Art vs. Artifacts: can one be used exclusively?

Hey all, I'm in the middle of my first BNW game. Really fun, enjoying the heck out it. It's going slowly, as I'm a huge/marathon kinda player; I haven't yet unlocked Archaeology, but I'm looking ahead and I have some questions about art vs. artifacts.

1. Many of the Great Works buildings have slots for art or artifacts. Is there any disadvantage to relying heavily, or even exclusively, on one kind of Work versus the other? Say, populating all such buildings with artifacts instead of art, or vice-versa? I'm aware of course of the theme bonuses, but I don't yet know the nuances of the available themes. Do some of the bonuses require mixtures of forms, like art and artifacts together, or can the themes be satisfied by all of one or the other? (Provided the other criteria are satisfied, of course, re: eras and civilizations and all that.)

2. When Archaeology becomes available and antiquity sites are generated, just how numerous are the sites? Does the game create a multitude of them, so that they're pretty much in everyone's backyards, or are they rare and hard to find? (I know that they are located where ancient battles and settlements used to be, but I'm guessing only 1 out of every X such locations result in antiquity sites. I guess I'm asking what the value of that X is, roughly.)

These questions kind of dovetail, and you can probably see what I'm getting at. If themes can be achieved by artifacts alone, AND if artifacts are plentiful on the ground, it seems a shame to use Great Artists to generate great works of art when they can be used for golden ages instead.

Any insights here? Thanks!

!. As far as I know, only the Louvre requires both art and artifacts. Most of the time artifacts seem to be preferable - they give a slight culture boost by era (older ones are +3 culture +2 tourism in the later game) which artworks don't seem to, and filling up on artifacts means you can use Artists for Golden Ages instead. On the other hand, you're competing with the AI for artifacts and you'll want artworks early in the game to add to the Palace and possibly the Hermitage.

2. It does seem to depend a lot on early-game activities - on maps of the same size I've had as few as 11 and as many as 30. Since AIs tend to be less aggressive, other than barbarians, unless you're actively aggressive yourself it will probably be towards the lower end of the scale. And you probably want to be aggressive - otherwise most dig sites will spawn on former ancient ruins and barbarian camps, and the latter at least will rarely be inside your borders. Where available, landmarks are better than artifacts because they generate tourism with both hotels and airports, but so far I've never had more than two within my borders.

One downside is that archaeologists are quite slow to produce, and presumably as a result of a bug you don't seem able to buy them with gold.

1. From a pure output perspective, artifacts are functionally the same as great works. They produce 2 culture and 2 tourism. As for theming, from what I've seen, most wonders ask for actual great works to get the theming bonus, except for the Louvre which asks for two great works and two artifacts (all of different civilizations and different eras). The Museum building, however, will use either artifacts or great works for its theming. Off the top of my head I can't think of other wonders that use artifacts for theming.

2. Antiquity sites, from what I've seen, are fairly common, and if you're the first to get to Archaeology you should have no problem finding a bunch of artifacts. I can't yet say how quick the AI is to get to them however...

Ultimately, if you put either side by side, the great works are more useful if you're really after a cultural victory, since the theming bonus doesn't actually get you culture, just Tourism (correct me if I'm wrong). HOWEVER, remember that you can get Great Works much earlier than artifacts, and that they're an important source of culture since in BNW the culture buildings are a lot less useful when empty.

Hope that helps!

PhilBowles said:

One downside is that archaeologists are quite slow to produce, and presumably as a result of a bug you don't seem able to buy them with gold.

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I think in the description for the archaeologist it explicitly says "a special subset of the worker unit which cannot be bought with gold". For whatever reason, the inability to rush-buy archaeologists was intentional. Maybe this was to keep each AI from buying 20+ archaeologists and snapping up all the artifacts.

Biologist said:

I think in the description for the archaeologist it explicitly says "a special subset of the worker unit which cannot be bought with gold". For whatever reason, the inability to rush-buy archaeologists was intentional. Maybe this was to keep each AI from buying 20+ archaeologists and snapping up all the artifacts.

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Doesn't seem to work that way, since the AI archaeologist-spams. Being unable to buy them simply makes the AI more likely to grab the artifacts before mine complete...

PhilBowles said:

Doesn't seem to work that way, since the AI archaeologist-spams. Being unable to buy them simply makes the AI more likely to grab the artifacts before mine complete...

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What speed are you playing on, and what is your average build time to archaeologists? I seem to get them done in 4-7 turns in my most developed cities.

My guess is that it prevents one from spamming them. Archaeology has to be expensive so it won't completely eclipse great works in investment/return ratio.

About artifacts: If you manage place same artifact(like 2 beads or 2 amulets) from same era, it gives 4 theming bonus, same as Louvre's.

Lochlann said:

Hey all, I'm in the middle of my first BNW game. Really fun, enjoying the heck out it. It's going slowly, as I'm a huge/marathon kinda player; I haven't yet unlocked Archaeology, but I'm looking ahead and I have some questions about art vs. artifacts.

1. Many of the Great Works buildings have slots for art or artifacts. Is there any disadvantage to relying heavily, or even exclusively, on one kind of Work versus the other? Say, populating all such buildings with artifacts instead of art, or vice-versa? I'm aware of course of the theme bonuses, but I don't yet know the nuances of the available themes. Do some of the bonuses require mixtures of forms, like art and artifacts together, or can the themes be satisfied by all of one or the other? (Provided the other criteria are satisfied, of course, re: eras and civilizations and all that.)

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Double-check the theming bonus. If it allows artifacts, go for it. However, some of the buildings specifically want art. And yes, the Louvre has four slots for its theme: two must be art, two must be artifact, plus each of the four has to be from different ages and civilizations. It's a tricky one to fill.

2. When Archaeology becomes available and antiquity sites are generated, just how numerous are the sites? Does the game create a multitude of them, so that they're pretty much in everyone's backyards, or are they rare and hard to find? (I know that they are located where ancient battles and settlements used to be, but I'm guessing only 1 out of every X such locations result in antiquity sites. I guess I'm asking what the value of that X is, roughly.)

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There's a set number of sites depending on the size of your map. Their distribution seems to be focused around early-game actions (battles, goodie hut ruins sites, cities that were razed, etc.).

Plus, a small number of the Antiquity sites are hidden, meaning you cannot see them until you complete the Exploration social policy track.

Thanks for the replies, all. I forgot to mention that obviously being able to pass up a Great Work of Art under the assumption of securing Artifacts in the future is a luxury, but that's more or less the situation I'm in: comfortably in the lead on my continent in all areas of gameplay.

I think I may have been mistaken about the nature of antiquity sites, though. I was under the impression that it was focused largely on barbarian-vs.-Civ encounters. Like, barbarian encampments that were captured by players, goodie huts, etc. I didn't even consider the possibility that it might include, much less focus on, Civ-vs.-Civ battles and whatnot. (In retrospect, of course this makes a lot more sense. :/ Oy.) To say that I have been passive thus far in the game would be a huge understatement, so the sites might be fewer in number than I've been counting on. But then again, I'm next to Attila, who has been anything but passive yet has wisely avoided me, and from whom I may be able to grab some sites. Especially in the derelict territory of his former victims. Hmm. Guess I'll find out!

(This is the aspect of the expansion I've been most looking forward to. I'm not specifically trying to win via Tourism; I'm just looking forward to the hunting and collecting.)

Oh also, while I'm on the topic: is there any way to "destroy", or otherwise get rid of, a Great Work? Say I load up to the brim on Artifacts but then discover that I want some Art, and I can't find anyone willing to trade me Art for an Artifact; is there any way to remove an Artifact--from play, I mean, not from a specific building--and clear out space for a piece of Art?

Lochlann said:

Oh also, while I'm on the topic: is there any way to "destroy", or otherwise get rid of, a Great Work? Say I load up to the brim on Artifacts but then discover that I want some Art, and I can't find anyone willing to trade me Art for an Artifact; is there any way to remove an Artifact--from play, I mean, not from a specific building--and clear out space for a piece of Art?

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Not to my knowledge. You heathen.

Figures.

Also, oops, you can't trade one kind of Great Work for another kind. Found that out ahead of time, thankfully, by examining the trade screen. That puts a damper on things, and seems kind of arbitrary. Unless the point is to avoid "cheap specialization" of the kind I'm describing, which would otherwise allow, say, artifact-hunter players to compete in the Great Works game without producing any Works themselves.

You can trade artifacts for art, can you not?

And yes, I am a bit disappointed about the trading menu. I wished one could trade works in the diplo screen, for gold, resources or other services. Demand them as a part of a peace settlement, even.

I haven't seen an AI archeologist yet. They never figured that out in my game

VainoValkea said:

You can trade artifacts for art, can you not?

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I haven't tried it, but according to the swap screen, you can't. It's pretty explicit: "X may only be swapped for another X", for each of the medium types (including artifacts and art).

And yes, I am a bit disappointed about the trading menu. I wished one could trade works in the diplo screen, for gold, resources or other services. Demand them as a part of a peace settlement, even.

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I agree.

Completely agree. Buying & selling great works, or even ransoming them, would be awesome to have on the Trade screen.

I guess we'll have to keep whining about it so they'll feature it in the next expansion pack!