopolizing the spice islands..

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Wasn't that more of a trade route for the East India Company who took control of the area? I mean, Majapahit wasn't sending cargo ships along that route back to Europe.

steveg700 said:

Wasn't that more of a trade route for the East India Company who took control of the area? I mean, Majapahit wasn't sending cargo ships along that route back to Europe.

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The Indian Ocean trade routes preceeded the Europeans who later came to dominate them by almost 2 millennia (it was in fact the Indian Ocean trade that stole much of the Silk Road trade eventually). However, indeed, the Majapahit were not the main ones sending cargo ships (when the Europeans first came there it was mostly Muslim merchants from a wide variety of regions, ranging from the Swahili to the Arabs and Persians to Indians and those from various Indonesian states) - though more so because they didn't too, given that they and other states in the region controlled that area of the trade routes anyways.

AessaSH said:

Technically, they are also a commercial civ.. Malacca strait is a nasty money generator for them.., and they are monopolizing the spice islands..

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Strongly agree with this. Malaca port is likely similar with Alexandria, how important they were in sea trades routes. They earn money from traders in exchange for protection from pirates.

Anyway it seems you researched pretty well on our history, glad to have someone interest on that.

Btw about Kris, yeah it's a weapon in past but in modern day it's more like artifact to display on living room.

In conclusion, i want their UA to be more on open border bonus, meanwhile their UB support religion, as for UU maybe something that could replace trireme.

Right, the selfsame Muslims that eventually brought down Majapahit were the ones who had the biggest hand in trade. Give them the trade-route UA.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Majapahit didn't have maritime trade, just as I'm sure Brazil had their share of great artists. I'm just not getting the sense (yet) that it was so definitive that it should be the basis of their UA. I think an ability that has to do with demanding tribute from CS's hews closer to their core, even if that mechanic is no longer the new kid on the block.

After G&K came out, most ideas for new civ's after that had to do with religion. Why? Because that civilization had religion (as, of course, they pretty much all did), and religion was a shiny new toy everyone wanted to play with. Similar thing here. Every civ has some kind of commerce.

Having said that, I wouldn't really think it that big of a deal if maritime trade bonuses was what they wound up with.

The reason I think a trade-based one is very possible is because Netherlands' UA "Dutch East India Company" had a significant presence in Indonsia. In fact, such a strong presence that their most important connection which allowed the Company to thrive in its prime came from Indonesia. (Furthermore, Dutch impact, although lasting, had a minimal effect on Indonesians whereas Indonesian values significantly altered the way the Dutch proceeded onward)

Of course, this obviously doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it would be a nice closed knot to tie in the loose end of Dutch's UA (sort of like how some are saying Portugal is a given since Brazil is included, except this connection is specifically based on the Dutch UA/potential Indonesian UA)

Btw about Kris, yeah it's a weapon in past but in modern day it's more like artifact to display on living room.

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I don't know enough about Indonesian military history to know if a Kris is the best option for a UU, but as a kris owner myself, I think it would be pretty awesome if they chose the Kris as the UU simply because it represents Indonesia so well:
-it fulfills the UU aspect since it was actually a viable weapon long ago
-it captures the faith and spirituality which indirectly reflects Indonesia's unique syncretism
-one overlooked perk about Indonesia is that they have phenomenal writers and philosophers - the kris is included in many tales and stories which reflects this
-it's a beautiful symbol of culture, particularly Javanese
-It is a weapon that is associated with other SE nations, which is great as an homage to them since not every civ can be included (I'm talking as if Indonesia is a sure-fire inclusion, they are still a darkhorse IMO as much as Vietnam)

Kind of an off-kilter take on Indonesia -

Leader: Gajah Madah/Hayam Wuruk (you could even do both if you wanted - Hayam Wuruk is lounging on his throne in the back with Gajah Madah at the forefront interacting with the player).

EDIT: Or, better yet, Tribhuwana.

Symbol: Kris. Red/White or Red/Gold should really be the colors but they're taken by Austria/Japan and Siam/Persia. Honestly, I'd just change Siam or Persia's colors and give their old ones to Indonesia.

UA: Unity in Diversity
Cities benefit from the pantheon beliefs of all religions in the city. +2 culture for each religion present in a city. Sea trade routes spread religions faster to your cities.

That means if a city has three religions present - one that took Fertility Rites, one that took Messenger of the Gods, and one that took Oral Tradition - that would mean the city gets +10% growth rate, +1 culture on all plantations within the city, and +2 science if connected to the capital with a trade route. Even if a religion only has a single follower within a city, that religion's pantheon belief is applied to the city. That city only gains access to the follower beliefs of the majority religion in the city.

UU: Jong Ship*
A Cargo Ship replacement, the Jong Ship gets +25% gold from sea trade routes and can defend itself, though of course it can't attack.

*because it seems the Cargo Ship will upgrade visually in later eras, perhaps give a more generic name like Spice Ship?

UB: Candi
Temple replacement, grants +1 faith, +2 culture, +2 tourism (that's not in addition to normal Temple bonuses - it's in exchange).

MisterSaturnine said:

Kind of an off-kilter take on Indonesia -

Leader: Gajah Madah/Hayam Wuruk (you could even do both if you wanted - Hayam Wuruk is lounging on his throne in the back with Gajah Madah at the forefront interacting with the player).

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I'm pretty sure Firaxis is going to put a Female Civ leader... It's not like they are going to put 9 heavily bearded male leader for all 9 Civs ....

bob massingbird said:

I'm pretty sure Firaxis is going to put a Female Civ leader... It's not like they are going to put 9 heavily bearded male leader for all 9 Civs ....

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That's a good point. Tribhuwana seems pretty deserving anyhow.

The UA is pretty strong but way too passive and the Jong is weak.

Clause said:

...

Anyway it seems you researched pretty well on our history, glad to have someone interest on that.

Btw about Kris, yeah it's a weapon in past but in modern day it's more like artifact to display on living room.

...

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Hehe.., thanks..
Well.., samurai and their katana are having similiar fate with Indonesian Kris.. But it doesn't stop them to appears in Civ game as the Japan UU..

steveg700 said:

Right, the selfsame Muslims that eventually brought down Majapahit were the ones who had the biggest hand in trade. Give them the trade-route UA.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Majapahit didn't have maritime trade, just as I'm sure Brazil had their share of great artists. I'm just not getting the sense (yet) that it was so definitive that it should be the basis of their UA. I think an ability that has to do with demanding tribute from CS's hews closer to their core, even if that mechanic is no longer the new kid on the block.

After G&K came out, most ideas for new civ's after that had to do with religion. Why? Because that civilization had religion (as, of course, they pretty much all did), and religion was a shiny new toy everyone wanted to play with. Similar thing here. Every civ has some kind of commerce.

Having said that, I wouldn't really think it that big of a deal if maritime trade bonuses was what they wound up with.

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Isn't that already there?? Trade Caravan UA..
I know what do you mean.. My idea of Javanese Majapahit is having an UA based on CS too (Unity in Diversity)..
But because this expansion's theme is mainly about trade route and tourism.., it's understandable if someone or even Firaxis gave the Indonesian civ an UA based on maritime trade route..
And their maritime trade is fairly above standard.. Become a chain link of the busiest world trade route in medieval era is a great accomplishment IMO..

MisterSaturnine said:

...

UA: Unity in Diversity
Cities benefit from the pantheon beliefs of all religions in the city. +2 culture for each religion present in a city. Sea trade routes spread religions faster to your cities.

That means if a city has three religions present - one that took Fertility Rites, one that took Messenger of the Gods, and one that took Oral Tradition - that would mean the city gets +10% growth rate, +1 culture on all plantations within the city, and +2 science if connected to the capital with a trade route. Even if a religion only has a single follower within a city, that religion's pantheon belief is applied to the city. That city only gains access to the follower beliefs of the majority religion in the city.

UU: Jong Ship*
A Cargo Ship replacement, the Jong Ship gets +25% gold from sea trade routes and can defend itself, though of course it can't attack.

*because it seems the Cargo Ship will upgrade visually in later eras, perhaps give a more generic name like Spice Ship?

...

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Silly me.., pausing several seconds because misread the Spice Ship with Space Ship..

Yes indeed.., that UA is overpowered.. Even Byzantium is only have 1 bonus belief..

I will be extremely disappointed if there is not some economic/trade based benefit to playing as this civ. Sri Vijaya was arguably the richest civ in the world at about 900 AD.

A couple of cool ideas

- UA On discovery of optics, gain +2 cargo ships (and therefore sea trade routes). Do not gain any extra sea trade routes until +2 eras after this discovery (aka let everyone else catch up)
- Cargo ship UU that isn't limited by ocean tiles (the way that I expect cargo ships will be in the early game)
- UA or UB where "exotic luxuries" (luxuries the other civ does not have) yield more gold from trade routes

Some of these ideas are great. I really hope an Indonesian Civ is added - they would be an ideal Civ to showcase the new trade route system.

And I think you can give Portugal extra trade routes, Netherlands extra ranged maritime TR's and Majapahit a 3x multiplifier for maritime TR's(As the Spice road was extremly benefitful.)