If they add an exclusivity clause, who cares? We just say "Duh...UH.. OK" take their MC and give it to the rest of the alliance. They can't do anything about it. Plus, they will DEFINITELY give Alpha to Saturn... exclusivity clause or no.
SANCTA Embassy & Intelligence
- Thread starter Kaleb
- Start date
damnrunner
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 2,004
I am concerned that giving them alpha would give them a good chance of getting the GL before us.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
We need to make an offer they can refuse, so we can say that we tried to make a deal, but they were not forth coming.
Indiansmoke
Deity
Why don't we choose the twilight deal, and tell them we can continue negotiations after as we don't need any of the techs they offer...
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
We present them the "Way of the Dawn", gaining ground with our own worded proposal. State we are open to technology trades, but we want an informed decision, as we indeed will have Alphabet in a few turns. Also state we are willing to enter an open borders agreement as soon as we got sailing. Tell them we are positive to future cooperation, but we already got Mysticism, and would need to consider what options are on the table as soon as we get Alphabet.
If we do that then we'll be at war when we get alphabet, they will see that we are trading tachs with both Cav and MS by the time we've passed through.
They may be willing to give us MC but surely not if they know we'll give it to everyone else...
I think we should give them to offer of a trade and do it as soon as we get Alpha, that may be our only chance to trade with them.
They may be willing to give us MC but surely not if they know we'll give it to everyone else...
I think we should give them to offer of a trade and do it as soon as we get Alpha, that may be our only chance to trade with them.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Ok, we go for Alphabet vs. Metal Casting then immediately. Call it the "Way of the Afternoon". Then declare war after the trade until one side got sailing for trade routes, as we sail through., but open borders as soon either party got sailing.
Indiansmoke
Deity
we cannot expect to fool Sancta..I say we take the twilight, tell them we do not need the techs they offer and we can discuss if they have another proposal later.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I think we should just sail on, because they know very well that Cav got Meditation, if you saw General Ws latest Oracle video where they mocked team Cavaleiros. If we tell them we only want Metal Casting, not Priesthood, they figured out both Team Cavs tech route to monarchy, as well as our technology cooperation, and thus drive them closer to Saturn, even close to MS as well.
The best way is to hide this via the Way of the Twillight (negotiate until we get Alphabet), declare war under the Way of the Twilight, do our trades as we sail through, and then negotiate when we see what is available after we have done our trades.
The best way is to hide this via the Way of the Twillight (negotiate until we get Alphabet), declare war under the Way of the Twilight, do our trades as we sail through, and then negotiate when we see what is available after we have done our trades.
Other than IW, they are offering us techs they know we can get from elsewhere. They know Cav have Med from buddhism and they know they have PH as well. They may be able to guess Cav are after Monarchy from the time they are taking to get their next tech, as it's either Monarchy or MC that Cav are teching.
They will know in two turns that we are trading with Cav, so we aren't if we message them now they will be able to make an educated guess about something they will know for sure in 2 turns anyway. So we aren't really giving away much.
If we DoW now there is no guarantee SANCTA will want to trade anything with us afterwards, or even agree to peace (they may want to hide their tech status).
I think if we are going to do a trade with SANCTA our only option for doing so will probably be now.
I am sure SANCTA will be planning an alliance with Saturn as soon as they realise we are trading with Cav and MS, although my guess is they are already in talks with them.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Let's just stall a turn and send Kaleb's proposed reply. If we sail on we will only meet Saturn - another team we won't know what to say to. Unless we want to draw Saturn into a four way alliance. 
We will also be able to find other teams once we get into and through the center hub.
We can't do an alphabet for metal working trade with SANCTA immediately since we don't have alphabet and they are probably many turns away from metal casting. We also need approval from our two allies about any outside tech trade. I know the treaty isn't formally signed at this point but that's really only a formality, isn't it? We should proceed as if we have an agreement in place.
We will also be able to find other teams once we get into and through the center hub.We can't do an alphabet for metal working trade with SANCTA immediately since we don't have alphabet and they are probably many turns away from metal casting. We also need approval from our two allies about any outside tech trade. I know the treaty isn't formally signed at this point but that's really only a formality, isn't it? We should proceed as if we have an agreement in place.
Indiansmoke
Deity
I don't understand what the problem with taking the way of the twilight that they offered is? It is exactly what we want.. to get through without declaring against their will.
We know we will not trade with them anyway..otherwise what is the point of the alliance if we start giving techs to members outside the alliance?
the only reason i can think of to wait is the possibility of MS not joining the alliance and us trying to pull SANCTA in...
We know we will not trade with them anyway..otherwise what is the point of the alliance if we start giving techs to members outside the alliance?
the only reason i can think of to wait is the possibility of MS not joining the alliance and us trying to pull SANCTA in...
When we met SANCTA we changed all our espionage points to SANCTA to conceal the fact that we met other civs. If we tell them we do not need their techs they will instantly know that we are getting them from somebody else. Why else would we reject a tech trade? That means changing espionage points was meaningless.
I think we should ask our allies if they want to trade with SANCTA. Just leave the wb where it is for now and end the turn. We need to figure out if SANCTA actually has IW or if they are getting it from MS.
I think we should ask our allies if they want to trade with SANCTA. Just leave the wb where it is for now and end the turn. We need to figure out if SANCTA actually has IW or if they are getting it from MS.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Why is it exactly what we want? I'm not even convinced of the importance of sailing on. We will only meet Saturn - another team we probably won't want to trade with or even talk to!
Making a profitable trade or two doesn't necessarily negate the advantages of our alliance. In fact, wouldn't a trade benefit us more since we already have the 3 versus 2 advantage? If SANCTA and Saturn are allied then one of them will surely go for alphabet soon anyway. If we can get metal casting soon wouldn't we benefit? We haven't even mapped out our next tech goals for the alliance. How can we be sure a trade or two wouldn't help us more than SANCTA/Saturn?
One reason to wait is to delay SANCTA figuring out they already face a three way alliance. Stalling for one more turn does not mean we can't take the Way of the Twilight next turn.
Indiansmoke
Deity
There is no way to "hide" that we have met another civ and are trading with them...we will have Alpha in a few turns...
This masquerating is pointless....the way of the twilight does not say we do not trade with them...it says they let us pass and we continue discussions to see if and what we will trade.
So telling them that IW and the techs they offer do not interest us, and let us pass now and we can contyinue talks is perfectly all right....
Also having espionaze on them is to be able to see what they tech next...while we will know what cavaleirios and MS tech with no espionaze, because they will tell us.
Indiansmoke
Deity
The advantage of sailing on is to see the map...see who is next after them (if it is Saturn in the first place) and see what techs saturn has...also get the tech bonus from known civs...but that is minor as they will get it from us as well.
Now giving them Alphabet is at least disasterous them asking for it means that not them nor Saturn is going for it...which means they will delay exchanging techs...and more importantly that they NEED to go for it...hence giving us a better chance for CoL and the great library!
donsig
Low level intermediary
Now giving them Alphabet is at least disasterous them asking for it means that not them nor Saturn is going for it...which means they will delay exchanging techs...and more importantly that they NEED to go for it...hence giving us a better chance for CoL and the great library!
Giving us a better shot at the Great Library is a very good reason not to trade with SANCTA. But that doesn't mean we have to let them know right away that we aren't going to trade with them. I think it's important to string them along as long as possible. If we don't make like we're interested in trading with them that's the same as telling them up front we don't need them because we already have an alliance. And telling them that will only cement the SANCTA/Saturn alliance. We should not yet rule out trying to bring Saturn into a kill SANCTA alliance.
I still think we should avoid DoW until we at least have Alphabet. But whatever we do, we have 6 hours to end our current turn.
Can we do a quick straw poll in this thread for people to say what we do with our workboat?
Can we do a quick straw poll in this thread for people to say what we do with our workboat?
