Compare Liberty and Tradition, Head-to-Head

I would be impressed if someone managed to go straight from Liberty->Rationalism. What is that, t90 Acoustics?

But, also, since you're going to get that policy whether you have 4 or 8 cities, I don't see how that compensates at all. Tradition players get it too. If that policy was 10% + 1% per city, well, that would be different.

Turn 68 - four cities NC. Eight turn more to probably best social policy in game - tradition finisher

Manpanzee said:

I agree, the only Civs that I think are definitely above the Shoshone in general are Poland and Babylon.

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adcarrymaokai said:

I do think the Shoshone are second best after Poland, though very rapid expansion like this with no drawbacks seems to be possible only with Pocatello.

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Yeah, just think that not so long ago people were arguing with me that America is better than Shoshone (don't know maybe they play other game or only archipelago or tiny islands )

IronfighterXXX said:

Turn 68 - four cities NC. Eight turn more to probably best social policy in game - tradition finisher





Yeah, just think that not so long ago people were arguing with me that America is better than Shoshone (don't know maybe they play other game or only archipelago or tiny islands )

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If you rig a map and disable ruins, America can be better than Shoshone. It's hard to picture it otherwise. Without ruins, I can see it mostly in situations where relevant expansions have resources + good tiles clumped anyway (limiting the utility of Shoshone border growth) or on maps with a lot of naval combat (the extra sight is a major advantage). It's a reach for sure, mostly because Shoshone is just really good on most maps. I think America mostly wins on water maps (continents included) if you shut off ruins only. Otherwise the guaranteed ruin picks, pathfinder early advantage and border growth are too good.

TheMeInTeam said:

If you rig a map and disable ruins, America can be better than Shoshone. It's hard to picture it otherwise.

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Even without ruins double more land from start is without doubt almost always better than +1 sight and cheaper tiles.

IronfighterXXX said:

Turn 68 - four cities NC. Eight turn more to probably best social policy in game - tradition finisher





Yeah, just think that not so long ago people were arguing with me that America is better than Shoshone (don't know maybe they play other game or only archipelago or tiny islands )

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Shoshone is pretty strong but I don't think they are 3rd. Attila for example would cream them with horse archers as well as egypt with chariots. They are good but do extra borders really make that big a difference if you don't find many ruins?

In a duel situation America can be better than Shoshone on a duel sized map because their sight allows them to snatch up all the ruins and completely hinder the ruin ability. Especially since America can have 3 scouts out pretty quick where pathfinders take a long time build in comparison. On a duel sized map you have to get all the ruins very early or they are all gone.

I have had many Shoshone players realize I snatched up all the ruins in a duel with America and straight up quit.

@CraigMak

It's all true, but you realise we are talking about SP not MP? (no AIs is gonna cream me )

IronfighterXXX said:

Turn 68 - four cities NC. Eight turn more to probably best social policy in game - tradition finisher )

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Nice. Are you planning to expand more? And if not, do you always play 4 cities in your science games now?

How are you guys handling your social policies when doing a Liberty main / tradition off hybrid?

Are you doing Liberty 6 > Tradition 1, then going into other things like Piety/Commerce? Liberty 3 (Settler) > Tradition 1 > Liberty 6 > Finish Tradition?

If you need trad opener you take it first since it will accelerate the acquisition of the followup policies from Liberty.
I usually start making my settlers before collective rule in that case. Similar to the timing you'd have while playing Tradition.

You do not have the time to finish 2 trees before rationalism. The most you can get is usually 2 or 3 extra policies. I suggest either getting Aristocracy or investing in Patronage/Commerce or Aesthetics for a CV.

Mixing the Tradition opener with Liberty does do some awkward things to the timing, and I haven't figured out the best way to deal with it yet. Acken's suggestion of just going ahead and starting on Settlers before Collective Rule is pretty reasonable.

Another thing I've been experimenting with is putting some money into a Cultural city-state. This can speed up Collective Rule by five or more turns, depending on how early you're able to spend the gold. Deity AI have a lot of cash and caravans, so you can get money pretty quick by selling luxes in peace deals and pillaging stuff.

In general, with Tradition I want to spend my early gold buying a Settler, while with pure Liberty I want to save gold for tile buying. The Trad/Lib mix doesn't need as much help with either these things, so I think you can get away with burning some gold on a CS.

@Acken, you are a terrific player, and I am not, but this seems like a basic math error!

Acken said:

If you need trad opener you take it first since it will accelerate the acquisition of the followup policies from Liberty.

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The Tradition opener decelerates the acquisition of follow-up policies from Liberty. It puts you behind, and only gets worse as the game progresses. Yes, with the Tradition opener, your 2nd and 3rd policy choices come significantly faster than they do without it, but it never makes up for needing an extra policy.

I usually start making my settlers before collective rule in that case.

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Right, because you have delayed Collective Rule 7+ turns by opening Tradition. So now you are making a second sub-optimal choice (full hammer settler) to try and make up for the first sub-optimal choice (pursuing Liberty by opening Tradition).

Manpanzee said:

Acken's suggestion of just going ahead and starting on Settlers before Collective Rule is pretty reasonable.

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I don’t know the best way to play Liberty, but opening Tradition first is clearly not it! The border expansion aspect of the Tradition opener does seem particular valuable for the Liberty player, but why can’t that wait until after Collective Rule or maybe even as a filter between closing out Liberty and opening Rationalism?

I'm well aware of what you describe but let me rephrase to avoid confusion. What I meant by this is that taking the opener early will give you more raw culture overall compared totaking it as your 4th. The finish of Liberty will be faster than by taking it after collective rule and you'll also get faster border sooner. This is why I suggest to take it first if you plan to take it. Of course Collective rule is slowed down however.

Whether it's the best idea or not is up for debate.

Acken said:

What I meant by this is that taking the opener early will give you more raw culture overall compared totaking it as your 4th.

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Is it fair to ballpark this as a 50 turn difference? Obviously by end game, 150 net raw culture is not relevant. This is a simplistic approach, but it argues for 4th v 1st as still being potentially relevant.

The finish of Liberty will be faster than by taking it after collective rule...

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Yes, but the Liberty finisher is even faster if you don’t bother with the Tradition opener at all!

But, the Liberty finisher is not as turn sensitive as the Tradition finisher -- which is why it is worth having this conversation!

...and you'll also get faster border sooner.

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I wish I understood this mechanism better, but my intuition is that this buff could be quite valuable even starting 50 turns later. So while I don’t think even with the 3cpt it justifies a 7+ turn delay to Collective Rule, maybe it is strong enough to justify a delay to the Liberty finisher? Or maybe even with losing a 100 turns on the effect, it is a strong filler policy before unlocking Rationalism?

I have tried following the conventional wisdom and pursued Liberty by opening Tradition. It seems like I still need to buy way more tiles than when playing Tradition. Some of that is having 50% more cities, and some of that the last Liberty expo comes after the last Tradition expo. I just question the efficacy of the Tradition opener on its own merits when you have 6+ cities.

beetle said:

Is it fair to ballpark this as a 50 turn difference? Obviously by end game, 150 net raw culture is not relevant. This is a simplistic approach, but it argues for 4th v 1st as still being potentially relevant.



Yes, but the Liberty finisher is even faster if you don’t bother with the Tradition opener at all!

But, the Liberty finisher is not as turn sensitive as the Tradition finisher -- which is why it is worth having this conversation!



I wish I understood this mechanism better, but my intuition is that this buff could be quite valuable even starting 50 turns later. So while I don’t think even with the 3cpt it justifies a 7+ turn delay to Collective Rule, maybe it is strong enough to justify a delay to the Liberty finisher? Or maybe even with losing a 100 turns on the effect, it is a strong filler policy before unlocking Rationalism?

I have tried following the conventional wisdom and pursued Liberty by opening Tradition. It seems like I still need to buy way more tiles than when playing Tradition. Some of that is having 50% more cities, and some of that the last Liberty expo comes after the last Tradition expo. I just question the efficacy of the Tradition opener on its own merits when you have 6+ cities.

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In my experience, if you're not struggling with slow border expansion, you're not growing fast enough. Of course, I consider that a core game imbalance. (The overly large value of growth & science devalues a lot of buildings, speeds the game up to the point where rush-buying is the only reasonable option, etc. etc.)

If the max theoretical tech rate was slower, IE t90 Education wasn't possible, then you'd have more time for your borders to expand. Caravans and cargo ships have up'd the ante so high though, when it comes to peak growth, that everything is kind of out of balance. (IMHO)

IronfighterXXX said:

Even without ruins double more land from start is without doubt almost always better than +1 sight and cheaper tiles.

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I would argue that on contested water maps, the +1 sight is a large enough advantage to be worthwhile over more borders. American UU is better w/o ruins too IMO, EZ cover 2 meatshields are pretty nice. It's pretty hard to come up with a lot of scenarios where America wins w/o later era starts or cooked maps though.

After hitting Shoshone with a Tradition approach this time, they are definitely a top tier civ. Two pikes held off three invasions, the Songhai being the usual psychotic dickheads like in 99% of my games

I often take the Tradition opener as my 'spare' policy when I finish Liberty before Medieval. When you're going Liberty Domination, the only policy from Tradition that's really handy is the opener. After that, finishing Commerce is the next priority. Patronage opener can also serve well.

On the Shoshone Map, its T163 and I have 4 capitals. I don't think I'm going to break any records, but a sub-T200 finish is certainly possible.

vadalaz said:

Nice. Are you planning to expand more? And if not, do you always play 4 cities in your science games now?

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I used to be follower 5 cities by seeing how easy this fifth city exceeds 5% science penalty, but it's also less gold from lux,happiness problems, delayed national wonders etc...

I'm really not sure what is better - probably it just depends on map (on some maps like Acken's Korea even six can be good).

On this map I don't plan to expand more - gonna invest my gold in growth (maritime CSs) RAs and culture.

beetle said:

I wish I understood this mechanism better, but my intuition is that this buff could be quite valuable even starting 50 turns later. So while I don’t think even with the 3cpt it justifies a 7+ turn delay to Collective Rule, maybe it is strong enough to justify a delay to the Liberty finisher? Or maybe even with losing a 100 turns on the effect, it is a strong filler policy before unlocking Rationalism?

I have tried following the conventional wisdom and pursued Liberty by opening Tradition. It seems like I still need to buy way more tiles than when playing Tradition. Some of that is having 50% more cities, and some of that the last Liberty expo comes after the last Tradition expo. I just question the efficacy of the Tradition opener on its own merits when you have 6+ cities.

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Maybe it's worth delaying as the 4th or 7th policies or not take it at all. I don't know. You're right that it doesn't really matter until you have your cities anyway so it should come around then. However I also know that delaying collective rule by 7 turns is not a big deal either. If you start your first settler at the same time you'll do 7 turns of non collective rule settler building. That's around 3 turns lost.

I've played a few turns more. This time I took scholasticism before rationalism, because I made calculations and has resulted it should be more beneficial (already had 7 CSs allied in which greatly contributed pathfinders by clearing barb camps).