BNW Deity Tier List

GoStu said:

New topic: why is Persia so high? As far as I know they don't have a start bias worth a damn (don't think they're a desert Civ, I seem to get Plains with them). I could see that rushing with Immortals in a Golden Age is strong, but they shouldn't rate above Assyria for Deity play; Assyria is both more dangerous and gains more from the tactic.

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Persia is a beastly domination civ.

Persia’s UA + UB approximately replicates Universal Suffrage from the Freedom Ideology. This means that Persia can access one of the most important aspects of Freedom (50+ turn GA from timed natural GA and stockpiled Artists) without actually adopting Freedom. The main bummer with the usual 50+ GA strat is that you can’t easily combine the absurd income with a cost efficiency policy since those are from other Ideologies. But obviously, Persia does not face this problem. Ideally you will use the ~permanent GA and Mobilization (Autocracy) to purchase hordes of units in a city where you have stacked Barracks/Armory/Base/BGate/HEpic, not to mention Total War, Clauswitz, and +10%/+1 movement because Persia. Combine with (rail)road to the front line for best results.

Moves/turn is everything. That's why Persia is so good.

I actually feel like Persia should be higher rated. They probably have one of the best UAs in the game: Not only do they get to enjoy the economic, production and cultural bonuses of a GA for 50% longer, they're also much more effective at combat. Their units cover more ground, they have better mobility for tactical maneuvers, and they're also respectably stronger in combat. Immortals are also a great UU; +10HP healed per turn is HUGE, especially if they have March, and the promotion stays upon upgrade as well. Persian Immortals or Pikemen or even Lancers in a GA can be quite deadly against any foe.
There's also the "Forever Golden" strategy to give an essentially limitless Golden Age if you build Chichen Itza, the Taj Mahal, take Representation and use Great Artists, all one after the other, providing a good way to clear what's left of the world late game. For more info see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=437142.
I forgot to mention Satrap's Court, while not the most powerful of the Uniques, it gives a bit of gold plus a nice happiness boost, meaning you can build this instead of a Colosseum or Zoo and benefit considerably more.

Also, what's with Ethiopia's very high placement? Sure they have a significant combat bonus vs larger civs, but that's not really suited to domination since you acquire more cities as you conquer--same with the UU. So they have good defense, but other than that? Well of course the Stele's a great building, but you need many cities to make use of it which reduces the effectiveness of the UA and UU. I wouldn't dispute that they're a good civ, but I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact they're ranked higher than Persia.

Zulus--underrated IMO. To me, they're the most deadly warmongers in the game. Any of their three uniques ALONE would be a formidable force to go up against, but all three together? They can get really insane. First, the UA (actually hard to do them 1 at a time because they synergize so well): Faster promotions means stronger units. Also, reduced maintencance means they can field a larger army. So they have a larger-than-average army of better-than-average units, already decent. The barracks replacement: free promotion with +1 movement, flanking bonuses and defense against ranged attacks, and unlocks 2 more which give combat bonus as well as flanking and ranged defense. The +1 movement is the best part, making them like Persia during a Golden age. The flanking bonus is especially good because a) more mobility means more opportunity to flank your enemies and b) fielding a larger army means a greater chance to crowd your enemies and take advantage of those huge flanking modifiers. Last, defense against ranged means they can take cities more easily with less ranged/siege support. Note that access to more unique promos works with their UA because they can pick up those once they've got the key ones rather than quickly run out of good ones due to their accelerated leveling.
And then you have the Impi. A unit that not only gets to fire a preemptive ranged hit at the enemy, they also gain XP from it. Having that ranged attack gives you a huge advantage against units of equal, and even slightly higher strength. It means even if you don't have the combat advantage (which you likely will from all those promotions) you can still gain the upper hand by dealing additional damage at the start of your attack. An Impi army alone will wreak havoc and tear through enemy lines, an Impi army with half maintenance, 25% cheaper promotions, +1 movement, higher flanking bonuses, and resilience against bombardment is nothing short of unstoppable. As icing on the cake, the extra ranged attack gives experience, accelerating promotion rate even more.
Sure, once you hit Rifling you don't have Impis anymore, but what you do have is Riflemen who have far more promotions than your run-of-the-mill unit, including some special ones that give significant bonuses. And you have a ton of cities that you've captured during the Impi rampage; you can just keep going. From there a beeling to GWI and infantry secures a Domination Victory.
So how is it that one of the best (arguably the best) domination civ in the game is a low-mid tier?

59saintdane said:

Also, what's with Ethiopia's very high placement? Sure they have a significant combat bonus vs larger civs, but that's not really suited to domination since you acquire more cities as you conquer--same with the UU. So they have good defense, but other than that? Well of course the Stele's a great building, but you need many cities to make use of it which reduces the effectiveness of the UA and UU. I wouldn't dispute that they're a good civ, but I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact they're ranked higher than Persia.

Zulus--underrated IMO. To me, they're the most deadly warmongers in the game. Any of their three uniques ALONE would be a formidable force to go up against, but all three together? They can get really insane. First, the UA (actually hard to do them 1 at a time because they synergize so well): Faster promotions means stronger units. Also, reduced maintencance means they can field a larger army. So they have a larger-than-average army of better-than-average units, already decent. The barracks replacement: free promotion with +1 movement, flanking bonuses and defense against ranged attacks, and unlocks 2 more which give combat bonus as well as flanking and ranged defense. The +1 movement is the best part, making them like Persia during a Golden age. The flanking bonus is especially good because a) more mobility means more opportunity to flank your enemies and b) fielding a larger army means a greater chance to crowd your enemies and take advantage of those huge flanking modifiers. Last, defense against ranged means they can take cities more easily with less ranged/siege support. Note that access to more unique promos works with their UA because they can pick up those once they've got the key ones rather than quickly run out of good ones due to their accelerated leveling.
And then you have the Impi. A unit that not only gets to fire a preemptive ranged hit at the enemy, they also gain XP from it. Having that ranged attack gives you a huge advantage against units of equal, and even slightly higher strength. It means even if you don't have the combat advantage (which you likely will from all those promotions) you can still gain the upper hand by dealing additional damage at the start of your attack. An Impi army alone will wreak havoc and tear through enemy lines, an Impi army with half maintenance, 25% cheaper promotions, +1 movement, higher flanking bonuses, and resilience against bombardment is nothing short of unstoppable. As icing on the cake, the extra ranged attack gives experience, accelerating promotion rate even more.
Sure, once you hit Rifling you don't have Impis anymore, but what you do have is Riflemen who have far more promotions than your run-of-the-mill unit, including some special ones that give significant bonuses. And you have a ton of cities that you've captured during the Impi rampage; you can just keep going. From there a beeling to GWI and infantry secures a Domination Victory.
So how is it that one of the best (arguably the best) domination civ in the game is a low-mid tier?

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Its been said before at length so I'll be concise; Ethiopia is ranked so high because it guarantees religion and provides early game defense when you are the most vulnerable against Deity AI.

Everybody has a pet civ for domination; Can you explain how the Zulu are better than the Chinese or Mongolians for Domination? Range UU are almost always better than melee units.

59saintdane said:

Zulus--underrated IMO. To me, they're the most deadly warmongers in the game. Any of their three uniques ALONE would be a formidable force to go up against.

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Well the Impi by itself isn't really impressive.

59saintdane said:

So how is it that one of the best (arguably the best) domination civ in the game is a low-mid tier?

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Because this list isn't really an objective list based on HoF results or anything like that, but on one person's opinion.

I'm not a great player but I've played enough Deity games to see that Shaka is formidable even when the AI plays him, and in the hands of a seasoned Deity pro he is completely OP.

My Deity win with Shaka was so easy compared to any of my other Deity DomV games. Basically, the difficulty with other units is that their 'edge' doesn't last very well. For example, XBs get fairly stomped within 20 turns of you upgrading your CBs. But Impis last a lot longer, and you can have HORDES of them without crippling your economy, and if you go Honour Opener > Liberty Opener > Left side of Honour > Left side of Liberty > Right side of Honour > Right side of Liberty, AND get SoZ and Pyramids, you have a good shot of winning before Artillery, which I've not managed with any other civ.

So yes, vastly underrated, and yet more evidence that this list is silly. And for those that complain about how Impis are melee, please understand that just because you're building Impis DOESNT mean that you WON'T also build ranged units. It's just that what makes Zulus better than vanilla warmongers is that while the latter puts meat shields ahead of the ranged units, and they get shredded to preserve the life and promotions of your ranged units, the Impis can hold their own until the Industrial era, and many of them will become upgraded almost unkillable and you'll still have your Range + Logistics behind them.

I find it crazy that I have to type all this to extol the virtues of Zulu domination and Swedish CV. You guys should just PLAY these civs. I'm no Deity wizard and yet these are easy civs to play with.

consentient said:

Because this list isn't really an objective list based on HoF results or anything like that, but on one person's opinion.

I'm not a great player but I've played enough Deity games to see that Shaka is formidable even when the AI plays him, and in the hands of a seasoned Deity pro he is completely OP.

My Deity win with Shaka was so easy compared to any of my other Deity DomV games. Basically, the difficulty with other units is that their 'edge' doesn't last very well. For example, XBs get fairly stomped within 20 turns of you upgrading your CBs. But Impis last a lot longer, and you can have HORDES of them without crippling your economy, and if you go Honour Opener > Liberty Opener > Left side of Honour > Left side of Liberty > Right side of Honour > Right side of Liberty, AND get SoZ and Pyramids, you have a good shot of winning before Artillery, which I've not managed with any other civ.

So yes, vastly underrated, and yet more evidence that this list is silly. And for those that complain about how Impis are melee, please understand that just because you're building Impis DOESNT mean that you WON'T also build ranged units. It's just that what makes Zulus better than vanilla warmongers is that while the latter puts meat shields ahead of the ranged units, and they get shredded to preserve the life and promotions of your ranged units, the Impis can hold their own until the Industrial era, and many of them will become upgraded almost unkillable and you'll still have your Range + Logistics behind them.

I find it crazy that I have to type all this to extol the virtues of Zulu domination and Swedish CV. You guys should just PLAY these civs. I'm no Deity wizard and yet these are easy civs to play with.

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While I agree that Zulu and Sweden are powerful civs, I think the issue with this tiering system is (and has always been) that certain civs are better at certain *types* of victory than others, and certain maps, and certain starts, etc. etc.

Any list that doesn't break up the rankings by difficulty level, victory type, map type, map size, and even game speed, is going to average out all the awesomeness of individual civs, and the only civs left on the top tier are going to be *generically* good civs. (Which aren't necessarily the best ones for any given situation)

However, since the stated goal was to do basically that, you'll just have to accept that Sweden and Zulu are not "top-tier" by the stated definition.

Also, it's totally a matter of opinion. I would put Attila as top-tier even under the OP's restrictions. The OP isn't specifying "fast" wins, but "reliable easy wins", and nothing is more reliable or easy than wiping out your continent by t100 and having all those CS to yourself, + a few wonders, no matter *what* the condition. However, Attila suffers on small island starts. And the OP has homogenized this list to include ALL map types. So, Even though Attila is probably the easiest civ to consistently win with on MOST map types, he isn't on ALL, and so he gets put down to lower-middle tier. Eh, to each their own.

Ideally, the HOF *would* be the indicator. But, the HOF entries are heavily influenced by 4 factors which make it not a good sample set.

1) Gauntlets.

Gauntlets determine the most-played civs more than any other factor. Gauntlets also reward fastest-finish, which skews the results further. Gauntlets are almost never held on Deity, level, resulting in waaay less Deity entries.

2) Insufficient sample size.

Even if you don't take into consideration #1, there just aren't enough HOF entries.

3) Turn-of-victory & Score are *not* an indicator of how easy the win was.

I would argue (and have many times) that Time-of-victory is *usually* an indication of how easy the win *could have been* if you weren't going for a speed record. The best argument here is simply this: The AI *struggles* to win before t315 in BNW. Meaning that if you can win by t250, even if you barely pulled it off, timing everything just perfectly... well, you could *easily* have won by t300 in the same playthrough, with significantly *less* risk.

4) Re-rolls. The HOF is full of 5-salt starts, or perfect Petra starts, or 7-fishing boat coastal capitals with 3 NW in the first 3 cities. Not a good indicator of a "typical" game.

That being said, there's a *damn good reason* Attila has the fastest victories in the HOF. If you don't think every t110 domination by attila couldn't have been an eventual EASY Science, Cultural or Diplomatic victory, you're fooling yourself. ;-)

Ok, I'll shut up about the Attila thing for another few months now.

Mongolia is a better dom civ as is China. China is probably more comparable so I'll just make the comparison with them. You will net more gold savings with a 3 city or more opening with paper makers over the Zulu UA. The Zulu need to divert from the tech path or get a late start on warmongering by virtue of having to build their UB prior to units.

UNique range units are superior to melee units. If I need to explain why I can but I think it's an accepted principle. When I warmonger with china I like to go liberty plus commerce and use the free pillage of LKs plus 1 turn pillage repair combined with pyramids to keep them bear fully health. In my mind free pillage is superior to a small amount of damage from ranged attacks. The impis ability to upgrade to riflemen is a small condolence when the game is already decided.

The UA of China; faster GG spawns and double the damage bonus is far more versatile than flanking bonuses etc that the Zulu get from their tech path.

In summary paper makers are equal to the Zulu UA and eclipse the Zulu gold savings once it becomes obsolete. CKN are superior to Impi which can be replicated or surpassed in quality by LKs, the Chinese UA is more versatile than the benefits from the Zulu UB.

EditCromagnus not everyone that can win on Deity can wipe a continent in 100 turns. It's not like its automatic

Resipsa said:

EditCromagnus not everyone that can win on Deity can wipe a continent in 100 turns. It's not like its automatic

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Isn't it? How many times have you actually *tried* to win with Attila on Diety Continents? I mean, there's a lot of theory flying around, but I cleared a Pangaea with Attila by t111 on my third *ever* try with him (on Deity)... I hadn't even refined the strategy. I think my second try was t158. (First try was a failure... so yeah)

It wasn't until someone (Fallen_Kings I think) came on these forums and said t100 was achievable that I even attempted it. And voila, third try I came pretty darn close.

Sure, I'd racked up a fair number of Deity Domination wins by then, but... I'd never attempted horse archer rush.

(To be fair, I did some three practice runs (Chieftain, Prince and Emperor) before attempting Deity, if memory serves)

I'm not saying it's *easy*, but compared to most Deity wins, I'd consider it *more* reliable. /shrug

About the Impi/Zulus: The Impi is an absolutely devastating unit, not just on its own merits, but for the synergy with the Ikanda. Using Military Tradition, the Impi gains 10.5 XP for every attack it makes (+3 for the Ranged attack, +7.5 for the Melee attack).

Combine the above with reduced Promotion cost and it doesn't take long to develop a core of nigh-invulnerable Impi. The buffalo promotions add a slew of nice bonuses that can be stacked with other promotions (e.g. Cover 1 & 2) to make the unit nearly bulletproof. A group of Impi with all the Buffalo promotions, Cover 1 & 2, and some Medic promotions will simply never die. Ever.

That said... this list ISN'T for Pangea where the warmongers can Zerg everyone off the board in 100 turns. Once a mass Embarkation over to another continent is involved, the process slows down and there's potential to have to deal with a runaway overseas. If you've been a bad boy on Continent 'A' but Alexander's been equally nasty over on Continent 'B', you're probably behind overall.

TheGrumpyBuddha said:

Take. It. Back.

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No. Realistically speaking they're probably going to generate +3 Culture at best, and that's for any Moai in the middle of a line of them. The others will generate 2. Problem is that circumstances can dictate that you break that line (luxury resource, strategic resource, even a bonus resource). The +1 Gold at Flight is a pittance, and the 10% defensive bonus is really weak compared to the Kasbah or Chateau's 50% for the unit in it.

This comes at the cost of needing to spend worker time to get multiples of these up, and at opportunity cost of food/production that you need. While the tourism is later good, you can't afford to use these things in any serious number early-on, especially not on a map with so much water that Polynesia's UA matters in any way.

Soffacet said:

Persia is a beastly domination civ.

Persia’s UA + UB approximately replicates Universal Suffrage from the Freedom Ideology. This means that Persia can access one of the most important aspects of Freedom (50+ turn GA from timed natural GA and stockpiled Artists) without actually adopting Freedom. The main bummer with the usual 50+ GA strat is that you can’t easily combine the absurd income with a cost efficiency policy since those are from other Ideologies. But obviously, Persia does not face this problem. Ideally you will use the ~permanent GA and Mobilization (Autocracy) to purchase hordes of units in a city where you have stacked Barracks/Armory/Base/BGate/HEpic, not to mention Total War, Clauswitz, and +10%/+1 movement because Persia. Combine with (rail)road to the front line for best results.

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I hadn't considered this before, but it seems really powerful now that you mention it. By that time in the game the player really should be caught up to or surpassing the AI in tech, and then using Clauswitz and a truly huge Golden Age you could clean the board in a grand Zerg rush.

... I think Persia will be my next game. I've really under-played them.

Cromagnus said:

Moves/turn is everything. That's why Persia is so good.

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This. It's also why Zulus are so powerful. They also get the move/turn bonus--but not just in a golden age, ALL THE TIME.

Okay so I'm going to have a look at the criticism of Zulu that's been presented and while I agree with some of the points I think some factors have been overlooked.

Resipsa said:

Mongolia is a better dom civ as is China. China is probably more comparable so I'll just make the comparison with them. You will net more gold savings with a 3 city or more opening with paper makers over the Zulu UA. The Zulu need to divert from the tech path or get a late start on warmongering by virtue of having to build their UB prior to units.

UNique range units are superior to melee units. If I need to explain why I can but I think it's an accepted principle. When I warmonger with china I like to go liberty plus commerce and use the free pillage of LKs plus 1 turn pillage repair combined with pyramids to keep them bear fully health. In my mind free pillage is superior to a small amount of damage from ranged attacks. The impis ability to upgrade to riflemen is a small condolence when the game is already decided.

The UA of China; faster GG spawns and double the damage bonus is far more versatile than flanking bonuses etc that the Zulu get from their tech path.

In summary paper makers are equal to the Zulu UA and eclipse the Zulu gold savings once it becomes obsolete. CKN are superior to Impi which can be replicated or surpassed in quality by LKs, the Chinese UA is more versatile than the benefits from the Zulu UB.

EditCromagnus not everyone that can win on Deity can wipe a continent in 100 turns. It's not like its automatic

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1. You say that Paper Makers are equal to the Zulu UA. They're not. Say you have 7 cities or so with a paper maker, that's going to net you 21 GPT. Sure that's more than what you'll get as Zulus early on, but once your army gets really big and the game progresses, unit maintenance really starts to ramp up. So while paper makers are better gold-wise early on, I think unit maintenance scales up fast enough for the Zulu UA to eventually overtake it. Which one of these is better is hard to say, but you've also forgotten the second and more important part of the UA, lowered promotion costs. I've gone over this in my OP and won't again, but China has nothing to compare to it.
2. You talk about how the game is already decided when Impis upgrade to Riflemen, but then you talk about the UA obsoleting like it's still significant at that point. Pick one or the other please. You can't bash them both ways. But I'd just like to point out, if you beeline plastics (which you should be doing anyway for the labs) impis upgraded to infantry will easily clear whatever civs are left on the board, which probably aren't very many.
3. LKs superior to Impis? What're you talking about? Are you seriously suggesting that a free pillage is worth more than all the bonuses Impis get? First of all Impis have +1 movement, meaning that they can use that movement on a pillage leaving them no worse off than an LK. Second, Zulu can buy them as well, and a Zulu LK is better than a Chinese LK because of the bonuses from the UA and UB.
4. You say CKN are superior to Impis. Both get an extra ranged attack so what we're left with is a pikeman vs a slightly weaker crossbowman, and sure, crossbows are better because they're ranged. BUT: Impis benefit from +1 movement and other bonuses as well as lower promotion costs, while CKNs only get that +15% strength from the UA. (Impis can probably equal that because they get more promotions). Also, because Impis have a melee attack, they get much more XP than the CKNs, which combined with lower promo costs means they'll easily eclipse them by having a much higher level. You also have to consider that going for Machinery is going to delay your Education (or if you go for Edu first you get CKNs MUCH later than Impis), while Civil Service is a tech that you're always going to go for because of the growth boost and the fact that it's on the way to Edu.
5. Faster GG spawns and higher GG bonus: well, GGs are based on the EXPERIENCE your units earn in combat. An Impi earns 7 per attack (5 + 2) while a CKN only earns 4 (2 + 2), even with the 50% bonus it's still not giving as many points as an Impi would. When it comes to the higher GG bonus from the UA, the fact that Impis are going to get so many more promotions in the long run, as well as some extra ones that are quite useful, will easily eclipse that flat +15% bonus that China gets.
I don't get how you say that the Chinese UA is "more versatile" than Zulu UB when +1 movement is CLEARLY superior to a small strength buff. Not to mention the other bonuses they get from the free promo and access to more.

1. Unit Maintenance Reduction only applies to Melee units, what ratios of Melee units are you talking about where your gold savings is greater than 21 GPT in the Mid game? I typically have 12 CKN and maybe 6 LKs that form three armies. Are you really running around with more than 10-12 Impis in a game at any given moment? I mean I make more when I play the Zulu but its probably a 50/50 ratio for 10/8-12/12 units.

2. The Papermakers gold isn't significant in the Renaissance Era and beyond but its worth mentioning that it doesn't obsolete. I'm not trying to have it both ways I'm merely explain why at the very least Papermakers are equivalent to the ZULU unique ability. The promo stuff isn't considerable when you can have a melee unit or multiple melee units focused in a turn.

3. Yes, I'm seriously suggesting that free pillage is superior to plus one movement, in the abstract because you can pillage twice in a turn and still attack. This ignores the UA and the UB because you are ignoring China's UA and UB in the comparison.

4. CKN don't take damage when they attack and their ranged attack is considerable more powerful than the Zulu's ranged attack. You said it yourself, "and sure, crossbows are better because they're ranged."
Persia's +1 bonus is so good because it allows you move in position and fire with ranged units, particularly catapults and other siege engines. It has a nominal benefit to Melee units.
Experience doesn't help melee units as much as it does ranged units, march is nice but its not really comparable to +1 range or logistics.
If I'm going for Domination on Pangaea I don't really feel like Education is needed. If its a continents style game, I don't need that much time to clear the continent so its not a problem to delay Machinery.
Comparatively The Zulu have to divert to Bronze working prior to Philosophy unless you don't even tech Philosophy which I admit is an option on Pangaea. But if you don't you're pretty all-in at that point.
5. The plus +1 movement only applies to pregunpowder melee units, the 15% flat bonus to all units is better because it all goes back to the following; "and sure, crossbows are better because they're ranged." Ranged Units are so much better than melee units.

You forget that the most important thing about Zulu is faster promotions. You can get to logistics xbows very easily. CKNs are quite squishy because of their low ranged strength (ranged units defend against ranged attack using ranged strength)

1. I'm not going to go into the math here, because the gold savings isn't the most important part for either civ. Thinking about it more, I think that Paper Makers are probably slightly better for the gold savings, though Zulu UA might overtake them as maintenance scales up. Not really sure though.
2. Promotion stuff isn't considerable? Look, as I'm heading into the Industrial Era my hyper-promoted Impis are sometimes going up against RIFLEMEN--and winning. That's how powerful a lot of stacked promotions can be. Faster promotions means a much better unit.
3. If you have a worker repairing the improvement Impis can pillage twice and attack as well. Also, their +1 movement is *much* more versatile. They can use it to cover ground faster, catch fleeing opponents, retreat when wounded, exploit flanking bonuses, maneuver past the ZOC, and so on. Don't underestimate the value of movement points. Further, even if free pillage was better than +1 movement, look at the other bonuses they get. Impi: Free ranged attack, 25% cheaper promos, 40% faster XP gain (from ranged strike), increased flanking bonus, +10% defense against ranged attacks, and that's just going to get a whole lot better when the promotions start rolling in. LK: +15% strength from the GG. You're not seriously suggesting that +15% strength is better, are you?
Also, Zulus can build them too, so LKs aren't a valid argument against Impis. Zulu LKs are better than Chinese LKs simply because the bonuses Zulus get for melee units are so good.
4. In general, yes, ranged units are superior. But Impis aren't just any old melee unit, they're a really, really, really good melee unit. Thing is, Impis aren't for taking cities. Siege-promoted ones can help with it, but siege units are always going to be there to help. Impis are for clearing the enemy units. And with lots of promotions and a free ranged attack, they can do that quite easily. They take damage when they attack, sure, but with March, Medic, ranged defence and promotions, they can nullify a lot of that damage, and easily retreat to heal when at risk of death. On the other hand, as Vitruvius pointed out, CKNs are actually relatively fragile. If your enemy focuses down on one of them with several melee or ranged units, they can probably kill it. On the other hand the melee Impi takes damage when attacking but heals it off and defends a lot better, making them harder to snipe.
Vitruvius also makes an interesting point. Let's say that Zulus decided to spam Xbows. Not a good use of their uniques, but just for theory--with reduced promotion costs it doesn't take too long to get to Logistics, and once you've gone 6-7 levels, that reduced promo cost is already getting you an extra promotion to make up for free logistics, and they'll just be better from that point. Considering that Zulu's spamming Xbows is a wasteful tactic and it still might end up working almost as well as China, imagine what they're like when they exploit their Uniques to the fullest.
The thing I don't like about skipping Education is if you take a little to long to wipe out the planet, you're going to get screwed over because your science is going to be terrible. If anyone reaches the Industrial era and still has possession of their cap, you have logistics Xbows going up against gatlings, rifles and cavalry. You'd get absolutely wrecked. And a lot of that is situational, if you end up having to fight guys like Shaka, Attila, Oda, etc. that could delay you enough to make your tech loss significant. I'll also point out though that even if you skip Edu, Machinery still takes longer than Civil Service, so Impis will be steamrolling enemies earlier than CKNs, earning more XP and taking more cities. Machinery also means you'll be getting Civil Service late, a key tech for growth.
5. Absolutely wrong. If you build a rifleman from scratch it won't get the +1 movement. But you'd never do that, you'd upgrade Impis, and their +1 movement promotion absolutely carries over on upgrade. I'd honestly like to hear everyone's opinion on this, which is better, +1 movement or +15% strength?
But don't you dare try to play the Impi's benefits as just +1 movement. They also get a free promotion and the ability to get a ton more than any other unit. That's one of the most important aspect of the Zulus, one you consistently try to neglect but one that's incredibly powerful.

Actually, let me ask you this. If the zulus are so bad, why is it that Shaka is one of the most feared civs to start next to? And people generally don't go "Oh god, I started next to China, I'm screwed" at least afaik.
Also: Even if China is better than Zulus, I hope I've at least shown that it wouldn't be so overwhelmingly as to be 2 tiers higher. Zulus definitely deserve to be mid-tier, I'd argue at least upper-mid.

The Tier listing is set up to be balanced win types, we are sort of off topic focusing on Domination Victories and the Zulu are sort of focused on DOM I think that's why they aren't rated higher. "Shrugs"

I also don't know how an Impi or any Zulu melee unit with +1 move can pillage twice and still attack; one turn to pillage, one turn to move to another space(Never mind you aren't moving two spaces in your count you are simply double pillaging the same tile.) A tactic I use is to cycle slightly damaged LKs toward and then away from the city I'm sieging. I couldn't do that with Impis moving 2 spaces and double pillaging. Personal preference, I guess.

The Zulu AI are pretty feared because of the Deity production bonus, their ability to zerg you with units that have Deity Promotions, and most importantly their predisposition to making a lot of units, You can't focus them down fast enough with your meager amount of units if you aren't prepared.

Human players can't replicate this because they don't have the production bonus that the AI has, a human player has to be cost efficient with their units.

Well other civs like Mongolia and China are heavily biased toward Dom and they're higher than Zulu.
In any case, this debate has hopefully shown that Zulu and China are at least comparable in terms of military strength and there isn't necessarily a clear winner between the two--definitely not worth a two tier difference. I prefer Zulu, Resipsa prefers China but both are quite strong. So I'm advocating to bump them up a tier, maybe even two.

Also just a side note regarding LKs, Zulu LKs can pillage three different improvements and attack on the same turn, which I think is pretty awesome.

Actually if they have +1 movement (do they get +1?) pillage six times and attack with Liberty and Pyramids. 1) [Free]pillage/repair 2)[Free]Pillage 3. Move to next tile(1 move) 4. [Free]pillage/repair 5. [Free]Pillage 6. Move to next tile(2nd move) . . .

Yeah if you have a worker on the improvements you can pillage up to six times (although it would be counterproductive after the first 4).
I now see your point about free pillage and how it's superior to +1 move in some circumstances. But free pillage and +1 move is even better. Being able to fully heal with a turn of pillaging (as the Zulus) is pretty awesome.

59saintdane said:

Yeah if you have a worker on the improvements you can pillage up to six times (although it would be counterproductive after the first 4).
I now see your point about free pillage and how it's superior to +1 move in some circumstances. But free pillage and +1 move is even better. Being able to fully heal with a turn of pillaging (as the Zulus) is pretty awesome.

Click to expand...

Find a razed city with improvements. Bring 4 workers and a LK over. Profit.

Vitruvius said:

Find a razed city with improvements. Bring 4 workers and a LK over. Profit.

Click to expand...

What's an LK?