Screaming Orange Pumpkins - RR16B - It's tax day again ...

ok we evidentely went to pretty short turn sets which is fine...so I assume I have to put plan for ~7 turns too.

I think you did great timmy.

My general thinking is

1) send indeed worker1 straight to gold, no roads, it's not needed now - it's 6 turns, then move on the forested GH the 7th turn

2) capital queues worker before barracks due in 5

3) worker moves 1N and chops forest into worker shortening 3rd worker by 1T

4) worker2 moves on grassland hill and finishes improvement

5) capital grows slowly while building barracks->vulture*

6) city 2 after warrior vulture*

7) worker after chopping goes to chop another tree 1W of capital

The roading towards amsterdam will be done in next TS I suppose with the worker1, maybe with chopping that GH, but that decision is not critical in next 7 turns.

edit:

as for techs

finish pottery, start hunting...

I'd rather get that gold up asap. Send both workers to plains hill (1S of Eridu), build road in 1t (saves turn later coming back), move to gold, improve it, road in 1 turn.

Eridu can build Worker 3 at size 3. Workers can move to forest 1E of Eridu to chop it out after gold, or we can 1 pop the worker when it can. I'd prefer not to whip Eridu though. 1 chop should be enough.

Meanwhile, Uruk just grows and possibly whip barracks or granary at size 4 or 5. Uruk should switch off copper mine and work 2F tiles for now to grow faster.

edit: Once Eridu hits size 3 and start worker, we might switch corn to Uruk for a couple of turns to grow faster. We can do this periodically as needed.

Whatever we do, we want Uruk to grow

At pop 6 Uruk can work clams, northern corn, copper, GH and 2PH for 12F, 19H which is quite respectable and is probably an argument for not whipping (and so we can probably omit granary for the moment). At pop 5 Eridu can work gold, 3GH and corn for 11F, 12H. That's quite a few worker turns to get the mines established in time so probably worth getting 3rd worker in Eridu.
The mirco would be quite fiddly.

ok since I don't basically agree with last 2 posters over where to build 3rd worker and how to manage the worker situation and want to hold onto my PPP

I put it in spreadsheet.

So would be great if other players took it and made their lists with their micro suggestions and make the calculations what we will achieve in next 7 turns.

vranasm: if you've calculated that its better if worker 3 comes from Uruk then I'll defer to your analysis (I had a look at the spreadhseet, it seems very clever).

Now my brain will TRULY hurt. Never have tried to drill down to this level of detail before...

Give me a bit.

LKendter said:

Now my brain will TRULY hurt. Never have tried to drill down to this level of detail before...

Give me a bit.

Click to expand...

if someone wants to double team workers on roading towards gold he surely have to come with analysis why it will be better then having 3rd worker in 4 turns and 4 improvements in capital in 7 turns

made there a small error with calculations in capital we will miss there 6 hammers, but doesn't change much the result of having worker in 4 turns and barracks in 1t after 7 turns

@pigswill

I didn't do L's variant with worker size 3 in city 2

but capital produces 13 hammers/turn into worker (can be finished in 5 turns without chop, the chop just shortens by 1 turn) whereas city 2 will produce 10 hammers/turn into worker AND will start on it 2 turns later meaning without chops it will not come out before 7 turns

not sure how we could even argue from where the 3rd worker will come quicker.

You are putting too much weight into getting worker 3 faster. I'm not even worried about worker 3, which is why I suggest building it in slower grow Eridu. In fact, I would say avoid the 3rd worker for some time. We can capture one or whip one later. 2 is fine for 2 cities if we use them correctly.

I do want that gold up asap -the sooner it is up the sooner we are getting the major benefit. Calculate that.

Uruk will be in fine shape soon to take some whips. That is why we let it grow now. If we were slow expanding, then I would delay a gran and also build Worker 3 faster. In the case of war, I would whip a gran at size 5 or 6. We can then whip some Vultures with no issue.

We need to grow our cites and build Vultures

lymond said:

You are putting too much weight into getting worker 3 faster. I'm not even worried about worker 3, which is why I suggest building it in slower grow Eridu. In fact, I would say avoid the 3rd worker for some time. We can capture one or whip one later. 2 is fine for 2 cities if we use them correctly.

I do want that gold up asap -the sooner it is up the sooner we are getting the major benefit. Calculate that.

Uruk will be in fine shape soon to take some whips. That is why we let it grow now. If we were slow expanding, then I would delay a gran and also build Worker 3 faster. In the case of war, I would whip a gran at size 5 or 6. We can then whip some Vultures with no issue.

We need to grow our cites and build Vultures

Click to expand...

sorry but whips are not how axe rushes are done, read ton of stuff knowing that whip come at last turn after the main force is ready, chops otoh...

btw we are not in slavery yet (which was pointed out by timmy in his report)

you will have to put out some numbers for comparision. I had enough of games where I had to play on base of others gameplans knowing it's plainly bad.

edit:
btw when we're at it granary = almost 2 vultures...

I'm not going to argue this with you, V. I given my thoughts and advice, which I think is quite solid. The team can choose not to take my advice as is usually the case. Won't be much harm either way.

Ofc, we are going to chop out a bunch of vultures. The gran is for later when the cap has grown large. Very simple whip that itself can complete a vulture.

Well, we should have switch to slavery while the settler was in transit as I mentioned. Opportunity lost.

ok just to get some perspective what I am talking about in mine scenario...

the cap produces 8 hammers right now. After it grows to size 4 at t47 it will work 11 hammers (that's basically vulture each 3 turns) if it grows to size 5 (not sure the time) it can add that plains hill for 15 hammers almost vulture/2 turns...it's almost the same effectiveness as with whip without whipping since you can't whip each turn

we have right now 6 trees around capital for 120 hammers, 40 I advise to use into barracks and worker, the rest 4 (80 hammers) can be thrown into vultures in cap

I want to attack before T60, that means after mine TS if I go with my plan we will have 1 unpromoted vulture, almost rax and 10 turns to throw out at least 5-6 more vultures.

both capital workers can go to chop 2 diferent trees for 40 hammers, capital will produce in the time 28 hammers (next 4 turns after mine TS) meaning 3 vultures in itself. There has to be used caution with not OFing the production cost of course with the chops.

you could repeat in next 4 turns basically the same meaning in next 8-10 turns the capital should produce 6 vultures without any whips, but no more infra of course.

city 2 was meant as support production (no rax) so no need to milk it too much, but still should produce at least 1-2 more vultures in those 10 turns (the basic production will be something along the line of 2H+3H+3H --> 80 hammers without whips/chops)

third worker should road towards AI so at T55 we can move the force and attack around T58.

No whips, no granary, no complications...just pure production with enough worker chops ;-)

Again, you are placing to much on my mention of granary. Granary would come into play probably after the first wave army. Whipping would come later with reinforcements and once the forests are chopped. Chopping forest is a no-brainer - I never questioned that. However, I don't want to stagnate the cap at present but rather let it grow....fast. This cap can be whipped at some point. There's not the same sense of preservation in the case where you get a Library up quick to run specialists - that won't happen for quite some time.

I'd rather have the cap producing vultures now and growing.

If you want a worker, build it in city 2.

Regardless, we need to keep balance here which is why asap gold is important. It's not like we are doing rush/recovery here in a normal game. We need to get through these dink techs as fast as possible and start accumulating lots of gold.

Part of my problem trying to sync up with people this game is I rarely do early attacks, and don't think I've ever done it from just two cities. I am not use to having to explain detailed worker actions like this despite 50+ civ4 SG.

I want 3 workers. I think the team is starting to agree on this, not just from where.
I want to connect gold with a road.
Uruk can get up to 19 shields with gold connected - it would work corn, clams, copper hill, grassland hill and two plain hills. This needs a lot of worker turns, and why I want worker #3.
The FP for Eridu doesn't need to be farmed soon. At size 5, it can work FP, Corn, gold and two plains hills. This gives 12 shields and 3 turn vultures.
The above are my mid-term goals for our two cities.

Worker / build plans for 7 turns:
Eridu - finish warrior, then vulture. This city will take longer to build the worker. Swap to the flood plains tile to grow faster.
Uruk - swap immediately to worker. We will grow into unimproved tiles in 5 turns, so would rather get the next worker built.

Worker plans - send both workers to the hill south of Eridu. Place a road on this tile, then move to gold hill and start mining. The gold tile will be ready on turn 43 (with road), and Eridu switches to working it. On turn 44, save worker turns going down the road and still mining the plains hill south of Eridu.
Newly built worker in Uruk will mine the hills north of the city. Those 3 shields will become 4, and we get the chop benefit.

If my calcs are correct, at the end of turn 45 we should have Uruk size 3, size 4 in 3 turns. 6 turns to the hill is mined. I don't want to chop the hill, as that hill is the most shields to work at size 4. The barrack is due in 4 turns.
Eridu is up to size 4, working the just mined hill, 9 SPT, and first vulture almost done. We only need to mine the desert hill to wrap the city up. At that point one worker can chop around Eridu, and the other goes to Uruk to finish things up.

My goal is wrapping up Eridu, and on to Uruk. Since both our workers are committed at this point to Eridu, I prefer to get the worker done in Uruk rather than have a lot of turns working unimproved tiles.

At this point I all I can do is throw my ideas out there. I really hope this is helping...

Capital is built on eles so all we need for +1 happy is hunting, mining the gold is cool for commerce, roading the gold may be less a priority (but given the worker(s) are already there it would free workers up for other stuff later).

LK, At least we agree with my plan for the 2 workers to get to the gold and mine it . I disagree with mining the PH though afterwards. Eridu would be better served by a mined GH, but that can wait. My idea was to put a chop into the 3rd worker in Eridu using the 2 workers. After that the worker can be split such that 1 returns to Uruk to complete improvements and chop. 2nd moves to grass hill above Eridu to mine and road, then continue on with road, OR move onto forest GH west of Eridu and chop first, possibly into worker, but I expect it will be done by then, so it could go into Vulture.

Again, I really feel strongly that Uruk should not be stagnated at this point, but rather allowed to grow fast. Ultimately this will allow it to work many more tiles sooner and possible take a key whip or two later. I, ofc, concede to team wish, but I strongly advise against stagnating Uruk at present.

LK - I think some of us are getting a bit into SGOTM mode because this SG is a bit more competitive. I think once we get past the early phase, there will be less worker micro detail. The early turns are just so very important.

I'm fine with Hunting next. At this point it doesn't matter since we are likely to self tech all the worker techs.

At size 5 Eridu will still have excess food - are we planing to get to size 6? I wanted the plains hill to maximize shields at size 5.

As for chop, I prefer to go Uruk. I prefer to chop into the Vultures that will have a barracks.

Grass Hill > Plains Hill, LK

We will get chops into Uruk certainly, let's get the gold up asap and then balance the worker turns out. We still need a couple more improvements up and then we can go chop suey.

guys double teaming workers with moving into hills is the worst thing we can do right now.

no point in roading gold since we will have +1 happy from hunting, I can easily adjust the tech path (switch hunting now, pottery next) plenty of time for hunting to kick in.

if we double team workers into gold we lose at least 2 worker turns in most important part of game.

You all seem to be blindsightet by the gold...it will come in 6 turns with 1 worker and that's fine.

The gold is weak tile in a sense since it has very low basic production of food/hammers and the commerce is not that much needed on cheap techs

hunting is in 4 turns without gold right now.

Double teaming workers will delay the attack date by at least 2 turns

edit:

checked the xls I made and the gold mine should be finished at T43 with 1 worker

let's say I go with double workers and road that PH
T38 is move to PH
T39 road PH
T40 move to gold
T41 start mine
T42 gold mine finished.

I gained 1 turn on gold mine...yupiee... now I have to move 1 worker back to forest near cap to chop (I hope the road will help to get there in 1 turn) starts chopping T44

worker 1 moves to GH T43 1 turn sooner

but generally we gained 1 turn of gold in cost of 1 forest chopped in capital and we are 1 turn later with 2nd chop near capital

if we even road the gold then T43 is roading

first chop in capital starts T45. chop on GH starts T45 too (the same as with my PPP)

Worker 2 from capital will not come out T42 but T43, capital will grow in T48 (not T47) and the grass mine will be finished T46 (not T45) meaning capital will have 11H production T48 not T47.

Everything is delayed a lot.

I don't have the time to go back and redo another game plan, so go with what you feel best.
It is clear you and I see things to differently to come to agreement.

1 turn delay is a lot? I guess that's the difference between deity and emperor level players .

LK, look on the bright side, by the time you're next up the intense micro discussions will be easing off a bit.