[Religion and Revolution]: Further Native Nations

raystuttgart

Civ4Col Modder
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Hi everybody, :wavey:

We would like to add further Native Nations to TAC in Religion and Revolution.
(I will make a complete list of Native Nations in TAC tonight and post it here. :thumbsup:)

Again, I want to stay authentic and historicaly correct in general.
(No absolute fantasy civs ...)

To do so, we will need several things:

Graphics:

  • 3D Leaderhead
  • UnitArtStyles
  • CitySets
  • Buttons
  • Teamcolors

Historical Data / XML:

  • Background Information / Texts
  • Balancing of Leaderhead
  • Names for Great Generals / Great Warriors
  • Names for Native Villages

There is a lot already done in other mods, that we might use.

We would of course appreciate any help collecting / creating graphics and getting the historical data. :goodjob:
I will keep an index of all suggestions in this post.

We are looking forward to your suggestions. :)
 
Ok, here is the list of Native Nations already included in TAC and thus also included in Religion and Revolution.
  • Tupi
  • Arawak
  • Aztec
  • Inca
  • Apache
  • Sioux
  • Cherokee
  • Iroquois
  • Maya
  • Tehuelche
  • Shuar
-----------
11

The further Native Civs I would like to add:

  • Inuit -> One really up in the north is missing currenty and everybody knows the Inuit.
  • Hurons -> Robert and I talked about them already.
  • Zapotec -> Already existing in AOD II and I would like to have one more in Central America.
  • Guarani -> Also already existing in AOD II.
-----------
4

-----------

In Total: 15


I suggested already to Robert to finish a feature I had started a long time ago:
"Geographicaly Correct Placement of Natives"

With this feature I would divide the map in 3 Regions:

  • Northern America
  • Central America
  • Southern America

I would like to put one third of the Native Nations in each region.
So if we stay with 15 Native Nations, it would be 5 each.
(If we go up to 18 Native Nations, it would be 6 each, but I think for a Start, we could stay with adding 4 new Native Nations. ;) )
 
Other Natives Nations, that have been talked about:
(There are definitely more but these are the ones I remember currently. :) )

  • Commanches
  • Cheyenne
  • Alonquin
  • Haida
 
Interesting!

There seems to be more northern American natives in Vanilla Civ4Col and in TAC if I'm correct ... I would also like to have the same number of natives of each kind.
About the historical data, we will probably need some help. Colonialfan may probably know more than us. And I will contact again Vimaire33, on Civfr.com...
He lives in Quebec and really wanted to add Huron nation.

About the graphical part, I don't know what to do. I've seen a few graphical files in the links I posted a few days ago...
(here: Graphics)
 
There seems to be more northern American natives in Vanilla Civ4Col and in TAC if I'm correct ...

No, it is quite the contrary in TAC. :)
(In TAC the nations are a little more south balanced.)


North: 4

Apache
Sioux
Cherokee
Iroquois

Central: 2

Aztec
Maya

South: 5

Arawak
Tupi
Inca
Tehuelche
Shuar (new with TAC 2.02c, when it is out)


About the historical data, we will probably need some help. Colonialfan may probably know more than us. And I will contact again Vimaire33, on Civfr.com...

Good idea. :thumbsup:

About the graphical part, I don't know what to do. I've seen a few graphical files in the links I posted a few days ago...
(here: Graphics)

Adding these new Native Nations will take a while. :)
We simply start working on them one after each other.
(Release by Release we continue adding ...)

We will find graphcis or people that will help us with graphics. :thumbsup:
 
So ok, here is my new suggestion.

I will try to explain with 10 zones of placement.
1 (deep south) to 10 (high north).


North: 6 Nations
(Placed in zone 7 to 10)

Apache
Sioux
Cherokee
Iroquois
Inuit
Hurons

Central: 3 Nations
(Placed in zone 5 to 6)

Aztec
Maya
Zapotec

South: 6 Nations
(Placed in zone 1 to 4)

Arawak
Tupi
Inca
Tehuelche
Shuar (new with TAC 2.02c, when it is out)
Guarani

--------------------

By doing so, we should get a pretty balanced placement in the end, after we have added these 4 Native Nations:
  • Inuit
  • Hurons
  • Zapotec
  • Guarani

Actually I think that we should have enough Native Nations then. :)
(Adding these 4 will already be quite some work.)
 
Good news:

In KJ's 1492 Global Colonization I have found the Native Civ Inuit.
(I knew I had seen them in another mod ! :) )

So basically we would have Leaderhead-Graphic (I think it is one of Ekmek's Leaderheads) and City-Names for that Native Civ now.

Also there is Native Civ Toltec in there, which could eventually be used for Zapotec or Guarani.
(Toltec is a little to mythical for my taste.)
 
A leaderhead of Westward Ho, which might be used one day ...
 

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I really like the new civs of AoDII, the Zapotec, Guarani and Toltec (though the last one is an anachronism, and probably should be left out).

Agnat said, that there were Zapotec and Guarani in AOD II.

However, I have checked AOD II and also Age of Further Discovery and cannot find them in there. :(
 
Agnat said, that there were Zapotec and Guarani in AOD II.

However, I have checked AOD II and also Age of Further Discovery and cannot find them in there. :(

It should be in there. Where did you look? In the case of my version of AoFD (which I downloaded from this site), you should look under AgeOfDiscoveryII/Assets/Modules/AoFDMod, there you can find city lists, leaderheads etc.
 
It should be in there. Where did you look? In the case of my version of AoFD (which I downloaded from this site), you should look under AgeOfDiscoveryII/Assets/Modules/AoFDMod, there you can find city lists, leaderheads etc.

Hi agnat86,

Sorry to not reply earlier, but I had been gone for a few days. :)

In my version of AoDII, there is no folder "Modules" in Assets.
(I have the newest version I could find.)

Also looked in AgeOfFurtherDiscovery.

Could you please zip the version you have, upload it somewhere and send me a download link in a private message ?
Thanks. :thumbsup:
 
Hi everybody,

yesterday I have checked more than 30 leaderheads to find appropriate ones for our new native nations. :)

Here a screenshot from the leaderhead I would like to use for Inuit.
(His name is not Orkeke, I simply replaced an existing leader to test some leaderheads)

Spoiler :


 
And here the leaderhead for the Guarani.
Spoiler :




And here the leaderhead for the Zapotec.
Spoiler :




Guarani and Zapotec are pretty much ready to use for us already in AODII !
Thanks to agnat86 for the great hint ! :)
 

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@colonialfan:

Could you start collecting some data for Leadername, CityNames, Great Warriors and off course also for the texts in Colopedia for Inuit ?
 
Hi guys,

I've been doing a little research around native civs, and the additional native civs we are talking about adding to the game. From an ethnograpical point of view there are 15different cultural areas in the america's, 10 in North America, (Artic/Subartic/Northeast/Southeast/Plains/Great Basin/Plateau/Southwest/Northwest/California) 2 in Central America/Caribbean, (Mesoamerica/Caribbean) and 3 in South America, (Andean/Amazonian/Cono-Southern). I will address all 3 areas with possible suggestions that would maintain an air of historical accuracy but also I hope improve gameplay.

South America

We currently have the Inca, Tupi, Shuar & Tehuelche and are considering adding the Guarani. I think 5 tribes in South America is sufficient, however I would suggest the following changes:

1. Change Shuar to Jivaro.
The Shuar are one of 4 tribes that make up the Jivaro. Also the Shuar are a rather small tribe located in a rather specific area. If they were renamed the Jivaro, then they could firstly, be more numerous and secondly cover a much wider area.

2. Change the Tehuelche to Mapuche. Very much for the same reasons we want to change the Shuar to Jivaro.

Leaderheads, buttons, etc would not be a problem as none of that would have to change, the leaders would stay the same. All that would have to change is the historical biographies, add more names of villages, great generals etc., which I could provide.

Central America/Caribbean

We currently have the Aztec & Maya in Central America and the Arawak in the Caribbean. We are thinking of adding the Zapoltec to Central America. The only change I can think of is:

1. Add the Caribs to the Caribbean. The area was named afterall for them, and it might be fun to have two tribes in the Caribbean. (Non essential suggestion.)

North America

Here is where culturally speaking it gets a bit mirky. We currently have the Iroquois, Cherokee, Sioux and Apache, representing 10 cultural regions. The Huron and Inuit have been suggested as additional tribes. Here are my suggestions:

1. Combine the Artic and Subartic cultural area.
I know not historically accurate, but that way we can spread the Inuit over a wider area and don't have to create a seperate subartic tribe.

2. Add Algonquians.
Technically I know this is a misnomer, as there is no Algonquian tribe, they are more of a loosely based cultural and language group, but we do have the six tribes of the Iroquois confederacy generalized as the Iroquois, and I think adding Algonquians would accomplish several things:

a) It adds some balance to the Northeastern woodland area. The Huron although a seperate tribe and not part of the Iroquois confederacy are a Iroquoian cultural/language group.

b) The Huron typically sided with the French, whereas the Algonquains south of Canada, sided with the English. The Iroquois, tended to try and play the European nations off of one another. The Hurons, Iroquois and Algonquians were often at war with one another. If this can be reflected in the game somehow you would have an interesting dynamic.

c) It adds greater accuracy. The Iroquois inhabited an area around the southern end of the great lakes and what is now northern New York state and a small area close to the Chesapeake. The Huron occupied an area east of the great lakes, stretching close to Quebec. Geographically these are not huge areas. Algonquian tribes had land along the eastern seaboard from Nova Scotia to Virginia, west of the great lakes and swaths of Southern Canada.

3. Combine Great Basin/Plateau/Northwest/Californian cultural areas & add Shoshone-Ute tribe
For the same reasons as combining the artic & subartic regions. We have the Sioux scattered over the great plains, and the Apache in the southwest, but from the plains westwards we have nothing. I think we need to put another tribe in here. I suggest the Shoshone-Ute. Granted I've merge two tribes but these two seem to have the most prominent cultural reach in the region, and to add even more tribes would fill the continent up too much, we want some open land afterall.

With some of these changes we would have a very different kind of gameplay within each area, for example:

South America

Inca
Tupi
Guarani
Shuar (Jivaro)
Tehuelche (Mapuche)

Somewhat large native tribes, spread over quite an expanse of territory, but with the exception of the Inca's, not very technologically advanced.

Central America

Aztec
Maya
Zapotec

Somewhat smaller tribes with less territory, but highly advanced for native civs.

Caribbean

Arawak
Carib?

Less advanced civ(s), spread across a chain of islands, each village isolated and vulnerable.

North America

Iroqouis
Algonquian
Huron

Cherokee
Sioux
Apache
Shoshoni-Ute
Inuit


Less advanced, but a mix of some smaller tribes, with smaller closely packed territories, and other larger tribes spread out over large distances.

The biggest hurdles I can envisiage is the creation of 2-3 new tribes with Leaderheads, graphics, buttons, and all the other techincal stuff that goes with that, but I am sure we could modify some already existing civs. Once we decide what civs we are going to have and how many, I can provide any missing biographical information, and try to generate a list of villages (if known) and great generals.

Comments/feedback?
 
I've been doing a little research around native civs, and the additional native civs we are talking about adding to the game.

Great. :)

From an ethnograpical point of view there are 15different cultural areas in the america's, 10 in North America, (Artic/Subartic/Northeast/Southeast/Plains/Great Basin/Plateau/Southwest/Northwest/California) 2 in Central America/Caribbean, (Mesoamerica/Caribbean) and 3 in South America, (Andean/Amazonian/Cono-Southern). I will address all 3 areas with possible suggestions that would maintain an air of historical accuracy but also I hope improve gameplay.

I really appreciate your enthusiasm and accuracy but please let us not make things too complicate. ;)

Let us stay with 3 regions for now.
(Maximum of 5 is reasonable at all.)

1. Most players would not understand anyways.
2. Implementation efforts.
3. Problems with the implementation of my algorithm.
...

So for now, let us stay with:

North America
Central America
South America


South America

We currently have the Inca, Tupi, Shuar & Tehuelche and are considering adding the Guarani. I think 5 tribes in South America is sufficient.

:thumbsup:

1. Change Shuar to Jivaro.
The Shuar are one of 4 tribes that make up the Jivaro. Also the Shuar are a rather small tribe located in a rather specific area. If they were renamed the Jivaro, then they could firstly, be more numerous and secondly cover a much wider area.

Ok. :goodjob:

2. Change the Tehuelche to Mapuche. Very much for the same reasons we want to change the Shuar to Jivaro.

Ok. :goodjob:

Leaderheads, buttons, etc would not be a problem as none of that would have to change, the leaders would stay the same. All that would have to change is the historical biographies, add more names of villages, great generals etc., which I could provide.

Sounds good. :)

Central America/Caribbean

We currently have the Aztec & Maya in Central America and the Arawak in the Caribbean. We are thinking of adding the Zapoltec to Central America.

Yes, that is the current plan. :)

The only change I can think of is:

1. Add the Caribs to the Caribbean. The area was named afterall for them, and it might be fun to have two tribes in the Caribbean. (Non essential suggestion.)

We could do that of course, but adding 4 more Native Nations is already an awful amount of work.
(Good Leaderhead, UnitArtStyles, CitySet, Buttons, Texts, Historical Data...)

Please let us focus on 4 Nations first.
When those are finished, we can consider adding even more.

Currently we have our first 4:
(Or do you want to have other 4 Native Nations first ?)

Inuit
Guarani (we could reuse them from AOD II)
Zapotec (we could reuse them from AOD II)
Hurons



North America

Iroquois, Cherokee, Sioux and Apache, ....
The Huron and Inuit have been suggested ...

Yes, Hurons and Inuit are the 2 most desired to be added currently. :)

1. Combine the Artic and Subartic cultural area.
I know not historically accurate, but that way we can spread the Inuit over a wider area and don't have to create a seperate subartic tribe.

Please let us not do it. :(

1. Everybody understands the name "Inuit".
2. "Arcitc" would not sound nice.

2. Add Algonquians.
Spoiler :

Technically I know this is a misnomer, as there is no Algonquian tribe, they are more of a loosely based cultural and language group, but we do have the six tribes of the Iroquois confederacy generalized as the Iroquois, and I think adding Algonquians would accomplish several things:

a) It adds some balance to the Northeastern woodland area. The Huron although a seperate tribe and not part of the Iroquois confederacy are a Iroquoian cultural/language group.

b) The Huron typically sided with the French, whereas the Algonquains south of Canada, sided with the English. The Iroquois, tended to try and play the European nations off of one another. The Hurons, Iroquois and Algonquians were often at war with one another. If this can be reflected in the game somehow you would have an interesting dynamic.

c) It adds greater accuracy. The Iroquois inhabited an area around the southern end of the great lakes and what is now northern New York state and a small area close to the Chesapeake. The Huron occupied an area east of the great lakes, stretching close to Quebec. Geographically these are not huge areas. Algonquian tribes had land along the eastern seaboard from Nova Scotia to Virginia, west of the great lakes and swaths of Southern Canada.

Generally yes. :thumbsup:
But again, let us focus on 4 Nations and then eventually add more.

3. Combine Great Basin/Plateau/Northwest/Californian cultural areas & add Shoshone-Ute tribe
For the same reasons as combining the artic & subartic regions. We have the Sioux scattered over the great plains, and the Apache in the southwest, but from the plains westwards we have nothing. I think we need to put another tribe in here. I suggest the Shoshone-Ute. Granted I've merge two tribes but these two seem to have the most prominent cultural reach in the region, and to add even more tribes would fill the continent up too much, we want some open land afterall.

Not sure ...

Actually if adding more Natives (than Inuit and Hurons) to North America, there would be many other names comming in my mind before.
(Commanches, Cheyenne, ... which is pretty much what you are talking about with "Shoshone" but the names are more commonly known.)

But ok, I guess, we could simply talk about it, once we have finished the first 4 and want to implement another Native Nation.

The biggest hurdles I can envisiage is the creation of 2-3 new tribes with Leaderheads, graphics, buttons, and all the other techincal stuff that goes with that, but I am sure we could modify some already existing civs. Once we decide what civs we are going to have and how many, I can provide any missing biographical information, and try to generate a list of villages (if known) and great generals.

I already started working on that. :)
(Collected many leaderheads and graphics and also started talks to other modders ...)

Comments/feedback?

Great work. :goodjob:
 
South America

Inca
Tupi
Guarani <-- could be reused from AOD II
Shuar (Jivaro)
Tehuelche (Mapuche)


Central America

Aztec
Maya
Zapotec <-- could be reused from AOD II
Arawak
Carib <-- let us talk about it after we added the first 4, not really sure


North America

Iroqouis
Algonquian <-- let us talk about it after we added the first 4, but generally yes
Huron <-- think I already have a good leaderhead
Cherokee
Sioux
Apache
Shoshoni-Ute <-- let us talk about it after we added the first 4, not really sure
Inuit <-- currently talking about it with TAC-team

--------------------

General Problem:

We really need to keep the 3 areas generally in balance.
Otherwise the algorithm for "Geographically Correct Placement" I implemented will create strange results.
(Which is more important for me, than historical accuracy ...)

So this is ok:
(example)

North: 5
Central: 5 or 4
South: 5

This is also ok:
(example)

North: 7
Central: 4 or 5
South: 7

This is not ok:
(example)

North: 8
Central: 5
South: 5
 
Could we agree on this general plan ? :)

1) Adding 4 new (Priority 1)

Inuit (in creation/preparation)
Huron (in creation/preparation)
Guarani (reused from AODII)
Zapotec (reused from AODII)

--> Getting 15 Native Nations with 6 / 4 / 5 distribution, which is pretty balanced

Spoiler :

North America: 6

Iroqouis
Huron
Cherokee
Sioux
Apache
Inuit

Central America: 4

Aztec
Maya
Zapotec
Arawak

South America : 5

Inca
Tupi
Guarani
Shuar (Jivaro)
Tehuelche (Mapuche)


2) Eventually adding further later (Priority 2)

We could discuss which ones, if we are still motivated to create further Native Nations after the 4 mentioned above. :)
(We should still try to stay somehow balanced with North <-> South.)
 
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