The Community Deity Game #3 - Ethiopia

^^ Okay, so just 25 turns faster than I did? I don’t feel too bad then!

Not sure if that's supposed to be sarcasm? I resumed your game on turn 179 and took 100 turns to win. Your best game took 127 turns from that point -- so you took 27% longer, basically. If we assumed it was a linear pattern, that means I'd basically be winning on turn 240 when you were winning on turn 300 if we both started on turn 0.

And the larger problem is that optimization matters more in the early parts of the game (that whole cascade thing).

I am not being sarcastic, I thought your results would be more dramatic. But you are quite correct, that saving 60 turns is something that I should be paying attention to.

LordBalkoth said:

And the larger problem is that optimization matters more in the early parts of the game (that whole cascade thing).

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Yes, from the other thread, I though we had established that my larger difficulties were in the earlier part of the game.

I restarted this one from scratch, no screenshots because I didn't feel like reaching for f12. I need to learn how to put those in spoilers like everyone else too. Anyways, went three city honor this time, built Scout-stele-scout-settler-warrior-settler and stole 4 workers: 2 from DOW's with Byzantines and Netherlands, 1 from Hong Kong, and another from a barb camp outside Constantinople. I built my 3 cities by turn 35ish and founded the third religion with Tithe and Mosques. I built NC on turn 82, and failed the Oracle by 2 turns on turn 90. This has been my only flaw. I took right honor and got the upgrade discount, and now just finished it in time to start commerce. I'll circle back around for Piety/aesthetics once I start conquering, which will be soon. It's turn 106 and I am 6 turns from Machinery and about to upgrade all of my CB's to XB's.

I built all of my caravans as soon as possible and have several trade routes going, and this has made my science game glorious. I also made stables and stoneworks a priority as there were 6 pastures in my northern city and another 6 in my capital along with the 4 quarries and 2 in my southern expo. I popped a population ruin on turn 3, so I was able to get to pop 3 for my double settlers. Since I went honor to machinery, I hard-built Aquaducts in my three cities to make sure they can work their university slots once I can hard-build those in about 20+ turns from now. First two cities are pop 8 and 9, third city is 6, and their production is off the charts.

I am building composite bows as fast as possible in anticipation for the coming wars, and will be upgrading them all once I hit machinery (I have 30 gold per turn somehow and have saved over 600) and then DOWing the Dutch or the Byzantines. The dutch are a better target, as they are already at war with rome and Amsterdam has some great wonders and cerro de potatoes, but I still have a DOF with them. It has to expire first before I declare war right? What happens if I jump the gun? I'm heading to artillery as fast as possible after I get my universities (After maybe stopping by industrialism first for first pick in autocracy) but still this isn't this prime attack time? I need to start taking more screenshots and stop playing this game at 5 AM. I can't even remember where I was exactly now because its a giant hexagonical blur...

beetle said:

But you are quite correct, that saving 60 turns is something that I should be paying attention to.

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Even saving 27ish turns is huge -- I mean, the Rationalism opener gives 10% more Science and is considered a massive bonus. And 270 turns vs 300 turns is about a 10% difference, for example.

beetle said:

Yes, from the other thread, I though we had established that my larger difficulties were in the earlier part of the game.

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Yeah. The fact you didn't have Secularism at that point in the game (2 science per specialist) was really, really bad : /

Posted video series in other thread.

280CV



6 points, 2 holies converted and won both fairs, 2 policies short of filling 4 trees.

Captured for all those sweet wonders.

This one was pretty gruelling though, win time could definitely have been a lot better. A single religion spread everywhere with two faith buildings and SS. Everyone went for the same ideology except me. With the huge hostile tourism I hit -42 happiness at some point, but it was too late to change ideology. Add having 2 luxes banned, DOWs from the civs I was importings luxes and trying to go 8 cities and you have a rough time.

Well I just started this one last night - a bit belated but it's a fun looking map for sure.

Some observations about the map and game.

Ethiopia's advantage is the early faith from the Stele. I think with this map you're best to pick Tradition so you pickup 3 free Stele (assuming you built 1 in the capital) as soon as your expo's are planted. Even with Liberty and Republic it's going to take a city about 10-12 turns to build a Stele (that is 24 lost faith). Multiply that over 3 cities and you are behind by about 75 faith. Of course Liberty can get it's expo's up before Tradition but I still think it falls behind.

There is plenty of production from the stone & pastures for settlers. Key is to worker-steal & prioritise Calender after Masonry and buy a StoneWorks - that essentially gives you a strong enough production that you won't need Liberty for the settler bonus anyway. So key point is to save all your early game gold (from CSs, ruins, income etc... and ideally buy the StoneWorks - the production bonus is too good to delay...). Note too that the StoneWorks for it's hammer cost is actually 80 gold cheaper than equivalent buildings such as the Library. Hence I play a high value on the buying the StoneWorks with gold.

There is a lot of land as people have mentioned but there is absolutely nothing wrong with expanding to 3-5 cities with NC and then filling in the gaps. The late expo's are there to help generate faith & accelerate religious pressure. If you have a religious building you'll have extra faith, culture and happiness to further add the value the late expo's will produce. There are plenty of horses around too so the extra circuses will alleviate unhappiness and there is a reasonable spread of luxuries too. The main danger of course is the AIs.

There's a reasonable amount of stone around and absolute tonne of pastures. So the two obvious pantheons are Stone Circle for faith or God of the Open Sky.
Both are pretty valid although I tend to lean toward Stone Circles - even though it's not as good in the long run as the pasture culture, if you want to be able to get an early religion then I think you really need the faith. The sooner you found and take your enhancer belief the faster your religion will start spreading. The 10 or so faith from the Stone doesn't make much of an impact with buying lots of late game Great People but it still helps you get your religion going earlier which is still important.

Also worker stealing I found is super easy as Ethiopia. As all the AIs have 2 cities on Diety your units are going to have a +20% strength bonus which will allow them to worker steal with much less risk.

Well here's my progress.

I actually had an incredible start. 2 Population ruins, 2 culture ruins, an archer upgrade and a free faith pantheon. I stole 2 workers from Byzantium and plundered 2 of their caravans in due course...


- So turn 20 the capital was at size 5 with a free pantheon ruin
- So with the early super capital, the 2 workers I decided to give the MoH Stone Strategy a shot. I did build a settler first though (that was only about 9 turns... so the delay wasn't too long). So I had 2 cities and MoH by turn 42. So MoH delayed the later expo's a bit but the extra gold more than made up for it. I only have the confidence to say this because I did get very good luck with ruins and workers...

- Turn 50 I founded religion

- Turn 74 Enhanced religion, built Oracle & kept expanding.

It's been pretty good so far. I've had to continually bribe the SW neighbor into war to keep them off my back. The neighbors to the Nth didn't cause me any dramas. My military will soon be on par anyway so I'm looking to kick some arse soon.

Well I finally finished with a Turn 307 cultural victory.

Since this thread seems to have died I won't bother posting screenshots for now.

Only interesting thing to note was that everyone went Order except the SW neighbor who took Autocracy (I went Freedom). I was being hit by Tier 1 Ideological unhappiness and World Ideology: Order had been proposed so I really had no way out of this, plus with diplomacy worsening things for me, there simply wasn't enough happiness to win. I soon realised it was easier winning a culture victory if I just switched to Order (that removes the ideology tourism penalty + I can pick up the bonus tourism to Order civs and the bonus tourism to less happy civs & then the SW neighbor switched to Order too. This works out a lot easier than having to build Broadcast Towers. I still got the Statue of Liberty though and the Volunteer Army before switching... nice little cheat that one.
Points were as follows

1. Have x AI holy cities converted by the end of the game, points scale as follows:

1 converted -> 1 point (YES)
2 converted -> 2 points
3 converted -> 4 points
4 converted -> 7 points

2. Use faith to buy at least 3 great people of the same type (that means stockpile at least 5000 by the end) 3 points (YES)

3. Finish at least 4 social policy trees - 3 points (YES)

4. Make your religion the dominant on the map i.e. have it followed by the majority of cities - 4 points (Close but no dice - probably around 38-40% of cities - not all cities follow a religion, the faith screen doesn't give this information out so that is my estimation)

5. Win both World Fair and International Games - 4 points (YES)

I didn't do too bad with religion - but I couldn't make it spread as much as I hoped to, even with the Great Mosque of Djenne. I really probably should have taken Evangelism instead of To the Glory of God but I kinda needed some of the earlier Great Person purchases. I even had World Religion too so I probably should have done better here. I had nearly half the total cities converted but all those islands were difficult to reach and most of the Holy Cities were on the far side of the map and difficult to reach, although 1 was destroyed/inquisitioned by an AI and another Holy City captured and that civ wiped out (The Holy City remained though).



Anyways that is 12 points in total

Redaxe said:

4. Make your religion the dominant on the map i.e. have it followed by the majority of cities - 4 points (Close but no dice - probably around 38-40% of cities - not all cities follow a religion, the faith screen doesn't give this information out so that is my estimation)

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You should double check this achievement, as around 40% may be enough. There was a clarification earlier that you only need to have your religion be followed by MORE cities than the 2nd place religion.

T249 Cultural Victory, all achievements/full points

Brief timeline
T51 founded religion
T68 enhance
T86 6-city NC (built; Liberty finisher used to plant GS)
T98 Machinery, sent my Xbows off to the North
T118 Education (had Metal Casting already)
T121 captured first capital/holy city
T147 finished LToP; used GE on Sistine
-I failed on Globe Theatre; didn't try for Uffizi or Louvre
-also built Oracle and Sydney Opera House (GE only did half the job!) in an expo, while capital built Big Ben, Eiffel Tower, and Porcelain Tower (lots of AI went Rationalism, glad I got it!)
T162 have wiped out 2 civs completely, so they can't denounce me
T176 Reform (buy any Great person)
T231 Won IG, finished Rationalism, teched Internet
T239-ish finished National Visitor Center
T248 finished Broadway

Probably my best game ever, from early worker stealing/caravan sniping/tile pillaging (works great if the city is busy firing at a nearby barb) to keeping the world busy with wars, to late-game timing.



Edit to add:
Early game, I wrecked havoc on 3 closest neighbours with 3 scouts and upgraded warrior. Captured at least 1 worker and at least 1 caravan from each. Got a worker from 4th civ (first to found religion, likely in everyone's game). Pillaged 6-7 tiles while northern civ had units away to deal with barb camp and cities were dealing with further barbs. I expanded to 6 cities fairly quickly and this gold helped buy tiles with luxuries and 2-3 stone ones for early quarries. I kept the northern civs from expanding much, capturing 6-7 settlers (2 from NE and 4-5 from NW).
I never founded beyond the starting 6. First 5 captured cities became puppets, after which I started razing cities that weren't on the way to my next target (Holy city); liberated one CS (Mercantile).
I built 1 guild each in 3 expos, none in capital. I only built the National Epic at the very end of the game to try and get another natural GMusician, but it didn't actually make a difference. I used 1 Great Artist to keep golden age going during the +culture following WF win (had golden age for 18/20 turns); used 2 great writers to get culture, timed at the peak of WF/GA, getting >3,000 culture on each.
A significant moment was when I made peace with (civ that was first to found religion, ended game with 2nd most cities under their religion, though they weren't around to enjoy it). I got 3 of their cities - they offered the exact 3 that I wanted - and sold 1 each to closest neighbours, all of whom I already had at war with them. I got a lot of money from this and my friends closed in and finished the job. This was around T205-210. I used 1 GS on Plastics, waited 2 turns to finish Big Ben then bought 6/6 labs. 2 techs later, I immediately bought 6 hotels.
I kept everything as puppets as long as I felt possible, to help with social policies; I didn't Annex any cities until ~6 turns out from the start of International Games, as I didn't think 6 cities would be enough to win IG. I bought all remaining +production buildings that gave at least +2 (didn't buy forges for 1 iron tile) in all cities before start of IG. I annexed further cities after IG, my process for annexing was:
-cities with 2+ wonders (which always meant good production) were annexed to help with IG
-cities with a wonder or that would have a landmark were annexed after IG, once Architect was done
I got architects out late and was still building them after IG; they were still finishing up in the final 3 turns, so my final 4 musicians had 3 different values, all around 6k.
World Religion was passed on the winning turn.

T274 CV
Achievement 3

I played this map to win by domination, despite the suggested Culture win. I don't like non-domination games, basically.

I won on turn 198, having captured the first capital in the 120s. Using Honor and upgrading a lot of ancient and classical era units allowed for some super-powered Mehal Safaris to soak up the blows while first Trebuchets, and then later Cannons and Artillery pieces rained hell on the opponents.

I purposely avoided ranged units, as it's much too easy to win with Composites and Crossbows, and also, they become useless as no one wants to make war with Gatling Guns, do they?

After settling 3 cities, I build a lot of units and prepared for war. I was certain one of my 4 neighbours would declare war own me, and it came from the Wu, who backstabbed me in the process. Getting to Steel early was what saved me, and my Longswordsmen kept the ChoKuNus and Horses at bay.

After holding Wu off, I pushed her back and took her capital, then Rome, then went on towards Aztecs while a 2nd army went after Byzantium and then up into Netherlands. AI was kept at war with by bribes, so tech pace was slow and when my Safaris came online with an Oxford-Scientist push towards Rifling, I had a lot of them and it looked great seeing them march towards the enemy cities while the cannons moved into position and blasted everything away.

Commerce was filled quickly due to the alliances with Cultural city states and Theodora having the Culture wonders, and then I saved up some money to buy 3 factories and open Autocracy.

The first army took out Aztecs, Swedes and America in less than 20 turns, then both armies fell to the SW to finish off the Incans on their little scruffy peninsula.

I think that if you keep everyone at war, and push towards a specific technology like Rifling, and have an enormous spam army, it's the safest way of clearing the map in a single big push. If Mehals had come earlier like Americas unit, then I could have finished the game even earlier, by maybe 15 turns.

So it was Honor --> Commerce --> Autocracy.

No ranged units, no guilds, no built Wonders, sold science buildings after Rifling.

Thanks to peddroelm and consentient

While I was spreading my religion and conquering wonders and great works all over mother Earth, Washi got to space I did got 3 achievements though (A: 3 converted, B: 3 architects and D), so it was fun anyways! And I could have voted myself world leader on turn 311 (had 42 voices with all the states, world religion and ideology and forbidden palace), but I had to abstain, because I needed culture!

enslingkorp said:

I played this map to win by domination, despite the suggested Culture win. I don't like non-domination games, basically.

I won on turn 198, having captured the first capital in the 120s. Using Honor and upgrading a lot of ancient and classical era units allowed for some super-powered Mehal Safaris to soak up the blows while first Trebuchets, and then later Cannons and Artillery pieces rained hell on the opponents.

I purposely avoided ranged units, as it's much too easy to win with Composites and Crossbows, and also, they become useless as no one wants to make war with Gatling Guns, do they?

After settling 3 cities, I build a lot of units and prepared for war. I was certain one of my 4 neighbours would declare war own me, and it came from the Wu, who backstabbed me in the process. Getting to Steel early was what saved me, and my Longswordsmen kept the ChoKuNus and Horses at bay.

After holding Wu off, I pushed her back and took her capital, then Rome, then went on towards Aztecs while a 2nd army went after Byzantium and then up into Netherlands. AI was kept at war with by bribes, so tech pace was slow and when my Safaris came online with an Oxford-Scientist push towards Rifling, I had a lot of them and it looked great seeing them march towards the enemy cities while the cannons moved into position and blasted everything away.

Commerce was filled quickly due to the alliances with Cultural city states and Theodora having the Culture wonders, and then I saved up some money to buy 3 factories and open Autocracy.

The first army took out Aztecs, Swedes and America in less than 20 turns, then both armies fell to the SW to finish off the Incans on their little scruffy peninsula.

I think that if you keep everyone at war, and push towards a specific technology like Rifling, and have an enormous spam army, it's the safest way of clearing the map in a single big push. If Mehals had come earlier like Americas unit, then I could have finished the game even earlier, by maybe 15 turns.

So it was Honor --> Commerce --> Autocracy.

No ranged units, no guilds, no built Wonders, sold science buildings after Rifling.

Thanks to peddroelm and consentient

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Winning with no ranged units is really something...how do you manage to do it without losing too many units?

gobbledydook said:

Winning with no ranged units is really something...how do you manage to do it without losing too many units?

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1. Build them as Warriors, train them so they have March/Cover (and maybe Blitz) before they 'become' Mehal Safari.

2. Build roads into the enemy capitals when your there friend, so you can retreat the damaged units out quickly.

3. Kill all the troops outside the city range before closing in.

4. Use workers to bait the units out of the city.

5. Keep one unit always a little damaged (prefertably with Covre) so the city goes for that.

enslingkorp said:

I played this map to win by domination, despite the suggested Culture win. I don't like non-domination games, basically.

I won on turn 198, having captured the first capital in the 120s. Using Honor and upgrading a lot of ancient and classical era units allowed for some super-powered Mehal Safaris to soak up the blows while first Trebuchets, and then later Cannons and Artillery pieces rained hell on the opponents.

I purposely avoided ranged units, as it's much too easy to win with Composites and Crossbows, and also, they become useless as no one wants to make war with Gatling Guns, do they?

After settling 3 cities, I build a lot of units and prepared for war. I was certain one of my 4 neighbours would declare war own me, and it came from the Wu, who backstabbed me in the process. Getting to Steel early was what saved me, and my Longswordsmen kept the ChoKuNus and Horses at bay.

After holding Wu off, I pushed her back and took her capital, then Rome, then went on towards Aztecs while a 2nd army went after Byzantium and then up into Netherlands. AI was kept at war with by bribes, so tech pace was slow and when my Safaris came online with an Oxford-Scientist push towards Rifling, I had a lot of them and it looked great seeing them march towards the enemy cities while the cannons moved into position and blasted everything away.

Commerce was filled quickly due to the alliances with Cultural city states and Theodora having the Culture wonders, and then I saved up some money to buy 3 factories and open Autocracy.

The first army took out Aztecs, Swedes and America in less than 20 turns, then both armies fell to the SW to finish off the Incans on their little scruffy peninsula.

I think that if you keep everyone at war, and push towards a specific technology like Rifling, and have an enormous spam army, it's the safest way of clearing the map in a single big push. If Mehals had come earlier like Americas unit, then I could have finished the game even earlier, by maybe 15 turns.

So it was Honor --> Commerce --> Autocracy.

No ranged units, no guilds, no built Wonders, sold science buildings after Rifling.

Click to expand...

@enslingkorp

Don`t mind me if I am being a bit too inquisitive. I have never tried melee units on deity too much.

1.It really seems incredible that you won a deity domination victory with only melee units. It would nice if you provided us with a screenshot of your <t100 army composition. How did you manage to prevent 15 pop AI caps from killing your melee units. Also what is the ideal build for a melee only army.

2. It seems you had Industrialization,Rifling and Dynamite(all by and probably before turn 198).What tech path did you follow and what is generally your ideal beakers per turn? (Also you got to Steel early which means you must have delayed Education and still got the required techs.)

3. I am also curious about your culture per turn as you managed to finish both commerce and honor. As you started conquest early,you must have had to deal with either annexing/puppeting or razing cities. Puppeting removes the culture penalty while science wise I believe it is better to annex cities. What path did you take?

Firstly, let me repeat what I said in the other thread. Domination without ranged units is suboptimal. But on some maps, winning with Archers, Composite Bowmen and Crossbows, is a breeze. If you're looking for an extra challenge, choosing to leave them out can be a fun challenge to try. I got the idea from players like Grendeldef, Manpanzee, and Consentient.

Bear in mind that this is not JUST with melee units. Siege units were used as well. And units DID die, but if you do as I said by clearing out the units around the city, baiting the units out of the city, and getting the siege units into position, you can take them in a turn or two. The important thing is getting to the tech early so that the damage the Trebuchets/Cannons inflict will be enough to take the city before 3 tuens.

Tech wise, I was at peace until Wu Zetian DoW'd me. So I could concentrate on growth. Getting to Education as fast as possible is the biggest part of this. After Education, you just click on Gunpowder, then Chemistry, then other techs you will need. Forget Scientific Theory, you won't need it. And as you conquer capitals, you can annex them for a huge science boost. I recommend you watch some of peddroelm's videos to see the general idea of this. In games where the computer players get to the Renaissance early, you can often steal Education, as well.

Not sure what you mean about 3. I did not start conquest early. Far later than normal. And as you conquer capitals, you have a LOT of extra culture from the Wonders that the computer player built.

[EDIT: There is an Aztec map in the forums. I'll play that without ranged units, and try to remember to take some screenshots]

enslingkorp said:

Firstly, let me repeat what I said in the other thread. Domination without ranged units is suboptimal. But on some maps, winning with Archers, Composite Bowmen and Crossbows, is a breeze. If you're looking for an extra challenge, choosing to leave them out can be a fun challenge to try. I got the idea from players like Grendeldef, Manpanzee, and Consentient.

Bear in mind that this is not JUST with melee units. Siege units were used as well. And units DID die, but if you do as I said by clearing out the units around the city, baiting the units out of the city, and getting the siege units into position, you can take them in a turn or two. The important thing is getting to the tech early so that the damage the Trebuchets/Cannons inflict will be enough to take the city before 3 tuens.

Tech wise, I was at peace until Wu Zetian DoW'd me. So I could concentrate on growth. Getting to Education as fast as possible is the biggest part of this. After Education, you just click on Gunpowder, then Chemistry, then other techs you will need. Forget Scientific Theory, you won't need it. And as you conquer capitals, you can annex them for a huge science boost. I recommend you watch some of peddroelm's videos to see the general idea of this. In games where the computer players get to the Renaissance early, you can often steal Education, as well.

Not sure what you mean about 3. I did not start conquest early. Far later than normal. And as you conquer capitals, you have a LOT of extra culture from the Wonders that the computer player built.

[EDIT: There is an Aztec map in the forums. I'll play that without ranged units, and try to remember to take some screenshots]

Click to expand...

I have watched some of Peddroelm`s vids. In fact my deity domination games are partly based on his guides even though I generally go for Liberty-Commerce-Order policies and throw in Nukes along with Tanks-Arty.(see my CDG #6 Zulu screenshot)

In most of peddroelm`s vids he hardly conquers all civs by less than t200.(Unless he has the Mongol UU.) This probably had to do with pre patch warmongering hate and so he intentionally slowed down his conquests.

I am quite interested to know what tech path one has to follow to reach a fast steel and education simultaneously. With cara science leech and early NC one can easily get a fast education or machinery but not both. Steel/Machinery and Education are on the opposite paths of tech tree.
This is the reason I wanted to know your ideal beakers/turn and your tech path so I could use them as benchmarks in my domination games. What I had found incredible is that you had 3 Honor cities and yet you managed to get early education and steel.

Also you mention getting Rifling,Dynamite and Industrialization. You said you Oxforded Rifling.(obviously to get Mehels up) However Industrialization and especially Dynamite are not very cheap techs. What was your strategy that you managed to get them both pre t200?

As for point 3. I meant how many cities you puppeted,razed or annexed. Puppeting does not give culture penalty(10% for SP if you annex a city) but does increase science cost(5% irrespective of annex/puppet). Also you only get 25% of the science/culture of puppeted cities. Annexing is better for increasing science and growing the city.

I am curious to know how many cities were puppeted/annexed. I feel I can improve my domination game by trying to follow a few benchmarks.

Gosh, I don't really remember those small details. I don't think Education was *that* early. I may have stolen it, I don't remember.

Next time I pursue a similar plan, I'll take more notes.

As for puppeting, I generally don't keep cities unless they are capitals (obviously), or really good for wonders/strategic position/guilds etc. I annex as soon as I have a spare 600 gold.

I think in this game I only took the capitals. Can't really remember.

The only thing I remember about this game is having a LOT of units.