Liberating

I wanted to compare notes with the board about some of the game's behaviours regarding liberating cities. A couple things:

1) So as we know, warmonger hate is a function of (1/n)*x, where x = a very large number and n = the number of cities the victim has. But it looks like, when you liberate, the warmonger reversal = (1/n)*x, where n = the number of cities the BENEFITTING civ now has. So if Rome has 10 cities, including Salzburg as a puppet, and Austria has 1, and I siege and liberate Salzburg, my warmonger penalty is (1/10)*x, but Austria now has 2 cities making my liberating bonus (1/2)*x. Which means I actually reversed MORE warmonger hate than just that from taking the city. Have others seen similar behaviour?

2) When you revive a civ, it looks like the revived guy does not remember any warmonger hate you accrued while he was dead. For example I liberated Catherine, who detested me before her last city fell to someone else. She was friendly the first turn, but the next turn she was guarded. But I liberate other dead civs, whom I had nothing to do with when they were alive and some of whom I had never even met, and the next turn they DOF me even though I have been a terdball all game. Do others see the same thing?

#1 Appears consistent with my experience.
Even better is to liberate a previously conquered city state after conquering one of many cities that AI has.

I've never brought back a major AI from the dead so I can't comment on #2.

Wait, so conquering a city gives you warmonger hate even if you liberate it?

Yes, but the liberating bonus cancels it out. And if you get it in a peace deal (and liberate it), you get the bonus without the penalty.

What I'm observing is that the bonus can exceed the penalty. Or at least so it seems.

Diplomacy modifiers are never forgotten, they only decay. Recalling a civ to life gives the 'you recalled them to life..' diplo modifier which is equal to 150. That is more than enough to cancel out most warmongering hate. When I say 'cancel' I mean that it is enough to possibly make that civ friendly in which case they will hide most of their negative modifiers from you.

Seems about right. I dont know about the precise math.

I have also liberated previously unknown AI, only to have them guarded towards me.
More often then not, they will DoF you within a turn or two, but sometimes they wont. Sometimes they go directly to coveting your lands, even though you brought them back to life.

it all depends on the balance of diplo modifiers.

One thing is for certain:
Reviving a player from dead and placing a diplomat in their capitol is a very good way to get a vote for world leader and win Diplo. I have done this a couple of times and those extra votes can allow for a fast DipV. I dont think its an iron clad strategy or anything, but revival is a big green +.

My experience with liberating is that it seems civs brought back to life only remember what they experienced while alive. While they were dead, it was as if they were not observing anything.

I once liberated Siam, who denounced me almost immediately. Of course, it was I who dealt the first blow that led the cultures in to eat up the scraps of his civilization. He disliked me for warmongering and having his original capital.

However, I seem to remember once bringing back the Celts from a second city while holding their capital which I got from a third party. She didn't seem to mind that I had occupied her capital, and in spite of being a jerk all game, she was ok with me.

The fact you bring someone back from the dead is such a massive positive modifier that they, indeed, will rarely be unhappy with you again, but if you burn down half the world, demand things from them, denounce them, backstab friends, lie about moving your army, etc., they can still hate you.

On another note, I'm not sure you get a liberation bonus for conquering the same city in succession. I just liberated a Mongolian city every turn for something like 5 straight turns and some people still didn't like my warmongering (and I hadn't been a huge warmonger at that point, had only taken 3 cities of Polynesia's 9).

All of this is anecdotal, though. I haven't done any testing, and my memory may be a little off.

joncnunn said:

I've never brought back a major AI from the dead so I can't comment on #2.

Click to expand...

I don't mean to derail the thread, but...

Really?!?

It could happen. You could be a peacenik or your diplomacy could always be befriend-the-strong, pick-on-the-weak. Which is the point of my other thread: maybe there's a better way.