a lightweight discussion of WW2 aerial ops and the like

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Well it might be a great post or not I don't know because it is bit disturbing for me to read (.) (,) between the spaces, why you write that way? I sense you are from Turkey but also in Turkey peoples also don't put spaces before and after nokta, why is that?

Native French speakers seem to do that too, for some reason.
 
Native French speakers seem to do that too, for some reason.

That surprising for me I don't know there another consensus regarding this.

But he might be from French as he don't get use with "Turkce" keyboard I see it as he oftenly type "i" as "ı" which in Turkish keyboard the places of "i" is bit hard u must reach it with your little finger while "ı" is on the "i" places. So it mean he most probably not someone from Turkey :)
 
the Americans are Anglosaxons , they never stray too much from the what the home country does . As such the only reason Americans didn't have a seperate Tank command and had the tanks in Infantry orders of Battle was that Brigadier-General Rockenbach , the commander of wartime Armoured units was not a graduate of West Point . The power of the ring as worn by the graduates of the Academy becomes particularly imposing when one studies the development of American airpower between the Wars . Similarly the tankers though tied to Infantry tried to overcome career questions of the Cavalrymen by proposing a Cavalry tank in 1922 and coming up with the Combat Car in the 1930s . Any infantryman could come across a Combat Car at night and swear to God that it was a tank .

money being sparse the tables of equipment were never lavish and Americans used Mark VIII Internationals until 1940 , when they turned over some 90 to Canadians to be used in training . The International is last variant of the British Heavy -that's until right before and the early years of the WW2 when the trench crosser was upgraded as the TOG , this time with a turret . Though for our purposes it is a sign of how Americans would fight a global war . Using British expertise to harness the vast strenghts of American industry to be assembled in France to save shipping space was the initial plan but the Kaiserschlacht made immediate extreme demands on both Britain and France . Compounded by the failures of US aircraft production hence a bottleneck in engines meant the first two tanks made it to Europe just after the Armistice or so . The programme was otherwise fantastic , production of up to 1200 per month was planned . This easily matches the entire Heavy production by Britain throughout the war .

even when curtailed by the end of the war , hence the need , the American production still surpassed the British effort considering roughly 1400 sets of components for tanks were completed , nearly half of 2950 started and on the assembly-line one way or the other . If you find this as an ample reason to celebrate the powers of the American industry , you are not even there : Since there should also be some twenty-two thousand FT-17s on the line -that compared to some 3000 made in France . My numbers are personal guesses apart from that 23405 tanks in production . And some 960 Renaults and an exact 100 of Internationals were kept and the rest scrapped by the Peace .

there would be a next war ; don't ask why since only thing ı can say on the subject will be that the Allies had spilled too much blood of their own to make worthwhile gains and a new generation had to rise to fight , enabling the enemy -obviously the Germans and their potential to be a dominant power in Eurasian landmass- to recover as well . American approach to give importance to people over equipment as in the grooming of an officer corps to command a mass draft army when there was a war becomes the proper way , nor their attachment of more power to the Cavalry when the only possible threat was a bunch of Mexican "Bandidos" can be faulted . America simply didn't need tanks and we have already seen they had been mentally very busy about them .

the thing with the American way is seeing war as an economic activity . War is an economic activity allright and economic potential does much to decide who wins . But planning for war with so much emphasis on economic prowess saps at the morality , why shirk from a little escapade if you are guaranteed to win no matter what ? Just like a naval superiority "pushed" Britain to be involved in the startup of all kinds of wars , including the one that would bleed it white at Somme and thereabouts American mastery of the finance and industry was allowing them even more leeway in planning for stuff . Said already , Americans are Anglosaxons ...

( a note on where they finally got today : They need no reminders that nothing can oppose , nobody can resist . Perhaps individually . Which leads them to start things they shouldn't ; does the word Hubris explain it ? Tired maybe they are in the Crusades of Dabya and stuck in Obama's Invasion of Syria to declare they have combat teams in Turkey to oversee the proceedings due our South . We are not impressed .

while ı have the reputation let me prove such H-words are not limited to Americanos , by post#66 of this thread edited accordingly .)
 
then perhaps we should discuss the French in this talk about heavies that can win even without even existing , for the French Char2C seems to be the heaviest ever AFV in military service . The Wikipedia page on it is real fun to read , in context of its development . Finest of defence business at work : Goverment provides funds since there is a war going on killing thousands daily - mechanical means of fighting offer a chance of successful conclusion . Industrialists take the money and do nothing , it is unpatriotic in this time of crisis to question business ethics , apart from providing the exalted Goverment members with a percentage , for their private accounts . Tracked , armoured combat vehicles , ooo how funny !

then , somewhat out of the blue appear the British tanks . For however influential Winston Churchill might have been , even -somehow- arranging enough co-operation to start the Great War , the things are not rosy and Mr. Churchill needs something to polish his name . His hopes have been dashed by the unexpected fact that the Kaiser's admirals are very skittish and have been trying to elude this Trafalgar in the North Sea , the Armagedon in battleship grey like the plague . Even the destruction of the German Asiatic Fleet helps not , for it only follows the similar destruction of a British Cruiser force . Even Gallipoli , not his own idea but made possible only because he put his eloquence behind it , has produced more trenches and a few RN battleships under the waves ... People can swing from the lamp-posts for less .

ı have ranted a bit on the unmanliness of tanks in CFC before . The concepts of war in 1910s were the ones of 1810s , modified in the light of weaponry and technological possibilities of the day . ı am some sort of a hamster on a wheel and let me re-itirate the things again . When the range of weapons were low and their rate of fire slow it really helped when one had numbers to make mass assaults on the enemy for close combat . Now the the Brown Bess was the standart British weapon for some two centuries , ı guess it is permissible to mention Fontenebloy or some place ı will never learn to properly spell . In 1745 it appears the British officers decided they didn't have enough numbers and being gentlemen offered their French enemies the hounour of the first shot . Probably at a distance , the French volley was not that effective but the British response delivered closer while the French were reloading must have been ... Not a proof of being a genius , when the musket range was accepted to be something like 80 to 100 meters and totally safe at 200 and more , it was possible make a charge without excessive losses . Concentrating numbers at a decisive spot was all to generalship , it worked . Initially .

as weapon ranges increased , more numbers were simply providing the enemy defence with more targets . In Crimea Russians didn't have much chance to bring their vast armies into contact , when Allied bullets were passing through multiple ranks of close-order Russian infantry . Encouraged by their comparatively better performance when contrasted with the British , France took on another major power and Austrians must have looked like easy . Napoleon , the one , always beat them in addition to the Russians and Napoleon III just had to do it . Vienna lied to the East of Paris , they didn't have a thing that could stand in the way of glorious French Army , which indeed won . Though the butchery was such that the International Red Cross was founded , with provisions that everybody counted , even pesky -real- Orientals would be treated as equals , as human beings .

then came the shock of 1870 . Germans applied the Napoleonic methods to win the long range duel with more artillery in contact , increasing their numbers simply by marching to the sound of cannons while French generals were issuing orders on delayed information ; the Germans even attacked with Cavalry in places and won the "Last Charge" . The attack was still possible , a war of movement still feasible .

the European generals were not exactly fools , especially those on colonial duty . They had first-hand experience of how European firepower made a mockery of courage and a bloody pulp of those who charged or couldn't run away . A straight battle with the Europeans was a bloody affair and it couldn't escape the attention of even those officers with the skimpiest of attention .

remember the white feathers thing in which the English officer refuses to go to Sudan with Kitchener to avenge the Chinese Gordon and his friends give him 3 feather to imply he is chicken ? When ı was studying Hollywood there was this movie critics' programme ı would watch weekly and the one that dealt with the newest rendition started with the hosts sparing no punches on how ridiculous for some very few White men laying waste to a mass of Coloured people in battle with such ease . The movie industry was doing a disservice to history and basic honesty with such perceptions - even assisting the then new Bushist Crusade , justifying it with the minimal casualties the White took fighting the Brown .
 
but it's true , in that particular engagement a "few" Europeans and Egyptians defeated an enemy host with ease and minimal losses , routing some 60 000 Dervishes . By superior firepower and that was hardly unexpected : the only thing that might spoiled the day was the charge of the 21st Lancers and they wouldn't have done it , had they noticed there was a depression between what they were about to charge and them and it was full of Dervishes . Winston Churchill was adamant he survived only because he carried a Mauser pistol and not a sabre .

won't start a curse campaign against Mauser's . There would still have been a Winston Churchill to do it , only his name wouldn't have been Winston Churchill ...

nobody underestimated firepower . It was better delivered if in mass , especially against "savages". After seeing most of his host slain even the most fanatically brave of the enemy would either run or be killed in futile gestures of defiance and courage . That's how bayonet charges got an ever increasing significance in the mind of theorists . When the time of charge came , the firepower would have already torn the enemy apart , in a colonial context the primitives would either have to run or seing the fighting mode had changed would attempt to try their chances in hand to hand to combat . In the second they rarely had luck , for the numbers obviously would be with the Europeans .

even when the enemy had modern firepower the "new" bayonet charge would be useful . Though at first being started when it was clear the enemy was spent , the charge came to signify the enemy was spent even when he wasn't aware of it . Whatever the situation the charge would break the enemy and they would run , breaking their cohesion and so decreasing their firepower by creating an every man for himself situation . In such a pursuit , own firepower would be be much greater in ratio compared to enemy .

and the "old" bayonet charge was much about reloading the muskets issue . At musket ranges one could already be at the throat of the enemy instead of bothering to reload and military must study the old to get an idea on the new . They must be aware of the present , too . Knowing it well the advantage was with the defence -and a good defence would take ages to overcome- militaries of the world as the 20th Century dawned were united in the beautification of the bayonet , silently hoping if it ever came to blows the other side would flinch . And run away from the bayonet charge , for it was known that the charge came only before the total awesome victory and the side receiving the charge was already beaten , right ? The bayonet charge was as much physicological as it was physical .

once there is a conviction , there is also justification . If a guy with a magazine rifle could shoot 5 men down and could re-load to get another 5 , the charge obviously needed to start with 15 so that the last 5 could tear the guy with the magazine rifle to bits and pieces . Plus the charge would look cooler to own side and more dangerous to opposition if it was delivered en masse , like the waves of the sea . Capable of swamping the defence , irregardless of how many men could have got hit .

but there would be casualties , a lot of casualties ? Oh yes . That's why people did plan for short and sharp campaigns to win the war in Napoleonic haste ; before casualty figures reached the public . There is a limit to what people can take , the war had to be conluded before people started doubting . The decisive bayonet charge was to be a once in alifetime affair to conclude the war after the brilliant tactics by the generals had brought the enemy to a spot where very few could have escaped total destruction . The one good decisive battle .

the bayonet charge also suited the mass conscripts armies the-war-between-European-nations demanded . Training inevitably takes time , time Europeans in the Napoleonic war they all planned for wouldn't have . Somebody had to work the fields or sweat in the factories to make the ever expanding wealth of the continent possible , military obligations decreased peoples' potential to make money -especially for others . A bayonet charge , a simple affair if you will , would take the troops to the enemy . Face to face instincts take over if one doesn't know how and the soldiers would have suitable implements at hand . That's why Germans wasted lots of university students in the Kindermort of 1914 . To talk of how useful those people could have been as low level officers (or even as NCOs in technical branches ) in 1915-16 would have been funny for Kaiser's generals who needed to be in Paris next month .

once again , the generals of all nations were not fools , not even 100% bloody butchers . They were aware of the "skirmishers armies" , extented order , advance in rushes , defence in depth . But this requires training , hence time and cost . And personal initiative on part of the troops , which could be detrimental to social order , even to the concept of once in a lifetime bayonet charge .

( if anybody feels this is redundant in a discussion of heavy tanks , we are still on it )
 
the Americans are Anglosaxons ,
Except for the majority of Americans that aren't.


they never stray too much from the what the home country does .

Except the two times we went to war with them, and the times we didn't go to war on their side either immediately (WWI, WWII) or at all (Falklands, etc).

Hmmm you saying the UK is our home country is like me saying Turkey is really a province of the Roman Empire.
 
americans are more German and Irish than they are British , which didn't stop them defeating Germany twice one way or the other .

regarding Falklands one can mention the US carrier that would take over RN duties in the North Atlantic or the thing that they led Argentinians berlieve that they could get away with it , or the Israeli equipment would help them win , if it came to blows . Considering Argentinian Marines invaded the Islands with stun grenades and stuff ...

plus no one is ever supposed to take my stuff seriously .
 
some weeks ago in a TV programme , the hostess -one of the better looking ones- surprised the guest -another blonde , an expert on foreign affairs- by mentioning something the guest "appeared" not to know . ı had an instant "fear" for her -one of the better looking ones and a new mum to boot- for stuff happenz in Turkey , when one crosses people about the glory of this new Turkish foreign policy , despite the slowdown inspired by less then stellar US support the Syria invasion . The subject must be quite unimportant , ı already forgot it whatever it was , apart from the thing that ı had heard it on the news the day before .

last night , her guest was a guy who made his name with conspiracy theories and it seems the surprise has travelled around for he started a conversation on how his detractors wasn't insulting him online tonight , the reason had to be that she "deterred" his enemies . Couldn't see fire in the eyes -and cloaking that comes as a gift or as the result of back-breaking work , hence rare- so he changed into a joke . Can't say it wasn't a mistake to write names on a piece of paper to learn whether they are in cabals , Illuminati or this Tavistock which appears to be the new oogey boogey .

otherwise the gist of part ı watched was on a new form of Caliphate . And ı will have it as a justification to -when ı edit this with a discussion of the Ottoman situation- the theory and planning before the trenches .


edit on Nov 16

with hindsight available only by November 15th it seems there was another probe of sorts on the lines of "Does she know, or does she not?" regarding this Petraus , the CIA Director affair . Somehow the newly elites of my country think Obama is Black , hence he will be assasinated , failing that "there might also have some illicit affairs" on part of the US President . At the time of the TV show ı wasn't aware of these E-mail stuff , hence hindsight and later "reporting" on my part . Apparently the conspiracy guy spent some time on it , am not exactly sure -was watching Samurai Jack cartoons and stuff elsewhere .

don't know where this Obama to go stuff arises , it is maybe he is yet to come to Turkey to "kiss the kaftan ends" of his betters here who got him elected back in 2008 by talking tough to certain denizens of Middle East ... In any case the hostility is like this . Something one must find banal , insane and ridiculous but then it -eventually- got the post for Dabya , the F-102 pilot gaining political credits for his father , the war hero and patriach of a martial family -plus avoding draft and even an F-100 tour in 'Nam . Despite his strenous efforts to prove he was and is dumb , Dabya is actually not , not that at least , considering even this image was raised during the Party nomination back then to cover certain -uhmm- American sensibilities ...

returning to Petraus affair , it has been reported that the FBI agent on the case was also involved with one of the women . This -sort of- proves the resignation of Petraus is not about an extramarital affair but involves something else , possibly the troubles the US or rather the proxies of US have found themselves in . Probably doing it straight would have meant prestige for a third party not mentioned in this post . Experts of the State Channel harped on this a lot , reminding that the CIA has much dirt on everybody including Obama -not surprisingly at all , they being the experts of the State Channel- and Mr.Petraus is interested in politics and he will do extremely well considering he has been in a moral scandal and be so fit for Family Values of the Republicans ; had he simply resigned he would have still been tainted with his connections to Obama Administration . Yes, these are the people who get unfortunates like me but obviously not like me -being real sometime or the other- into spasms of jealousy at their splendid brightness and smartiness : with stuff like Esad will fail so he wants to bring Turkey into war so that we can kill him so that he will have his Alawite rump state -as the Mr.President Zombie- instead of "entire" Syria and this narrative after this two years he has succeeded in blunting covert Turkish moves , neverminding the whole bunch of the West ... Expect the newly elites deciding within the week that actually they hated Mr. Petraus and as such hacked his mail to bring him down !
 
americans are more German and Irish than they are British

When American celebrities are asked for their roots they always answer something like "I am of Brito-Italo-Africano-native American-Indian-Irish-German-Polish-Mexican" descent. And of course Jewish too were in the genealogy tree of each such celebrity. And countless other nationalities.
 
When American celebrities are asked for their roots they always answer something like "I am of Brito-Italo-Africano-native American-Indian-Irish-German-Polish-Mexican" descent. And of course Jewish too were in the genealogy tree of each such celebrity. And countless other nationalities.
Don't be absurd. Nobody would publicly admit to being Polish.
 
the notion that Turkey's turn will also come is getting ever popular , the last one talking was the Maliki of Iraq who warned Ankara not to interfere if it comes to a fight over Kerkük , there was a Turkish Civil War coming anyways . A speech totally rubbished and stuff by the Foreign Ministry , who would rather have the Turkish PM's latest in the foreground . Delivered in heat of Israel's recent thing in Gazze it calls on us , all the Turks , to die like a man if necessary . ı don't feel anybody ever needs his urging on how to die if it comes to that . And doubt he is planning to die either ; this is just another rhetorical device employed to push forward the latest in eye-dazzling mind-numbing brilliance .

courage abroad pays dividends in internal affairs . The Gazze thing has been standart , Palestine "provides" even more examples to the Western media why it is not worthy of equal treatment , Israel "provides" even more examples to the Eastern media on why they should be hated even more . Even the TV images are the same kind . Of a sorts , people crowding around a bombed household as per vultures to parade dead babies on TV -as if TV audiences actually cared- rushed forward to grab one as soon as a little inert form came out , but the guy carrying the dead to the ambulance was bigger .

and the source of courage was sort of demonstrated as well . Egyptian success in defying the Zionists and bringing about a cease-fire has been crowned by Mursi getting even more authority at home -to protests and clashes which might have been harder if there wasn't a crisis right on the door-step ; while the attempts to abolish a very first reform of Atatürk that banned sects to own buildings as centers of meeting died a silent death , only because the West shunned Turkey's cries of injustice and whatever comes to mind and nobody mentioned Turks in the ceasefire ...

while going on it was an usual demonstration on the use of invectives along with obvious truths by the PM , on how the UN is worthless when it comes to the sufferings of especially Muslims , on how the Security Council serves the interests of their own alone and so on , creating a suitable platform for others to come forward and hint the obvious .

but am r16 and my thing has to be convulated ... A long way to the obvious ...

ı have never claimed to be an astute observer of the scenery and the only way ı learned on why people were burning to re-construct an Artillery Corps Barracks in the city center of Istanbul was reading the newspapers . It turns out this was the place where the March 31st Uprising of 1909 against the Ittihad ve Terakki started . Do not expect to see the Military allowed to be around , even in countries with kinda 100% democratic militaries , the defence installations are moved out of cities . No , they will build an ice-skating ring there inside the barracks and the journalists do not shy of reminding the Turkish word to skating denotes the action of the active partner in a sexual intercourse in current street-slang .

the architects of the Counter-Revolution seem to forget the popularity of the Ottoman Empire stemmed from the fact that they were Turks and not from their status as the ranking Islamic power at times with a global reach of sorts . ı expect it to given to Nationalist mythology and stuff but in the eyes of many in the past Turks were an outnumbered bunch that would take over a place and let the locals "be" , usually better than they were before . Something that calls for tact and justice .

[this post is a biased examination of current affairs , here only to explain the exasperation at the lack of examination of the past .]
 
when ı was a museum guide ı had raised a standart laughter when ı had opinionated the Indian Sub-continent was a place where Turks were actually liked -on par with Bosnia- because before we came in the shape of Islamic conquerors many people were worse than dirt in the city dump or whatever . Treating people as equals , giving the clearence to become one of "us" or anything else they wanted to be , especially avoiding the forms of assimilation is not a Turkish invention or an unique trait but it worked where it worked .

the occasion was a Bangladeshi family , coming in late afternoon and spending quite a time . The guy knew Turks would keep the museum open past the closing hour , some 10 people keeping unpaid schedule for just a little longer because his wife -you know- had to go . Even for people as brown as he , his wife and two sons were . Even the understanding that came to the nightguard who had just barred them from going upstairs ( to the restroom his wife had previously spotted ) after the lights were turned off and the guard was required to do the very thing he had done . CFC members might remember ı was the only "working in the museum" one with basic English language skills .

they left anyways . Probably because they were also asked by some competition officials - the one the museum was in- to check whether we were some racist pigs when it really came to that . We had very few foreigners when ı was there and ı kinda could smell those who were checking on us . It was totally obvious many of the times like this girl who wanted to see the Conference Room , locked at the time and could school children study and play there ? As mentioned ı was the only one that could talk to foreigners ( however miserably ) and by the time ı was summoned two floors up , she was already texting in her very expensive looking cell-phone . After a regular warning on how people were thrown out of moving trains in muggings and wasn't it the same in London , she said she was from York actually . And yes , ı did get the standart laughter out of her with my pronounciation of "a valid reason" . No trouble at all , ı have never succedeed in differentiating between ship and sheep , just as an example ...

so , with such limited exposure to anything foreign what gives me the right to doubt foreign policy of this new Turkey ? The fact that ı am an idiot perhaps ? ı have spent years ranting on the "German in danger" thing , the Consular official who was delayed en route while Panther , the German gunboat that had sailed from the Caribbean to save him from the terrorizing savage locals waited dejectedly at some forsaken Moroccan port for days . ı ranting without even knowing why . Though last month ı heard it on the TV that Esad had started heavily subsidizing the merchant classes right at the time he was accepting to be friends with Turkey back in early 2000s . Might explain why a Turkish journalist held for 3 months in Syria was terribly beaten up in a city he had arrived to save from tyranny , by the civilians ; though his Lebanese colleague hasn't been released yet and he might as well be playing a game .

turks save people in distress , they don't create strife to save people from the exact same trouble . Turks don't cry on cue , for the world expects somebody to die sometime soon if Turkish leadership can't avoid a tear or two . Everybody is human in the end , made of flesh and bone ( not steel ) and the world always offers too much in the way of suffering to cope indefinitely . Turks don't do confrontation states , like some Arabian countries to talk without a stop on how they will drive the Zionists to the sea and watch Israelis roll over like clockwork . Avoiding talk of things one will not do is a good way of protecting credibility . Unlike many in Turkey , Arabs are not some dumb bunch of people who would readily ignore the trade between Turkey and Israel is reported to have gone up , after the Mavi Marmara affair .

returning to Iraq , it seems likely that Baghdad will have a fight and experts are already reminding N.Iraq will pump out some 150 billion US$ worth of oil and gas in the coming decade and one must protect that . Ai , the experts are hereby cleared to go and fight for Barzani on their own at 150 cents per day . Let them risk something personal ...

this is talk of traitorous cowardice but can it be helped ? Hundreds of seperatists were on hunger strike which ended immediately when the demands of the dear seperatist leader was met . For those who are not aware he "is" under lock in some island prison since 1999 . The thing in the Middle East : The Kurds are to have a state by American design , our bright fellows can not dare oppose and they are willing partners in the re-drawing of borders where we will lose half the country - to be "compensated" at the expense of the likes of Esad . What passes of spectacular success is the taming of the Turk , as far as the notion goes and the claimed coming to a common ground between the peoples of Anatolia is a simple cult of leadership where one dude can sway all opposition . For those in the East . For those in the West we hear one single talk of bringing back Capital Punishment solved the crisis and the dear seperatist leader is such a kitty ...

[this post is a biased examination of current affairs , here only to explain the exasperation at the lack of examination of the past .]
 
incidentally this death sentence talk was also about getting a negative reaction from the EU so that they would let Ankara free of obligations . For the bright future . Where we , with whole hearted support of the Islamic countries establish a new Caliphate on the lines of the UN Security council . Not the old dynastic version where one family gets to rule and divide the followers on personal politics . 5 big members take turns at the top and considering the clout of Muslims in the world put things right ...

the funny thing starts from the marketing of the concept to Turks . We have already seen the power of Kemal is no more , he is nothing but a false god , a pharoah and so on . But wait , he is supposed to have foreseen the end of Colonialism and the independence of all those Islamic countries and he has prepared the concept where we the secular heirs to the Ottomans will turn people to us once again . But the evil military after the 1980 coup , being bought by America has buried those 400 pages of handwritten notes on this noble endavour . The militarist explanation is there is no such thing and all Kemal wrote was what he did to a visiting female French journalist and the guy who pushes the "Secular Caliphate" always manages to raise a chuckle by his mention of the Kamasutra which is reported to be less that a hundred ...

the guy mentioned above in post# ... as the conspiracy expert goes onto shoot himself in the foot by mentioning he had a meeting with people from MI 6 on November 6th, 2006 and they mentioned they wanted to see a Caliphate in Turkey and he started the thing by a newspaper article 4 days later . Doesn't that make him a British asset ? Even if he reports the British form was the old school dynastic thing ? Though the intention has been observed elsewhere , as mentioned .

oh , if the Saudis want the Caliphate let them come and take it on their own . Although like totally pointless anyhow , there will be no signing off anything . Turkish bravery knows no bounds recently , what is the point of reclame on Kemal's part in this age ? Today it is time to belittle the early Republic for it can never match the achievements of the new and people are actually talking in terms of having bigger mosques than the ones the Sultans had , for the new Turkey is even bigger than the Ottomans . Sure , sure ... West got wind of that and the one the PM wants to have built in Bosphorus has been modified to be an equivalent of Sultanahmet , the 6 minaret one in Istanbul ... So ? Yes , a balance returns and the PM lambasts the producers of a TV series about the Sultans and their life in the Harem with a declaration that they go everywhere Ottomans went .

Even in the Ottomans' the Caliphate was basically mythical as immediately proven by the declaration of Cihad in 1914 . Which saw nobody rushing to Ottoman colours ; to fight for the greater glory of the Kaiser . There is nothing new under the sun , the saying goes . The idea that a loud talking Turkey will impress people to rule anything around because the target audience is an assembly of morons is easily matched by the experience of a century ago . It will go pear shaped as soon there is real opposition or that assembly of morons is allowed an opinion . Berlin's ideas on stealing the Ottoman lands from the Turks , by brave leadership that would lead us to greatness once again though happened almost incredibly perfectly ...

those who watch the Turkish scenery certainly will not be baffled by the new popularity of Enver -for Mustafa Kemal needs a superior in both the military and Ittihad so that this revoltingly attitude against the new Turkey can be untangled by diminishing of the Blond Pasha , for he must have done only what he was told . And the new Turkey can be happy ever-after ... Can never convince Ittihad doesn't live here ...

[this post is a biased examination of current affairs , here only to explain the exasperation at the lack of examination of the past .]
 
we have seen the urgency in the war theory of the day , in the haphazard r16 way . An urgency to mass and negate the advantages of the defence by superior numbers , a mental victory to win the campaign after one decisive battle . Defence was superior , so superior that it couldn't be defeated unless caught pants down , and the attack could fail to have enough men and resources to strike again if the initial engaments did not result in a clear-cut victory . This urgency contributed much to foreign policies of the late 19th-early 20th centuries , as if there was any further need to poison the relationships .

war became the single concern of the leading countries of the planet , far more than today's environment . For having superior numbers of men and equipment defined victory , leading to all kinds of combinations of states against each other that eventually formed a solid cynicism in those who took part in the proceedings ; welling up to a point of no return by 1914 . Rapid technological advances seemed to remove the need for the balance of the old strategic intuition and each new capability brought forth a rush of brilliant officers to cut the Gordion's Knot with an immediate and swift attack on the enemy -whomever that might be- before the said enemy could acquire the same invention .

the near miracle of the economic boom of the times with an unbroken time of peace in Europe , the perceptible increase in respect to the notion of human being and stuff , the optimism in a better future was marred by the massive insecurity in the military thinking . There would be a war , as there has always been , the war could only be won by a decisive attack and anything that didn't serve the attack was wrong . Which quickly seeped back into all facets of life , in the end making the war that everybody said would happen , yes that war , inevitable .

ı have never been easy with real history but lots of books say the Modern Europe started with Bismarck and 1871 . Certainly much ink has been devoted his diplomatic moves to isolate France and a "natural" desire for a war of revenge . To the extent that his dismissal by Wilhelm II gets to be interpreted as the very first step to on the road to the Great War .

yes and no .

creating "his" Reich with war and coercion he was hardly an apostatle of peace . His attempts for the continued loneliness of France was also a move of preservation in that the recent feat of German arms was not exactly a piece of cake and the dice might well roll the other way in a next war . Though the thing is he was one of last of the "Romans" , a Continental wary of the ever burgeoning sea trade of the Anglosaxons and the wealth derived from it , giving the British and American "people" leverage to do more in their kinda new ways of doing things , infuencing events and so on .

as such he was certainly aware of how Rome handled its enemies . Decide who is the biggest threat in any given area , to be called A for the purposes of this discussion . Promptly strike a deal with B , who came 2nd in the analysis and attrite A to the point that B becomes a larger threat . Immediately ditch the deal and ally with A against B . As A and B bear the brunt of the fighting in the long run they will whittle away to nothing .

how the "Romans" of Germany had that burned into themselves is directly related to us , Ottomans back in the day . The Sultan , impressed by the achievements of Frederick the Great , sent a diplomatic mission to learn how it was done . Though the essence was Sultan asked for 3 astrologers aka fortune tellers and stuff ... Frederick had to explain it was a strong army and a full treasury ... Allies of Britain in a titanic struggle against France , Austria and Russia and holding to dear life by the proverbial thread and watching London gaining India and a whole continent in the Americas , 'cause France was entangled somewhere else was discussed and agreed upon as a lesson to be remembered. After the laughter at us subsided ...

bismarck was aware that Germany was left alone to engage France in a battle of equals because London was punishing Paris for the Suez Canal and the victory established Germany as the A in Europe . His diplomacy , for which he is much celebrated is not isolating France , but rather denying a B to Britain as an ally .
 
and Wilhelm II messed it up ? His problem was not that he was an egoistical fool that drew England's ire and eventual emnity with his childish desire to have battleships ; made worse by his lack of tact . Rather he was a British imperialist made from the finest cloth possible , even better the British imperialists themselves . His cousin ( the King in London ) would keep the Americans at bay , while he would stop the Russians and possibly drive them back to Asia one day , even if Nicky in Moscow was also a cousin . ı have checked de Tocquville entry in Wikipedia a few times but ı never get much from it .

( stoopid Britishers chose to cultivate Americans instead of sharing the world with Berlin , but that's sometime in the future in this discussion so far ... )

the German Battleship Fleet , the supposed reason for the deterioration of the relationship between the two countries was extra insurance in this blossoming Imperial co-operation Wilhelm supposed to exist - and bragged about ceaselessly to Franz Joseph , the last of the Romans . Apart from faciliating a kinda modest colonial empire , it would be right there when the situation forced London to talk in measured tones lest "popular support" be lost with alienation of American public opinion .

the increasing tensions , which Berlin supposed to be easily over-paintable with Tirpitz cheerily underlining that his Fleet was not to be fightable in any war against Britain , the "Riziko" (that Admiral Fisher could attempt a Nelsonian move to destroy the German Navy in a pre-emptive strike) everlasting must have been doubly interesting to Franz Joseph . In light of the economic measures taken by the Germans to hurt Austria-Hungary . This is something ı first heard about in CFC . Such moves by ethnical brothers against a common threat -"posed" by the Slavic hordes in this case- are always interesting ...


my justification -apart from ı am an idiot and that's justification enough- has been that history has to be studied to avoid pitfalls and not getting to fall in them again and again . The famed kangoroo court in Turkey is about to declare the results this week , mixing the guilty and the innocent as the take-over of the country by a new brand of friends of the West seems complete . The tale of Austria-Hungary seems sadly relevant in this juncture when the elites of this country seem so close to the war they need . To get over the fact they betrayed the military / the former elites , the newbies need something more topical , more newsworthy and despite the recent heated accusations of the West that Esad is about poison people with mass destruction weapons the glorious conquest of Syria has been delayed enough to make a mark in Turkish public opinion . Everybody will remember the goverment entered this "crusade" on the suggestions that we were to be equals with the US in "empiring" the Middle East . The democracy needed to make us the soft power that would inspire the oppressed peoples of the Middle East is hardly there , Ankara successfully imparting all kinds of centrifugal forces to the country with half hearted , "obviously" fake moves . Just like Wilhelm II failed to see his Germany was the A , confident that he was co-operating with Britain against London's traditional enemies , that this was pure logic , that this would last , elites of my country are hungry ...
 
history can be spectacular , and ain't it already history that some 4 years ago America was on the brink of disaster , of a size that could destroy the world , a debt of 15 trillion dollars that couldn't be sustained ? ı hear it's now 16 . There is nothing to governing when somebody else pays . Destruction comes on the moment people notice it is them to foot the bill . And future generations that will build real starships will be mocking us like hell if somebody notices Wilhelm was as Muslim as Barack Hussein is and this is still a selling point in a certain country !

talking of starships -since ı am supposed to lighten up time to time- there really appears to be a campaign ( currently with some 12000 signatures ) aimed at the White House to build an actual Death Star with a steel requirement that would keep jobs in the industry for the next 800,000 years . For me , it is about the end of the year when ı am traditionally supposed to declare the most satisfying what if / conjectural engineering project of the year : the Incom 65 still rules for the 5 or 6th consecutive year , with overall TIE programme following closely . But this year it was a sudden impulse , a trick of the muse that ı came up with a backdating of the basic 1701 design along the lines of the destroyers with a single warp nacelle . It is being found cute by a few peers , suitable for early Solar System stuff ...

gives a relief from pointless grieving about the designs of people on this or that . This transformation of my country was propelled with tales of neo-cons were lunatics who wanted to bring God down to Earth by starting a global devastation and Iraq 2003 was the clearest sign of it . Read : don't mess with 'em . ı certainly don't want to start another meme -on the strength of a single thread which clearly took aim at my forum idiotness- that American Right takes the Bible so literally that they are ready to destroy the planet to get a free update ; for "the Meek shall inherit the world", considering the American Right is hardly weak . How long the can the Mighty Capitalism sell two seats to the Moon for a billion and a half afterall ?

returning to subject , this necessity of avoiding Western designs easily matches the Great Power status of the Colonalists at 1890-1910s and the neo-Ittihadists of Turkey still think the term neo-Ittihadist defines a Left-of-Center admirer of coups and Kemal , the pharoah of a now gone past . We hear the Ittihad ve Terakki was made of people raised to be enemies of Ottomans from their childhood , will the future generations think likewise for the neo-Ittihadists ? They define themselves as democrats and Muslims , implying the rest is of neither and certainly unfit to have an opinion . The Western Media no longer marks the PM and the party , even the congregation as an item that influences the world and every expert is on the air that the new Turkey is now mature , will not talk nonsense anymore . As if every expert was not talking the stuff .

sadly of today's posts only this one contains jokes and obviously the said last one is also biased in an obvious way . For my country runs on fumes and a moment will come that arresting people is no longer enough . Seems impossible to far too many . The advocate of the secular Caliphate mentioned a few times in this thread was on a few nights back where he has become a staple and shouting at her that those who poisoned Turgut Özal -the poisoned president who attempted to make this exact new Turkey 20 years ago- should be arrested . Web search suggests she would be like 15 at the time ... And guess what , despite the explosive coverage it turns out the State -at the moment- thinks the poison in his body is of agricultural variety -from unwashed vegetables and so on ... America was busy teaching Barzani that he was no longer supposed to be respectful to Turkish Captains / Majors at border outposts , no competition at playing the Kurdish card was needed and Özal had lost the touch . The touch of looking people in the eye and convincing pals at the States that anti-American gullibility had been served its lesson once again ... He shouldn't have looked the other way at the famous murders of the year anyhow . Am still on track for this kinda short examination of how our "effective" Islamization of the 1890s added some impetus to the war coming .
 
as the Cult of Offensive grew ever stronger roots , the Ottoman Empire was onto its final chapter . Ruled by Abdülhamit , liked or riled to extremes in Turkey according to one's own set of political beliefs . The destructive wars of Succession between the "Princes" in the early Ottoman period had seen various palliatives tested . It was legal for and expected of a new Sultan to kill his brothers . After the sad example of a few gone nuts , waiting day and night for the executioners and not so few incidents of small scale genocides this was finally amended to crown the oldest in line after the ruling Sultan died . Abdülhamid II was in the middle of his brothers and of no political aspirations . His namesake , Abdülhamid I had been crowned at the age of 49 after spending 43 years "jailed" in the Palace . To while away the time , waiting for something that might never happen takes lots of concentration : the Ottoman "Princes" were encouraged to take handycrafts . Abdülhamit was a gifted woodworker , and also a drunkard . Finally , one day on the way back home , erm , Palace the horses bolted and he had hold on for dear life . Cured him out of the booze for good ...

1870-1 had seen Prussians flooring France for the duration . The balance of power seemed skewed enough for Russians to test the long standing English policy of propping Ottomans up and undo 1856 . A Turkish "victory" in a war started after Moscow asked priviliges for Minorities and our reward for winning was being forced to give even more than the demands the Russians had gone to war for . Their devastating campaign against us gets to be reported widely as the reason why London saw the inevitable and decided to partake in the reduction of the Ottoman Empire to salvage as much as possible . To the extent that any history book says so . That we were kept as a bulwark against the Russian expansion to warm ports and '77 proved we were unsustainable . Not so ...

india widely acknowledged to be the Jewel of the Crown , the centerpiece of British thinking and scheming , something that defined their success and power at the same time . As such any threat to this would have been energitically countered . The entire Great Game played for this purpose alone , since only Russia could enroach on India without meddling with the Royal Navy on the way first -even if the land to be covered before reaching the Subcontinent as a credible military power would boggle the mind in the day ...

the curse of the Suez Canal for the Ottomans was that the months it cut from the voyage to and from India to Europe . The British could speedily reinforce any places that were "threatened" , something that negated the need for continued Ottoman existance . Religious animosities could be satisfied and far more reliable "partners" could be found after the decay of centuries were removed in one typically bold European stroke . Even the initial justification for the scheme , that France could take advantage of inner lines to interdict traffic between the UK and India and inflame the Middle East in the process was crushed by Teoutonic efficiency , the advantages of owning the Canal by proxies , failing that by true British power was obvious . Instead of 1877 clearing the way for decisive emnity against Porte and the obvious need for protecting the Canal from Russians who would want to get out of the Med , too , the Canal made it certain that it would be saved "in the nick of time" .

oh yes , there are things ı don't blame the Anglosaxons for .

like having a heart of sorts and not burning the steam plants that dug and instead watch the Arab workforce die like flies . It would have made a mockery of the barge proposal which Sokullu had buried with the utterly more diffficult Don to Caspian Canal . Even if we are a 20th Century construct , we are to respect history with successes and failures , to a reasonable degree .

today's posts certainly don't infer any acceptance of anything in anyway .
 
so when was it ? When Britain signed the death warrant of the Ottoman Empire ? It was a couple of months after a night when the associates of Major (?) Nolan drank themselves to a stupor and got into this argument with Infantry officers about the relative merits of their service branches . Nolan was in the Cavalry in India and had himself seconded to Crimea where he died in the Charge of the Light Brigade . Finally one of the guys had had enough and decided to test whether the opposing officers were as gifted as they claimed to be . Relevant to a random gibberish kind of thread which currently discusses technology , firepower and consequences , the troops had just received new rifles that needed greasing bullets for optimum performance . Yes , intentionally , though in the heat of the moment . Yes , pigoil to Muslims , cow to Hindus ...

and yes , we were blamed for it . As if anything else could have happened . With much thought on what we , Ottomans could have done if we were anywhere near Europeans with regards to faculties of thinking ; translated to English if we had brains to speak of ... The response , even if we had nothing to do with the mutual butchery of 1858 was though delayed . The American Civil War offered risks and prospects of its own followed by Prussia's rise and happy destruction of France for a while . And by then a new generation was at the helm , who naturally knew it better than their fathers .

ottomans didn't exactly help either . Certainly not uniquely in the matter , there was a misjudgement of the Britain's special position vis a vis Maritime Power Projection ; the belief was a strong Navy would be a solution to any ills . Reinforced by the recent experience of Japan that had to give up "all" in face of a visit by a Naval Squadron , the posture had got Istanbul in assembling the "third" largest fleet in the world . A hodge podge collection of already obsolescent vessels , the Ottoman Navy of the time certainly did much to bankrupt the country . It also led to Abdülhamit ...
 
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